I like how you think the legal protections someone gets against arbitrary imprisonment and/or execution are based around how much the court costs are.
/facepalm indeed.
I like how you think the legal protections someone gets against arbitrary imprisonment and/or execution are based around how much the court costs are.
/facepalm indeed.
What does keeping the option open to waterboarding a known terrorist - caught in the act no less - have to do with justice and freedom? You can still try him in a court of law after you waterbord him. We will still be free during his waterboarding, and after. I don't look at it as Americans being afraid (like too many on here like to conjure up so their argument looks more sensational), the blue collar (F, even white collar) Americans I know (and that spans a wide gamut of people) aren't afraid: They're F'ing tired of these scumbags. They don't want to hear that the ACLU doesn't like the temperature in the guys room, and they want to meet with him to see if he's doing alright. Their attitude is F this guy, and F the ACLU. The Libs on this board will swear left and right that I'm lying, that it's hearsay, etc. etc. I guaranFingT you though, you take a cross country drive across the US and ask all the average everyday people you meet, they will tell you by far exactly what I just told you.
OK?
As opposed to people agaist torture no matter what, who would be quivering armchair twats as well? Again, you keep using afraid, quivering, armchair, twats....all sensationalistic, all misapplied.
Don't F'ing care dude, doesn't bother me a bit on the strong words, just the sensationalistic and misapplied ones.
Chuck
Don't get the point of waterboarding the underwear bomber, he knows nothing about future attacks, is it just for punishment?
I'd rather leave it up to our professionals if they feel that option, or other harsh-type treatments, need to be considered.
If he's cooperating and his info is checking out, no need to take off the gloves. If we believe he doesn't have any other worthwhile info to give us, no need to take off the gloves. If he doesn't want to cooperate and we don't think he's not part of something massively bigger, no need to take off the gloves.
If we do however have a credible reason to think he's part of something bigger, and he's giving us BS that's not checking out, or just not cooperating at all, then the option of having a cut through the BS session is a nice thing to have on the table, from multiple angles.
Chuck
If he's cooperating and his info is checking out, no need to take off the gloves. If we believe he doesn't have any other worthwhile info to give us, no need to take off the gloves. If he doesn't want to cooperate and we don't think he's not part of something massively bigger, no need to take off the gloves.
If we do however have a credible reason to think he's part of something bigger, and he's giving us BS that's not checking out, or just not cooperating at all, then the option of having a cut through the BS session is a nice thing to have on the table, from multiple angles.
Chuck
If the Americans tortured and killed a Nazi Guard who oversaw the killing of thousands of jews you would use worse terms for the Americans than the Nazi? Interesting. I'd call them heros. What word would you use?
What would you call the Nazi Guard? Your idol?
The fact that you can't see the difference between these two actions doesn't surprise me. To quote a gone but not forgotten friend of mine, you sir, are a sub-human POS.
You telling someone that they are a POS is pure comedy, given your bloodthirsty nature and support of criminal activity.
What do you call a US prison guard that shanks a rapist in prison? A hero? No, he would be a murderer. Killing someone when they are in your care, and defenseless, is murder. Do you support vigilante justice for all crimes int he US as well?
I guess you are one of those kids that says "two wrongs make a right", based on what you are saying. "They torture us, so he have to torture them". That's brilliant 3rd grade logic you are using.
I seem to recall this thing called Nuremberg, where Nazi's were held accountable in a courtroom for their actions. Have you maybe heard of that? I guess you prefer the Stalin method of just declaring people guilty without trial and shipping them to the gulag for years (or forever) without trials orthis pesky thing called "evidence".
You know, before the neocons hijacked the Republican's, everyone understood the concept of laws, but somehow they have put out so much propaganda, and scared all the people like you, to make you think the law is optional. It isn't.
And read this quote, it pertains to you and others.
Read it and understand it. It has been done before, it is being done now, and it will be done again in the future. That is you to a "T". You are scared, so anyone that disagrees with you is a pacifist/coward/unpatriotic/un-American/traitorous.
AyashiKaibutsu
Diamond Member
- Jan 24, 2004
- 9,306
- 4
- 81
All info you get from someone tortured needs to be verified from an outside source... so you already need to know what they're going to say to believe them, and even then it might not be credible. Almost anyone who has to deal with interrogations agrees torture isn't a good source of information, and it comes with huge consequences besides that.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Oh really?
How about:
Who taught you to detonate a bomb?
Who taught you how to make the bomb?
Where did you procure chemicals?
