Are you excited for Windows 8?

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Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Umm.. Linux Oses STILL have fragmentation issues, they are about on the same level as NTFS fragmentation issues (Much better than FAT32, granted).

The difference is that most linux filesystems don't support online fragmentation (not enough desire).

Because the affects of fragmentation are minimal except for some niche corner cases and extreme circumstances so it's not as easy to trick Linux users into paying for Snakeoil like Diskeeper. Diskeeper Corp knows their target audience.

Also, I don't count linux package management or driver support as its absolute strong point. Ever try to install a driver NOT supported by the distro? Nothing in windows driver installations compares to the difficultly of having to either recompile the kernel or compile a driver module for the kernel that you have.

The lack of real package management is a huge pain for Windows. I love getting an MSI package that tells me "You need to install X before this can be installed" with no pointer about where to get the dependency package or even attempting to get it for me. Including all of the dependencies is more common and better for the end user, but terrible for security and consistency.

And when was the last time you had to compile a kernel? Those times are extremely rare these days and things like dkms or module-assistant take care of building modules for you.

So again, the question is, What is windows missing that make it not "A modern OS".

Good logging and debugging is probably #1 on my list with package management being a close #2 and #3 being the fact that every part of the OS isn't covered by that package management and easily added and removed. The fact that I can't take a Windows Core installation and make it full without a reinstall is a huge fail.

The ability to easily replace in-use files without rebooting.
The ability to load and unload kernel modules.
The inability to setup NTFS mount points during installation is pretty retarded too.
The whole Windows print system just screams fail.

But all of that depends on your perspective and expectations. Most people have no idea what other OSes can do to make their use simpler compared to Windows so they won't have the same list that I do.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,286
147
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Because the affects of fragmentation are minimal except for some niche corner cases and extreme circumstances so it's not as easy to trick Linux users into paying for Snakeoil like Diskeeper. Diskeeper Corp knows their target audience.
:) I agree, which is why listing "defragging" as something windows does that makes it "non-modern" is sort of silly.

The lack of real package management is a huge pain for Windows. I love getting an MSI package that tells me "You need to install X before this can be installed" with no pointer about where to get the dependency package or even attempting to get it for me. Including all of the dependencies is more common and better for the end user, but terrible for security and consistency.
I've really only felt MSI pain when installing GPLed software on windows. Dll hell does suck, but it is doable.

And when was the last time you had to compile a kernel? Those times are extremely rare these days and things like dkms or module-assistant take care of building modules for you.
My most recent memory was installing the KWorld TV-Tuner. (I forget the exact model number). It is rare to have to compile kernel drivers, but arguably, especially with newer versions of windows, the times you have to go out and get a driver is about as frequent as you have to compile a kernel driver.

Good logging and debugging is probably #1 on my list with package management being a close #2 and #3 being the fact that every part of the OS isn't covered by that package management and easily added and removed. The fact that I can't take a Windows Core installation and make it full without a reinstall is a huge fail.
Meh, this comes from who windows is targeting vs linux. They try to make sure everyone has everything they might need in the future. Linux takes more the approach "My users know what the crap they are doing" and has the appropriate functionality.

The benefit of being able to strip linux down to the needs is, in someways, the drawback as well. Browsing through all the packages installed and trying to determine what is needed and what is optional takes a huge level of knowledge. It can be pretty easy to permanently screw up a linux system by removing a package that you really did want.

The ability to easily replace in-use files without rebooting.
Recent versions of windows can do this.

The ability to load and unload kernel modules.
Seriously, how often does the average computer user need to do this? Even the advanced one. Why would this make something a modern OS?

The inability to setup NTFS mount points during installation is pretty retarded too.
True, more advanced options all around would be nice.

The whole Windows print system just screams fail.
Eh? And the linux CUPs system is much better? Granted, current printer manufactures SUCK at writing drivers (100Mb for a printer driver is unacceptable). but that isn't really something that windows caused.

