are you a manual elitist?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: BlackTigers

Originally posted by: lurk3r
Absolutely, any real car needs a manual, if you feel the need to drive an automatic, stay the hell out of the left lane, buy a caddy or lincoln or some other slushed out pos and just get in line to die or something.

Oh and I mean offroading too, if you can't start on a hill you shouldn't be in the ditch.

I'm preeeettttyyy sure that at highway speeds the AT is going to be...just as fast at the MT...?

not necessarily true.
1. gearing
2. autos have higher drivetrain loss

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
My logic is that it's 2008...why the hell should I have to shift the car myself? I have automatic headlights, wipers, temperature control, everything...in many newer vehicles an auto gets better gas mileage and 0-60 times...why should I have to shift?

Because when you apex a corner and hit the gas, an automatic stumbles even today. Now, if they made an automatic that I could program both shift points and converter lockup pointsand have say, 5 or 6 separate programs that I could access from a pushbutton, then I might be inclined to agree, though even that isn't fully the amount of control I'd like.

ZV

Many new automatics have multiple driving profiles it switches between. It knows when you are in stop and go traffic, it knows when you punch it off the line and it knows when you are trying to rip it through the corners. You may not be able to manually pick between these profiles but the vehicle does have it. Plus I have tiptronic so I can get a little more control over it if I need to. Point being, automatics are "smarter" than they were 10 years ago. Again my point about it being 2008.

My car (E64) is rated for 18/27 MPG, the manual is 17/26 with the auto in 5.3 0-60 and 5.6 manual. The car is smarter than I am when it comes to shifting and I am comfortable with my decision to get an auto.

I've driven new automatics. They still stumble in spirited driving when there are corners involved. 0-60 is only one measure, and I've already pointed out that automatics are faster than manuals for drag racing.

Until they can read my mind, they aren't going to be preferred by me in a sportscar. The limitation is in the way an automatic "knows" your driving style. It's all based on what the car is currently doing, there is no knowing what you want it to be doing in the future. Floor the throttle, and the automatic will always downshift. There are times when I want it to hold the gear instead, and no automatic will do that without a manually-triggered "hold" button.

They're smarter, yes, but there are limitations to how smart they can get. Are they good enough? Absolutely. There's no reason aside from personal preference to choose one over the other. Both types have their place.

ZV

 

[SoulAssassin]

Fact is that it's a matter of personal preference and there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[BlackTigers]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: BlackTigers

Originally posted by: lurk3r
Absolutely, any real car needs a manual, if you feel the need to drive an automatic, stay the hell out of the left lane, buy a caddy or lincoln or some other slushed out pos and just get in line to die or something.

Oh and I mean offroading too, if you can't start on a hill you shouldn't be in the ditch.

I'm preeeettttyyy sure that at highway speeds the AT is going to be...just as fast at the MT...?

not necessarily true.
1. gearing
2. autos have higher drivetrain loss

At highway speeds. Both will be capable of anywhere between 65-90MPH, it's not like you automatically drive slow in the left lane because you don't have a stick.

 

[Pacfanweb]

For any daily driver, I'd rather take sandpaper to a tiger's ass than drive a manual.

For a toy, or hot car like a Vette, I'd prefer a stick.

 

[shabby]

Hi, my name is shabby... and im a manual elitist.
When one of my coworkers bought a new vette i couldnt help but laugh that he chose an automatic transmission.
There is no cure for my disease, i will continue laughing every time someone buys a sports car with an automatic transmission.

Thanks for listening

 

[zoiks]

I've also almost always owned cars that are manual. I however wouldn't mind an automatic that was extremely responsive when accelerating and between switching gears.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: shabby
Hi, my name is shabby... and im a manual elitist.
When one of my coworkers bought a new vette i couldnt help but laugh that he chose an automatic transmission.
There is no cure for my disease, i will continue laughing every time someone buys a sports car with an automatic transmission.

Thanks for listening

Bwahahahaha, two :thumbups;

I daily drive a stick and I'm fine with it. If you were in constant stop & go like LA or NY or something, yeah I wouldn't necessarily want a stick. But I hit traffic periodically and I daily drive everywhere and it's just fine for me.

 

[alkemyst]

While many amateurs think they are faster with a stick and can cite all sorts of race terminology the tale of the clock will show most much slower with the manual today.

Some PROS have stated with some of the autos today (which operate just like a manual with an electronic clutch) it makes no sense other than the enjoyment of rowing your own gears.

Most here will never get seat time in these higher echelon cars.

 

[Gibson486]

i bought a new 3 a year ago. I wish i got a manual...but oh well.

 

[MiataNC]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
While many amateurs think they are faster with a stick and can cite all sorts of race terminology the tale of the clock will show most much slower with the manual today.

Some PROS have stated with some of the autos today (which operate just like a manual with an electronic clutch) it makes no sense other than the enjoyment of rowing your own gears.

Most here will never get seat time in these higher echelon cars.

That is because the higher echelon cars are not really "automatics" as we know them.

