Are you a libertarian?

[BoberFett]

The glaring flaw of pure libertarianism is the insistence that society be structured on the assumption that entities will truly be "responsible" for the consequences of their actions, when it's absolutely clear that entities - driven by greed and/or ignorance - are capable of inflicting far more damage on others than the entity can possible correct.

Entities like the federal government? Look at the damage it inflicts constantly. The lie of big government is that fools like you think you can control it. The US federal government does more to damage the world than any private entity does.

 

[Steeplerot]

You people sound like you are defending a religion. And guess what, right-wing Libertarianism does not own individual freedom. Personal freedom and making corporations rich are not wholly owned by libertopians.

 

[Carmen813]

I consider myself a libertarian democrat. On things like Political compass I'm in the green quadrant.

 

[BoberFett]

Sorry Red, there is nobody more religious than nanny staters such as yourself. You can't think or act on your own, you need government to do it for you. You pray at the altar of government, begging for them to hand down their wisdom. Rather than provide for yourself, you pray for manna from Washington. When something goes well, you thank the kindly Democrat gods in Washington for making it happen, and when things go badly you blame the vengeful Republican gods.

 

[Carmen813]

/facepalm

Libertarians are all about hard decisions. Hard decisions made by individuals.

It's "liberals" who hate hard decisions, they want the nanny state to make all their decisions for them.

I hope you realize that by completely failing to understand the position of liberals, and in fact completely distorting it, you turn off everyone else to hearing your arguments.

Liberalism is, at it's roots, always been about freedom. The very root of the word, "liber" means "free."

The fact that the word liberal has been distorted from it's original and true meaning does not change the core philosophy. The exact same thing applies to the word "conservative." Both parties are on the authoritarian right. They both believe that government is the way to solve problems, and if you have any doubt of that, all you need to do is look at the policies each has implemented when in power. Both parties end up in the blue quadrant.

The libertarian right believes that it is ultimately the power of the individual that trumps all. The libertarian left takes a more collective approach, in that society is the ultimate power that determines an individuals fate. In truth, it's a little of both.

I'm with Hayabusa on the view of government. I believe it can do things well, but that it must be closely monitored. In an ideal system, it would be monitored by an active citizenry, which sadly we do not have.

 

[BoberFett]

Why do you think I put "liberals" in quotes?

 

[Carmen813]

Why do you think I put "liberals" in quotes?

My ability to read minds is limited, especially over the internet.

 

[soulcougher73]

A cell phone companies resources are not unlimited. If she's using her phone 24/7 to make calls and send text messages, her cell phone company has to dedicate a channel for her. If the cell company doesn't have towers where she is, the cell company has to "rent" that time from another provider.

Why is it bad for that cell company to recoup those costs by billing the customer that caused them?

This is not the cell company's fault, it's the customer's fault. The customer used the time and sent the text messages. "Not knowing" doesn't excuse that. You can't run a red light and then tell the officer that you "didn't know" that a red light meant stop. Doesn't fly.

Or the company could do the responsible thing and say there is no way in hell any person could afford for us to rent out these towers etc and just not allow her to do so? Could even be as so nice to call her and inform her what is going on. But why do the nice thing when you can bend someone over the coals?

 

[Carmen813]

Or the company could do the responsible thing and say there is no way in hell any person could afford for us to rent out these towers etc and just not allow her to do so? Could even be as so nice to call her and inform her what is going on. But why do the nice thing when you can bend someone over the coals?

You and Drebo are discussing the concept of social vs. personal responsibility. This is ultimately where many left and right libertarians disagree.

 

[jruchko]

Or the company could do the responsible thing and say there is no way in hell any person could afford for us to rent out these towers etc and just not allow her to do so? Could even be as so nice to call her and inform her what is going on. But why do the nice thing when you can bend someone over the coals?

It is not the companies responsibility to do so. They sell a service, and it is the responsibility of the consumer to find out the usage rates outside of the US. The commercials and plans all make it very clear that those rates only apply within the US.

What kind of twisted logic are people applying to somehow blame the company for the customer being stupid? It makes no sense.

 

[JoshGuru7]

The mere fact a cell phone company can charge someone $35,000 is proof enough that they have too much power.

Right now you could enter into a contract with me with where you could pay me $40,000 and I could provide you with some dryer lint in return. By your logic then I should be your top threat, not Verizon.

 

[soulcougher73]

It is not the companies responsibility to do so. They sell a service, and it is the responsibility of the consumer to find out the usage rates outside of the US. The commercials and plans all make it very clear that those rates only apply within the US.