But all of that depends on your perspective and expectations. Most people have no idea what other OSes can do to make their use simpler compared to Windows so they won't have the same list that I do.
We are talking about what makes something a modern OS in general. I do agree, what someone needs out of their OS varies very wildly. But I don't see Windows as this big non-modern OS that it was accused of being. Windows really has become pretty slick.

Don't get me wrong, Linux is awesome when used correctly. I use it often myself, but I don't see it as having these great uber game changer features that make it a modern OS and everything else non-modern.

I guess what I'm saying as I see it, these features you've listed, while nice, aren't really things that make Linux a modern OS and windows a non-modern OS. Especially considering that really Linux is the only OS that supports them.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
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:) I agree, which is why listing "defragging" as something windows does that makes it "non-modern" is sort of silly.


I've really only felt MSI pain when installing GPLed software on windows. Dll hell does suck, but it is doable.

The "go find the dependency" message I quoted was from MS software, I think it was something from MSDN although I can't remember exactly what it was.

My most recent memory was installing the KWorld TV-Tuner. (I forget the exact model number). It is rare to have to compile kernel drivers, but arguably, especially with newer versions of windows, the times you have to go out and get a driver is about as frequent as you have to compile a kernel driver.

That's not true at all, even Win7 requires driver hunting with mainstream hardware already and as time goes on it'll only get worse while with Linux it'll get better.

Meh, this comes from who windows is targeting vs linux. They try to make sure everyone has everything they might need in the future. Linux takes more the approach "My users know what the crap they are doing" and has the appropriate functionality.

But I would consider being able to actually figure out what's wrong is something "they might need in the future" and Windows fails miserably in that regard.

The benefit of being able to strip linux down to the needs is, in someways, the drawback as well. Browsing through all the packages installed and trying to determine what is needed and what is optional takes a huge level of knowledge. It can be pretty easy to permanently screw up a linux system by removing a package that you really did want.

No more knowledge than required to go through the Windows features dialog. If you don't know what SNMP is you're not going to know on Windows or Linux.

Recent versions of windows can do this.

Then why does every installer still do the replace on reboot thing?

Seriously, how often does the average computer user need to do this? Even the advanced one. Why would this make something a modern OS?

The user wouldn't directly, but driver installers would benefit hugely from it. And being able to do it manually would be a nice debug tool for us that do understand it. And it makes it a more modern OS because it's more flexible and functional.

Eh? And the linux CUPs system is much better? Granted, current printer manufactures SUCK at writing drivers (100Mb for a printer driver is unacceptable). but that isn't really something that windows caused.

Yes, CUPS on Linux and OS X is much better. It's entirely in userland so there's no chance a print job will BSOD your machine and it seems to support things like IPP better than Windows.

We are talking about what makes something a modern OS in general. I do agree, what someone needs out of their OS varies very wildly. But I don't see Windows as this big non-modern OS that it was accused of being. Windows really has become pretty slick.

But you can't have that discussion without context and that context will vary from user to user. Someone who can get by with ChromeOS is going to have different usage patterns and requirements than someone developing .Net software.

I wouldn't call Win7 non-modern, but it still has a lot of ways to go before it catches up to Linux and even OS X in many areas.

Don't get me wrong, Linux is awesome when used correctly. I use it often myself, but I don't see it as having these great uber game changer features that make it a modern OS and everything else non-modern.

I guess what I'm saying as I see it, these features you've listed, while nice, aren't really things that make Linux a modern OS and windows a non-modern OS. Especially considering that really Linux is the only OS that supports them.

The big game changing feature is the license. Windows being closed limits the areas that it can be used while Linux can be used from everything from phones to supercomputing clusters all with zero licensing. Windows is grandfathered into a lot of areas right now, but eventually that will change.

And I think all of the features that I've mentioned apply to every free unix, not just Linux.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,286
147
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The "go find the dependency" message I quoted was from MS software, I think it was something from MSDN although I can't remember exactly what it was.
Interesting. I've not seen that. Usually microsoft is better at bundling everything together. The only exceptions I've seen to this are when it comes to the .Net framework (Which is just too big to bundle with every 1mb download).