Who sewed the underwear in which you concealed the components?
Who was with you in Yemen?
What are the names of those you trained with?
Who helped you get on that plane?
Who did you stay with on your visits to the U.S.?
Who gave you cash?
Who paid your bills?
Where is your computer?
U would fail as a cop. Perhaps Obama has a spot for you, U should check into homeland security positions, obvious managment material..
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Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Two wrongs don't make a right. But often one wrong is significantly worse than another. So much so as to make the other one almost insignificant. But it doesn't surprise me Garfield that you wouldn't understand that.
I don't think rape is worse than murder, so I reject your little example there. However, if a victim was able to somehow get into prison and murder the person who killed his family.. I would hold them to a different standard than the person who killed their family. Sure, both are wrong.. but killing the person who killed your family is LESS wrong and the punishment would be much less severe in my eyes.
Just as I wouldn't think very negatively of a halocaust survivor who killed a Nazi who was able to avoid prosecution at Nuremberg. Oh well. If there is a god, its between that person and god to sort out judgement. If there ISN'T a god, then who gives a shit? Not me.
Before you left wing pacifists took over the Democrat party - We used to defend ourselves from our enemies. Now the Democrats would prefer to see Americans die so we don't offend the Muslim terrorists. It also amazes me that a party that so mocks religion and those who stand on religious moral grounds want to use morals to show why we shouldn't torture or kill our enemies. God doesn't exist and the moral values of others shouldn't be forced upon me - according to YOUR party. So keep your morals out of determining if me and my family have a right to defend ourselves..
I don't think rape is worse than murder, so I reject your little example there. However, if a victim was able to somehow get into prison and murder the person who killed his family.. I would hold them to a different standard than the person who killed their family. Sure, both are wrong.. but killing the person who killed your family is LESS wrong and the punishment would be much less severe in my eyes.
Just as I wouldn't think very negatively of a halocaust survivor who killed a Nazi who was able to avoid prosecution at Nuremberg. Oh well. If there is a god, its between that person and god to sort out judgement. If there ISN'T a god, then who gives a shit? Not me.
Before you left wing pacifists took over the Democrat party - We used to defend ourselves from our enemies. Now the Democrats would prefer to see Americans die so we don't offend the Muslim terrorists. It also amazes me that a party that so mocks religion and those who stand on religious moral grounds want to use morals to show why we shouldn't torture or kill our enemies. God doesn't exist and the moral values of others shouldn't be forced upon me - according to YOUR party. So keep your morals out of determining if me and my family have a right to defend ourselves..
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YOU ANIMAL! What gives you the right to improse your will upon him like that? Do you want to offend all of Islam with you unreasonable questions? Why do you hate liberty, justice, and morality?
Clearly this guy DOES have information. We're just too weak as a nation to even ask it anymore. The passengers that stopped him from blowing up the plane should probably be brought up on charges by the ACLU for violating his right to blow up a plane.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
YOU ANIMAL! What gives you the right to improse your will upon him like that? Do you want to offend all of Islam with you unreasonable questions? Why do you hate liberty, justice, and morality?
Clearly this guy DOES have information. We're just too weak as a nation to even ask it anymore. The passengers that stopped him from blowing up the plane should probably be brought up on charges by the ACLU for violating his right to blow up a plane.
Really just basic questions to get to the next guy. Doesnt take a genius to climb hierarchy. The only reason Osama is not captured about 7 years ago is we refuse to extract. Don't you worry though realists like me and Churchill will be in charge again right after a nuke detonates and kills a couple mil.
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Exactly -- well said. It enrages me to no end how the leftists seem to go OVERBOARD in ensuring the comforts and rights of terrorists and scumbags, especially in the obvious cases where they are caught red handed like Mr Underwear here. Presumption of innocence is important in a functioning democracy, but overzealous presumption to the point of stupidity like what's happening with KSM in NYC just pisses the average joe off, especially when we imagine ourselves being on that plane with our families sitting next to the guy.
I can tell you I would have personally beaten him senseless while he was being subdued...and fvck his human rights after trying to take away mine.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Afraid and racist are two things these fools like to say ad naseum when they have no argument - just make them look stupid as fuck as far and I'm concerned and not worth addressing - they never want to see Americans afraid. With goodies we have now it make WW2 look like after school fight.
Torturing people at all is a violation of values, it's wrong. It's not 'justice'. And it's not about 'freedom', but the atmosphere that results when torture is permitted tends to reduce the freedoms allowed too.