Traditional Automatic transmission cars use hydraulic pressure and a torque converter to change and maintain gears. No matter how good these systems are designed, they still have internal losses and compromises that make them less efficient overall than a true manual car.

Higher echelon cars (DSG all the way up to the F1 cars mentioned earlier in this thread) have manual transmissions mated up to complex electronic clutches that eliminate the need for a 3rd pedal. These cars are arguably better as you state, because they have all of the benefits of a true manual with none of the drawbacks (human reaction times when working the pedal and shifter for example).

As to which (DSG, Auto, Manual) is faster on the track, it ultimately comes down to how easy it is to keep the car in the power band and in the correct gear. There are too many cars, tracks, and other variables to definitively say which is better overall, but I think you will find manual and DSG fair better in more situations.

 

[SoulAssassin]

oh yeah, one more thing...anyone that drives a manual and enjoys it is either masochistic or doesn't sit in rush hour traffic every day on the way home like I do. I can see wanting to have fun and rip through the gears through some backwoods hills with no one around but in stop and go traffic it's just murder.

 

[LS21]

not elitist as in (1) theres nothing brag-worthy about driving a manual and (2) i dont care what you do with your car and (3) i would not denigrate you for it

but personally i would not buy an automatic car - end story

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
oh yeah, one more thing...anyone that drives a manual and enjoys it is either masochistic or doesn't sit in rush hour traffic every day on the way home like I do. I can see wanting to have fun and rip through the gears through some backwoods hills with no one around but in stop and go traffic it's just murder.

I live around LA and while I don't drive in stop and go traffic every day, i do it at least 3 or 4x a week for at least an hour. Driving stick for so long, it doesn't really bother me that much. My clutch isn't heavy either so that helps a lot.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
While many amateurs think they are faster with a stick and can cite all sorts of race terminology the tale of the clock will show most much slower with the manual today.

Some PROS have stated with some of the autos today (which operate just like a manual with an electronic clutch) it makes no sense other than the enjoyment of rowing your own gears.

Most here will never get seat time in these higher echelon cars.

i never said i bought a manual because it was faster than an auto.
heck, i admit that i'm probably faster flooring the gas pedal of an auto, than shifting the gears in the same car.

to me, it's about being more connected to the car. i hate the disconnected feeling when driving an auto car.
the feeling of executing a perfectly rev matched or heel-toe downshift is pure bliss. that's something that even the best auto trans can NEVER reproduce. not even the floppy paddle F1 DSG type transmissions.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
oh yeah, one more thing...anyone that drives a manual and enjoys it is either masochistic or doesn't sit in rush hour traffic every day on the way home like I do. I can see wanting to have fun and rip through the gears through some backwoods hills with no one around but in stop and go traffic it's just murder.

nyc traffic, 5 days a week minimum. plus weekends if i'm driving.

 

[iversonyin]

Manual Elitist here. NYC traffic all day, and I don't give a damn!

 

[DivideBYZero]

I think there is more 'Elitism' in the US where a Manual is more rare and considered 'harder' to drive. In Europe it's the default transmission so trying to be smug about it is going to get you precisely nowhere apart from being laughed at.

Saying that, I cry a little inside when people buy tiptronic or other auto-equiped exotica. I openly laughed at my friend that bought an SMG equipped M3 cab, but he's a friend and I can do that.

 

[Samus]

I make exceptions for DSG gearboxes

Right. If a car is OFFERED with a manual transmission, that should be the transmission of choice. Always.

The only exception is when a manual isn't an option, such as an Audi RS6 or a DSG/Twin Clutch gearbox. These cars are designed with a lot of power in mind, and a manual trans with 500 HP would require a clutch that is simply impractical to use daily. It will either be uncomfortable or high maintenance, so twin disc is the way to go.

If you are comfy with a 200-400HP vehicle, which 95% of you should be, a manual trans with a nice, forgiving clutch is what you should get. Not because its fun (although it is) but because its more reliable and safer than an automatic. Clutches are cheap compared to any sort of auto trans work, and manual gearboxes are virtually maintenance free (maybe 30 bucks for an oil change in the sucker every 100-120k.)

The safety aspect of a manual speaks for itself. You have more control in all weather conditions, especially snow (antilock brakes wouldn't have even been invented if it weren't for the automatic!) because engine braking is far more effective than ABS/Traction Control.

Basic Pro's of a manual:

It is easier to get your car unstuck from snow.
It is easier/possible to regain control in a horizontal hydroplane in the rain.
You can pushstart any manual transmission vehicle relatively easily, even by yourself.
It saves vehicle weight.
If driven properly, it will definately save you maintenance costs.
It is safer, giving more control of the vehicle.
Wider selection of gear ratio's, increasing fuel economy (although this is changing)
No such thing as a 'fluid exchange' or 'trans flush' just a basic oil change every 100k or so
Keeps you awake.
Difficult to drive when under the influence/reminds you not to be driving
Friends can't drive (usually a good thing) and wont ask to borrow/drive your car.
Impress girls.
Impress guys.
Light excercise
Sometimes preferable in traffic since the rolling idle speed is lower (such as with trucks)
Engine braking reduces brake wear/moving foot from gas to brake constantly.
Lower initial cost of investment (automatics usually cost $1000+ more)
Better for the engine (redline is often higher with manual trans ECU's, allows better engine wear, high-rpm engine braking creates 'vacuum' to suck crap out, etc etc etc)
Often less likely to be stolen (theives, and even valet's, sometimes cant drive one!)