That's not true at all, even Win7 requires driver hunting with mainstream hardware already and as time goes on it'll only get worse while with Linux it'll get better.
Not true. Windows 7 has MUCH better driver locating features than I've seen from previous versions. I was dreading changing out my mothers old XP laptop for a new Win7, I was surprised at just how many drivers it installed automatically (finding printer drivers especially impressed me). Yes, it doesn't grab everything, but it is tons better than it used to be.


But I would consider being able to actually figure out what's wrong is something "they might need in the future" and Windows fails miserably in that regard.
Linux isn't exactly a shining beacon here. Yes, it keeps better logs of whats happening, that doesn't always make things "easy" to fix or figure out what is going wrong.

No more knowledge than required to go through the Windows features dialog. If you don't know what SNMP is you're not going to know on Windows or Linux.
This is true, however, a user that THINKS they know what they are uninstalling/need can really screw things up. Even a user that just wants to trim things down is going to be lost in a sea of acronyms. Even though you can do it, the entrance level for being able to do it is pretty high. Just about as high as doing a nLite installation of windows.

Then why does every installer still do the replace on reboot thing?
That depends on what installers you are using. The guy that makes the installers is also the one that puts the "reboot the computer now" thing on everything. Some of that has to do with legacy, some of it has to do with lazy and "Just to be safe" logic.

Yes, CUPS on Linux and OS X is much better. It's entirely in userland so there's no chance a print job will BSOD your machine and it seems to support things like IPP better than Windows.
I've NEVER had vista or Win7 BSOD on my for printer problems. In fact, the only BSOD I've had have been heat related. Vista introduced the HAL which pretty much removed the ability for a printer to BSOD.

That being said, the last time I've dealt with cups was with an old crappy epson printer several years ago (07 I believe). It was a PITA to work with. The web brower configuration thing was just wonky. Even though my printer was supported, it would just sort of randomly stop working.

But you can't have that discussion without context and that context will vary from user to user. Someone who can get by with ChromeOS is going to have different usage patterns and requirements than someone developing .Net software.
That why we speak in averages. For example, for the average tablet user the iPad is the perfect solution. Pointing out fringe cases that most will never encounter (or want to encounter) and saying "See, windows can't do that, that makes it non-modern!" is almost like pointing at a random crappy OSS piece of software and saying "See, Linux will never be a modern OS".

I wouldn't call Win7 non-modern, but it still has a lot of ways to go before it catches up to Linux and even OS X in many areas.

The big game changing feature is the license. Windows being closed limits the areas that it can be used while Linux can be used from everything from phones to supercomputing clusters all with zero licensing. Windows is grandfathered into a lot of areas right now, but eventually that will change.

And I think all of the features that I've mentioned apply to every free unix, not just Linux.

Not all free *nix's have package managers, easy changeability, or any of the other stuff you mentioned. *nix is so varied that you can't really say that every *nix operating system supports or does everything that you've listed.

I don't really see closed source software as being a software killer. Being able to see the code for software is really something that most people don't care about (even programmers). Heck, even paying for a software licence isn't something that is going to kill it. Microsoft has a licence that is peanuts in the grad scheme of things while often offering deals and lower prices for businesses.

But I digress. I think we pretty much agree on my main disagreement with Lemon Law, and that is calling microsoft a non-modern OS.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Windows usually needs at least 2 whole versions to make any serious improvements.
2.0 to 3.0 to 3.1 to 3.11
95 to 98
98 to ME
NT 3.1 to 4
NT4 to 2000
2000 to XP (pretty much like 95 to 98)
XP -> Vista -> 7 (which isnt actually 7 but 6.1)

So I bet I wont be impressed until Windows 9.
FTFY :D.

You do not like the ribbon in Office? I love it and think if it was an apple idea the world would love it.
If it were an Apple idea, it would have been implemented differently and better, right from the start. I mean, with most displays being 16:10 and 16:9, what genius thought it would be a good idea to take programs in which vertical space is valuable, and use it up for a ton of icons that add minimal functionality, and which help obscure keyboard shortcuts? Just making it where it could be a sidebar, it could have been far superior. But, without that being the way it was done from the start, we'll be stuck with the ribbon as originally envisioned for way too long, as it catches on with Windows software makers.