'If we're over here torturing people for security, how can you raise these whiny little complaints your freedoms are being violated? You have to sacrifice too'.
Maybe you're right, maybe people give them too much credit as afraid. Maybe they are really just asses, monsters, who lack morality, and human decency, who dehumanize others and are too lazy to give as crap about what's done. You make a convicing case for that being the situation. You know, we get tired of robbers, burglars, rapers, people who commit fraud, murderers, and other criminals. Maybe we should not worry if they're tortured and put in disease-reiddent rat-infested cells and fed cockroaches. Who cares. Dehumanize the scumbag criminals. You are, assuming, nodding, 'hey Craig234 is making sense wow!'.
If you don't understand why we put those people in safer, cleaner prisons, feed them healthy but basic food, treat their illness, while punishing all of them with the loss of personal freedom, see above adjectives.
Really, these terrorists you and your not so wide gamut of fellow underdeveloped people are 'tired of' are in the same category as the criminals - just not citizens, further away, you relate to them less than citizens.
But the same principles are involved.
Next you minimize the issues.
We're not talking about adjusting the thermostat for comfort from 85 to 75. We're talking about significant use of temperature to coerce as part of a regime of torture.
Need I rebut all your misrepresentations this way, when I'm talking to a wall and you don't give a crap?
As in, there is some witness, so if the guy is being raped nightly, someone finds out. If pieces of his face are hanging by shreds of skin, someone knows. You don't care.
Remember Abu Ghraib, the abuses the Republican and Democratic leadership both said was immoral, wrong, a stain on our nation's honor, horrible, criminal?
That wasn't stopped by the military on its own. It wasn't exposed to the public by the military on its own. It was going along merrily with no end in sight, undiscovered, if not for the freak luck of one guy and photos.
But you don't care.
Exactly the attitude of the Nazi who supported the holocaust towards the Jew lovers. The attitude of the moral scumbag who lacks morality and dehumanized people. They're so ANNOYING whining 'torture'.
And the do gooder ACLU who stand up for the people to get in the way of the torture, how annoying. Don't they understand these are not human beings, stop pretending they are.
You are the moral equivalent of the rest of moral degenerates who dehumanize, even if you are not dong the same deeds, you are advocating the same lack of morality that allows it.
I haven't said you are lying or it's hearsay, I said I believe you and you are a moral scumbag.
And if you drive across any country - why not stick with Nazi Germany - you will find some people who support the evil you do. So what? It's evil. What's your argument, if someone support it it's ok?
You are not developed enogh to get the idea of things like humanity. You can cry all day, shed big tears for oh poor people on the plane *you can relate to*, people in yuour tribe - and you're right. They ARE people and it IS tragic for them to get killed. But you don't understnad 'humanity' and the same horor for others. The massive investment you make in not wanting that plane blown up, you don't care so much that a building is bombed overseas. That just hapopens, they're used to it, those are just cheap third world Muslims. So what. Oh well.
I've long said, evil doesn't really exist the way many think. There aren't people who are rubbing their hands cackling devising the next act of killing civilians.
What there are are underdeveloped people who say 'so what' about the torture of people they have not developed morality to care about. They are the amoral advocates of evil becase they don't get it.
They rationalize the evil to others they don't care about while not tolerating it for 'their side', they are the counterparts to their enemy, both sides convinced tey're rightly avenging wrongs with more violence.
I could go on but we both know I'm giving apoig singing lessons and it's a waste of time.
You don't seem to have a point there, you just liike the sound of the words.
The only misapplied words would be to say something like you are a good citizen. But when's the last time lecturing someone evil did much good?
Why don't you run along and post a response how not torturing people means causing the plane to blow up.
Right, there's no exaggerated fear of terrorism. There was no fear the government was able to use to get support for a waqr the country was otherwise strongly against. There was no fear the government was able to use to pass the Patriot Act with provisions it normally could not get passed - or to try to use to pass the 'Patriot Act II'. There's no fixation on terrorism, no excessive media coverage, no carte blanche of tenns of billions to 'fight it'.
No, the little packs of rag wearers in sand are kept in just the right persepctive as to the threat they pose to the safety of Americans, The one freak, unreproducible success of 3,000 people in America killed over 8 years ago - nearly 3,290 if the underwear bomber had exploded - isn't inflated, compared to the tens of thousands of Americans killed annually for lack of healthcare every other advanced nation has.