What kind of twisted logic are people applying to somehow blame the company for the customer being stupid? It makes no sense.

Or maybe its the responsibilty of the company to inform this lady of her rates when they see an unsual usage pattern from out of country? Personal responsibilty works both ways. Any human that thinks charging anyone $35k for a phone bill is not human themsevles and would be better off not in the world.

 

[BoberFett]

My ability to read minds is limited, especially over the internet.

Language evolves. Meanings change. Liberal doesn't mean what it used to. Get over it.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Right now you could enter into a contract with me with where you could pay me $40,000 and I could provide you with some dryer lint in return. By your logic then I should be your top threat, not Verizon.

If you could draw up a contract that would actually pull that off on someone you would be, because it would most certainly obscure, hide, or flat out lie about the fact.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Language evolves. Meanings change. Liberal doesn't mean what it used to. Get over it.

In some nations, it still does.

 

[BoberFett]

In some nations, it still does.

Yes, most of the world still uses the term correctly from what I've gathered.

 

[jruchko]

Or maybe its the responsibilty of the company to inform this lady of her rates when they see an unsual usage pattern from out of country? Personal responsibilty works both ways. Any human that thinks charging anyone $35k for a phone bill is not human themsevles and would be better off not in the world.

They COULD do that, sure, but it is definitely not in any way, shape, or form, their responsibility. Like I said, they simply provide the service, she signed the contract.

It is 100% the fault of the customer.

 

[Craig234]

They COULD do that, sure, but it is definitely not in any way, shape, or form, their responsibility. Like I said, they simply provide the service, she signed the contract.

It is 100% the fault of the customer.

And whose fault is it if phone companies become powerful enough to that there is no phone service available for anything less than an outrageous price?

So that your only choice as a consumer is pay outrageous prices or have no phone?

Are you informed enough to understand that can happen without the government taking action to force competition in the marketplace?

The libertarians have no answer to the issue when the power is one-sided, do they.

Take any Latin American dictatorship in the past where a few owned everything and the rest had to hope for serving them for a bit of food - that's 'Libertarians' in action.

Their only answer: get born into one of the few families who own everything.

As the few families would sit there owning huge amounts of land unused, only preventing anyone else from growing on it - their 'ownership' being a permanent lock-in of poverty for the rest of the country. Such situations were filled with the forceful repression of dissent and changed only by force. Libertarianism offers nothing to fix it. It's not a problem.

 

[her209]

Do libertarians ever file for bankruptcy?

 

[bamacre]

And whose fault is it if phone companies become powerful enough to that there is no phone service available for anything less than an outrageous price?

So that your only choice as a consumer is pay outrageous prices or have no phone?

Are you informed enough to understand that can happen without the government taking action to force competition in the marketplace?

The libertarians have no answer to the issue when the power is one-sided, do they.

Take any Latin American dictatorship in the past where a few owned everything and the rest had to hope for serving them for a bit of food - that's 'Libertarians' in action.

Their only answer: get born into one of the few families who own everything.

As the few families would sit there owning huge amounts of land unused, only preventing anyone else from growing on it - their 'ownership' being a permanent lock-in of poverty for the rest of the country. Such situations were filled with the forceful repression of dissent and changed only by force. Libertarianism offers nothing to fix it. It's not a problem.

LOL, yeah, Latin America, a libertarian's utopia. LOL, Craig. Damn.

 

[hal2kilo]

No I feel I have a responsibility for people less fortunate than me. Also, government is the glue that makes us a civilized society.

 

[Elias824]

The glaring flaw of pure libertarianism is the insistence that society be structured on the assumption that entities will truly be "responsible" for the consequences of their actions, when it's absolutely clear that entities - driven by greed and/or ignorance - are capable of inflicting far more damage on others than the entity can possible correct.

BP?

 

[Steeplerot]

Yes, most of the world still uses the term correctly from what I've gathered.

Hardly, right-wing Libertarians are a US internet phenomenon. The rest of the world is fine with calling them what they actually are: immature US Republicans on a spoiled child-sociopathic trip.

 

[BoberFett]

LOL, yeah, Latin America, a libertarian's utopia. LOL, Craig. Damn.

He also believes monopolies happen due to libertarians. He's clearly delusional.

 

[MotF Bane]

LOL, yeah, Latin America, a libertarian's utopia. LOL, Craig. Damn.

And Somalia. Don't forget Somalia!