Kind of like the new trend of removing the menu bar, because Chrome did it, yet then not actually offer a way to get to items that were in the menus, so you just have to add the menu bar back (Windows Explorer, Internet Explorer, and Firefox, off the top of my head).

Still Using Vista. I am rather unimpressed with offerings from Windows. Their stupid browser keeps trying to block everything when I watch Video online. If Vista was such a lousy OS they should have given you the next one for free.

Why should consumer's accept a sub-par product? What exactly did they improve? What big innovation are they delivering?
Many consumers didn't. XP downgrades, even if it came installed with XP from an OEM, counted as Vista sales, so it could appear that more people used Vista than actually did. Most users, though, either didn't know any better, or cared more about bling or price. Some cared about new games, and were thus kind of stuck.

I just stayed on with 2000, and eventually went only Linux on my desktop, until 7. Windows 7 is solid. It's good enough for me to not have a Linux as a primary OS, and to get back into Windows gaming. Nothing I've seen about Windows 8 looks interesting.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Interesting. I've not seen that. Usually microsoft is better at bundling everything together. The only exceptions I've seen to this are when it comes to the .Net framework (Which is just too big to bundle with every 1mb download).

Yea, I would've laughed out loud had it not actually been so sad and frustrating.

Not true. Windows 7 has MUCH better driver locating features than I've seen from previous versions. I was dreading changing out my mothers old XP laptop for a new Win7, I was surprised at just how many drivers it installed automatically (finding printer drivers especially impressed me). Yes, it doesn't grab everything, but it is tons better than it used to be.

Better than previous versions, sure but that still doesn't mean it'll contain every driver for hardware released after it. As soon as it doesn't support your NIC or wifi card you'll be back to Googleing for drivers on a secondary machine or your phone. Yes, it comes with more drivers out of the box but because the Win7 installer is essentially static, it'll always get back to being a huge PITA to install like XP is now unless you slipstream your drivers into yourself in the future.

Linux isn't exactly a shining beacon here. Yes, it keeps better logs of whats happening, that doesn't always make things "easy" to fix or figure out what is going wrong.

It's a lot better than Windows. I can use standard text tools to read the logs and the message are almost always relevant. I had an instance recently where a patch downloaded by WU wouldn't install and WU gave me some error code that wasn't even from WU so clicking the help links gave me absolutely no help at all, it turned out to to be the MSI return code and the problem was that MS removed a compiler in another, previous update and the patch I was trying to install needed files that were removed. But the bigger point is that these kind of broken error trails are common Windows and that isn't the case with Linux at all.

And AFAIK there's no way to tell the new event viewer to show me all but a certain type message without writing XPath queries, which of course is second nature to everyone...

This is true, however, a user that THINKS they know what they are uninstalling/need can really screw things up. Even a user that just wants to trim things down is going to be lost in a sea of acronyms. Even though you can do it, the entrance level for being able to do it is pretty high. Just about as high as doing a nLite installation of windows.

Those users shouldn't be forcing the package manager to remove stuff blindly just like they shouldn't be removing MSI packages by GUID either. The package managers in Linux do a good job at hiding the low level stuff and give you lots of warnings about what it's doing before you commit. Anyone who tries to remove something and gets their desktop taken with it should have known better because the package manager will have listed a hundred+ packages to be removed. If they're going to blindly click through that, there's nothing that can be done about that and they'll inevitably break their Windows machine just as bad, if not worse.

That depends on what installers you are using. The guy that makes the installers is also the one that puts the "reboot the computer now" thing on everything. Some of that has to do with legacy, some of it has to do with lazy and "Just to be safe" logic.

I understand that, but not even MS does it so that means that it either doesn't work well or at all.

I've NEVER had vista or Win7 BSOD on my for printer problems. In fact, the only BSOD I've had have been heat related. Vista introduced the HAL which pretty much removed the ability for a printer to BSOD.