No excesses at all. Indeed, we should spend many more billions, we should not have any concerns about how we treat the Middle East, we should demand more of our rights be restricted for security in the Patriot Act III and the Patriot Act IV, and none of it is any overreaction. People are simply properly responding calmly to the danger you understand.
What's this about goodies? Talking about us using nukes or the terrorists?
I have a lot more sympathy with you doing that in the heat of the moment than in our system allowing for the cold blooded abuse and torture of anyone.
I think if you were a more thoguhtful person you would understand why not to actually do it, but it's a very understandable reaction, and I don't condemn it the same way at all.
I do notice you didn't 'man up' to the point you seemed to be trying to make and say you would have tortured him or executed him in cold blood as a captive on the plane. I wonder why.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
Liberals like Bush, Ashcroft, Tom Ridge, and everyone else who lauded the arrest and conviction of Richard Reid?
Your memory is pretty short.
Before you left wing pacifists took over the Democrat party - We used to defend ourselves from our enemies. Now the Democrats would prefer to see Americans die so we don't offend the Muslim terrorists. It also amazes me that a party that so mocks religion and those who stand on religious moral grounds want to use morals to show why we shouldn't torture or kill our enemies. God doesn't exist and the moral values of others shouldn't be forced upon me - according to YOUR party. So keep your morals out of determining if me and my family have a right to defend ourselves..
Read the quote I posted, you are getting played step by step. anyone who disagrees with you is a "left wing pacifist"....just goes to show propaganda works. They made you scared of the terrorist bogeyman, so you are will ing to follow anyone that tells you that you will be safe, if only you do what they want. And anyone that disagrees gets vilified. Good job FNE, you've been played just like a lot of Germans (obviously on a smaller scale). Well done learning from history.
How the hell did following US law, and NOT committing multiple criminal acts (such as torture) become "left wing pacifism"? What is a centrist in your eyes, Hitler? Stalin? What is right-wing? Nuke'em from orbit? Republicans, of which I am one, used to follow the law. I don't know what you neocons want, but it sure isn't following the law.
I see bombs and missles getting used still, so your "no longer defend ourself" is total bullshit. I see more troops heading to A-stan. I see attacks in Yemen and in Africa. What do you call all of that? Pacifism? Really?
If you read anything at all, you would see that Obama is, behind the scenes, doing about the same as Bush. He is just being more polite in public, and doing away with all the cowboy BS that pissed the world off.
And you are forcing your morals on me. I follow the law. You want to allow our leaders to break it. You want to allow our leaders to take our (mine and yours) freedoms away for *your* safety. So you are the ones that are the problem.
And try to read something other then Rush or Hannity, or Drudge. Read some real history books about terrorism, and learn how to minimize (can't ever eliminate it, ever, don't you know even that?) terrorism. Here is a hint: Killing 100 innocent people to kill one real terrorist doesn't help at all, since you created another 10 terrorists because of the innocent people you killed.
Of course, your ilk don't really care how many people die, as long as it isn't you, so you won't care, but there it is.
YOU ANIMAL! What gives you the right to improse your will upon him like that? Do you want to offend all of Islam with you unreasonable questions? Why do you hate liberty, justice, and morality?
Clearly this guy DOES have information. We're just too weak as a nation to even ask it anymore. The passengers that stopped him from blowing up the plane should probably be brought up on charges by the ACLU for violating his right to blow up a plane.
Now this is obvious trolling, or you both have serious mental illness. Or both.
So a good chunk of the US is full of barbaric shitheads, so what. I guess you can feel proud that you know a bunch of human garbage.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
I'd guess that the high costs is due to the extraordinary security NYC believes is required.
Fern
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Sounds reasonable. So, it's "you can't have a trial, because it's too expensive to pay for securit to keep our people from breaking the law and tryinjg to kill you at the trial."
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
If you're saying extra security to protect the accussed, I don't think it's that.
There's nothing really exceptional, nor terribly expensive about that. Madoff had extra security for fear someone would kill him. But basically that's just bullet proff jackets, him being surrounded by officers in buillet proof jacket when outdoors, a bit of care about transporting him jail to court, and his case they had SWAT stationed around to ensure there were no snipers.
I'm guessing the great expense is that for patrolling stations, subways, buses etc to ensure no bombs. Most likely extra patrols on streets too, terrorists hve been kown to put bombs in trash cans like in Paris in the erly 80's IIRC (imagine on Times Square). Then off course there's always car bombs. Maybe patrolling bridges. Probably the port and airports too. Universities and schools? Utilities?
NYC has a lot of potential targets.
Fern
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