...I could go on forever.

Basic con's of a manual:

Not everyone can drive one.
Can be a bummer in traffic when tiresome shifting is called upon!
Sometimes lower resell value.
Easier to abuse.
Sometimes calls for one handed steering (while right hand shifts)

Yea...not a whole lot wrong with a manual lol!

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: Samus

I make exceptions for DSG gearboxes

Right. If a car is OFFERED with a manual transmission, that should be the transmission of choice. Always.

The only exception is when a manual isn't an option, such as an Audi RS6 or a DSG/Twin Clutch gearbox. These cars are designed with a lot of power in mind, and a manual trans with 500 HP would require a clutch that is simply impractical to use daily. It will either be uncomfortable or high maintenance, so twin disc is the way to go.

If you are comfy with a 200-400HP vehicle, which 95% of you should be, a manual trans with a nice, forgiving clutch is what you should get. Not because its fun (although it is) but because its more reliable and safer than an automatic. Clutches are cheap compared to any sort of auto trans work, and manual gearboxes are virtually maintenance free (maybe 30 bucks for an oil change in the sucker every 100-120k.)

The safety aspect of a manual speaks for itself. You have more control in all weather conditions, especially snow (antilock brakes wouldn't have even been invented if it weren't for the automatic!) because engine braking is far more effective than ABS/Traction Control.

Basic Pro's of a manual:

It is easier to get your car unstuck from snow.
It is easier/possible to regain control in a horizontal hydroplane in the rain.
You can pushstart any manual transmission vehicle relatively easily, even by yourself.
It saves vehicle weight.
If driven properly, it will definately save you maintenance costs.
It is safer, giving more control of the vehicle.
Wider selection of gear ratio's, increasing fuel economy (although this is changing)
No such thing as a 'fluid exchange' or 'trans flush' just a basic oil change every 100k or so
Keeps you awake.
Difficult to drive when under the influence/reminds you not to be driving
Friends can't drive (usually a good thing) and wont ask to borrow/drive your car.
Impress girls.
Impress guys.
Light excercise
Sometimes preferable in traffic since the rolling idle speed is lower (such as with trucks)
Engine braking reduces brake wear/moving foot from gas to brake constantly.
Lower initial cost of investment (automatics usually cost $1000+ more)
Better for the engine (redline is often higher with manual trans ECU's, allows better engine wear, high-rpm engine braking creates 'vacuum' to suck crap out, etc etc etc)
Often less likely to be stolen (theives, and even valet's, sometimes cant drive one!)

I agree with all your pros, but these three are huge. I'm currently driving a '98 Jetta with about 160,000 miles on it; and I've essentially stopped doing maintenance with the exception of oil changes. I don't think I could get away with that if I had an automatic.

I want a BMW 1 for my next car, (though it's far from certain). The fact that most of my friends won't be able to drive it is a big plus.

And I wouldn't have to worry about it getting stolen. I've never known someone who had a manual car stolen, they're just too rare in the U.S. for the car thieves to learn how to drive them.

 

[SSSnail]

You forgot the auto-stick option in your poll. It's kinda like a manual, kinda.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
You forgot the auto-stick option in your poll. It's kinda like a manual, kinda.

NO!

 

[GoatMonkey]

There's an awful lot of resistance to new technology here, especially with us being on a technology site. We could also use folding maps instead of GPS. Stop to use a land line instead of using a cell phone. Hand crank your car to start it instead of using a starter motor.

I'm sorry, but the clutch pedal will be mostly gone in the next 5 to 10 years. Cling to it all you want, but DSG type systems are going to take over. We may still continue to see a shift lever as an option, probably without a clutch pedal, but it doesn't make sense for manufacturers to make 2 types of transmissions when they could just change the lever that actuates it. It's simply the rules of mass production.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
There's an awful lot of resistance to new technology here, especially with us being on a technology site. We could also use folding maps instead of GPS. Stop to use a land line instead of using a cell phone. Hand crank your car to start it instead of using a starter motor.

I'm sorry, but the clutch pedal will be mostly gone in the next 5 to 10 years. Cling to it all you want, but DSG type systems are going to take over. We may still continue to see a shift lever as an option, probably without a clutch pedal, but it doesn't make sense for manufacturers to make 2 types of transmissions when they could just change the lever that actuates it. It's simply the rules of mass production.

That argument is null and void. Cars have been mass produced from the Model T days and we are still seeing many different types of transmission.

I for one hope to NEVER be forced into a car with only one transmission option. Choice wins.

 

[Kabob]

I think there's enough "sports car enthusiasts" around to keep the clutch pedal going for quite a while. True, it might dissappear from cars like my Civic but not from my WRX.