That being said, the last time I've dealt with cups was with an old crappy epson printer several years ago (07 I believe). It was a PITA to work with. The web brower configuration thing was just wonky. Even though my printer was supported, it would just sort of randomly stop working.

NT has had a HAL since it's creation, that's nothing new. Vista and Win7 moved more more into userland like sound and parts of the video driver, but that's it. It even differentiates between kernel and userland print drivers so as long as your print driver is a kernel one, it has the ability to BSOD your system easily.

That why we speak in averages. For example, for the average tablet user the iPad is the perfect solution. Pointing out fringe cases that most will never encounter (or want to encounter) and saying "See, windows can't do that, that makes it non-modern!" is almost like pointing at a random crappy OSS piece of software and saying "See, Linux will never be a modern OS".

But being too vague misses the point. Windows has many technical limitations that can cause it to be considered non-modern but many of them only affect a specific are, lack of a checksummed filesystem like ZFS or BTRFS is probably a big concern for people right now.

Not all free *nix's have package managers, easy changeability, or any of the other stuff you mentioned. *nix is so varied that you can't really say that every *nix operating system supports or does everything that you've listed.

AFAIK ports works on all of them which despite being source based, counts to me. And they all most definitely support removing open files and setting up mount points during installation. The only one that might not apply to all of them is the ability to add/remove kernel modules at runtime.

I don't really see closed source software as being a software killer. Being able to see the code for software is really something that most people don't care about (even programmers). Heck, even paying for a software licence isn't something that is going to kill it. Microsoft has a licence that is peanuts in the grad scheme of things while often offering deals and lower prices for businesses.

So that's why Google and Apple built their software on free software instead of licensing something closed from a 3rd party? Of course Apple took something open and closed it, but that was their rights under the BSD license even though it's a douche move.

In the short term you're right, Windows is so entrenched in it's niches right now and most people don't even know there are alternatives out there. But a lot of the big stuff right now is open at some level. Google/Android/Chrome, Amazon, Facebook, virtualization from VMware and Citrix/Xen, iOS kinda, etc. To me it just doesn't make sense to reinvent or even pay for so many pieces of the puzzle that makes up a product when there's so much free software out there already.

Even from the end user standpoint, for example why should I use WinRAR or WinZIP when 7zip is out there, free and supports pretty much all archive formats already?
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,582
10,942
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Even from the end user standpoint, for example why should I use WinRAR or WinZIP when 7zip is out there, free and supports pretty much all archive formats already?

Additionally, you're allowed to change it. Granted, a dumb end user like me isn't gonna be changing much, but if something was important enough to me, I could learn it, or pay someone to change it for me. Unlikely for a single end user, sure, but that really adds value for a corporation. If they could pay $50,000 to have some software customized, and then have it used by 10,000 employees, that's pretty special. If they want it modified again, they're free to do so, or use someone else entirely. There's no proprietary lock in.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Additionally, you're allowed to change it. Granted, a dumb end user like me isn't gonna be changing much, but if something was important enough to me, I could learn it, or pay someone to change it for me. Unlikely for a single end user, sure, but that really adds value for a corporation. If they could pay $50,000 to have some software customized, and then have it used by 10,000 employees, that's pretty special. If they want it modified again, they're free to do so, or use someone else entirely. There's no proprietary lock in.
This is a good 90% of why Linux has been taking over mobile and embedded. Companies can have their control, and take advantage of the openness, provided they are careful about the licenses.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,838
39
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What anyone wants to consider "modern" or not is irrelevant. the fact that you can literally and very easily make any Linux distro or one you put together yourself, look and work exactly as you prefer it is the difference in how much one can really enjoy it.
If you need a small footprint install, more eyecandy or less...etc, there is no limit and most of your tools are free.
Linux is easy to modify once you break the Windows habit. you actually learn how to use a computer. its the habits themselves that die hard.

The only real negative is game developer support and some specific apps depending on if you prefer those particular apps.