Are you a car snob?

[Zenmervolt]

There's where the problem comes from, refining is MORE than 100% efficient. It produces more energy than what comes out. I don't know the amount of energy required to refine a gallon of gasoline, but it is less than what the 1 gallon has in it.

So if you add the efficiency of the refining process, oil has a higher end to end efficiency than hydrogen (right now).

here's some unsubstantiated shit from a google search:
To extract one gallon of gasoline (or equivalent distillate): 9.66 kWh
To refine that gallon: 2.73 kWh additional energy.
Total: 12.39 kWh per gallon

One gallon of gasoline is 33kWh.

On the other hand, it takes 70kWh to create one liquid kg of hydrogen.
Assuming 40% conversion, that means each kg of hydrogen = 28kWh

One gallon of gas (33kWh) will get say 35mpg.
One kg of hydrogen gets 70mpg.

So two gallons of gas = 24.78kWh of energy spent getting 70 miles
1kg of hydrogen = 70kWh spent getting 70 miles

Nearly 3x as efficient to produce the gasoline.

Very interesting.

Basically, with hydrogen, we are effectively spending 70 kWh to get 28 in return, of which, roughly 16.8 are actually made use of at the wheels of a vehicle over 70 miles. This is an overall system efficiency of about 24%.

With gasoline we are effectively spending 24.78 kWh to get 66 in return, of which roughly 12.2 are made use of at the wheels of a vehicle over 70 miles. This is a total system efficiency of about 50%.

Something is a little off somewhere in the calculations since there shouldn't be that much of a difference in the net use, so either gasoline engines are a bit more efficient than my estimate or the Clarity is a bit less efficient than Honda's claims, but the basic idea you present seems right.

However, the salient point to remember here is that even though "refining" hydrogen requires more energy than the output, it is still price-comparable to refining gasoline. Also, because "refining" hydrogen means that the entire loop uses cleaner energy sources (nuclear, wind, hydroelectric, etc) the overall pollution may still be lower despite the energy deficit in refining. I firmly believe that the efficiency of hydrogen production, while it will never reach 100%, will eventually climb much higher than today.

ZV

 

[PricklyPete]

However, the salient point to remember here is that even though "refining" hydrogen requires more energy than the output, it is still price-comparable to refining gasoline. Also, because "refining" hydrogen means that the entire loop uses cleaner energy sources (nuclear, wind, hydroelectric, etc) the overall pollution may still be lower despite the energy deficit in refining. I firmly believe that the efficiency of hydrogen production, while it will never reach 100%, will eventually climb much higher than today.

ZV

CrazySOB...I completely agree with you that at this moment Hydrogen is not as efficient as gasoline for our cars. My point is that there is still plenty of opportunity for the refining process to be enhanced (as ZV says in the quote above). The other point that favors Hydrogen is that it is not reliant on a single resource (Oil) the way that gasoline is. There are gasoline alternatives that are not reliant on Oil (ethanol, bio-diesel) and these may end up being a better option than Hydrogen...although they don't seem to have the same "green" potential of Hydrogen.

 

[Koing]

That hits close to home.
I drive a Prius to work every day. On the weekends I'm out four wheeling in my lifted Jeep that gets about 12MPG. I'm also looking into getting a used Vette just for the fun of it. Owning a Jeep that gets wheeled has also forced me to become a gearhead.

By the way, all these people talking about how the Prius lists like a ship either only drive exotic sports cars, or they have been reading too many auto magazines. I take the Prius through curvy roads and it handles better than many other cars I've driven.

It's all relative mate.

I use to drive a crap car, drove a mates very modest Ford Fidesta 1.4 and it felt MILES BETTER in terms of gear change, handling, etc. Got my S2000 and his car feels rubbish now. The gear change feels like if it's a stick in a swamp and the steering feel not the same.

If I got in an Exige I'm sure the S2000 would not feel the same either!

Koing

 

[DivideBYZero]

It's all relative mate.

I use to drive a crap car, drove a mates very modest Ford Fidesta 1.4 and it felt MILES BETTER in terms of gear change, handling, etc. Got my S2000 and his car feels rubbish now. The gear change feels like if it's a stick in a swamp and the steering feel not the same.

If I got in an Exige I'm sure the S2000 would not feel the same either!

Koing

If you got an Exige you'd beg to get back into your S2000 within 15 minutes.

 

[PricklyPete]

If you got an Exige you'd beg to get back into your S2000 within 15 minutes.

Car Snob!!!!

 

[MJinZ]

Very interesting.

Basically, with hydrogen, we are effectively spending 70 kWh to get 28 in return, of which, roughly 16.8 are actually made use of at the wheels of a vehicle over 70 miles. This is an overall system efficiency of about 24%.

With gasoline we are effectively spending 24.78 kWh to get 66 in return, of which roughly 12.2 are made use of at the wheels of a vehicle over 70 miles. This is a total system efficiency of about 50%.

Something is a little off somewhere in the calculations since there shouldn't be that much of a difference in the net use, so either gasoline engines are a bit more efficient than my estimate or the Clarity is a bit less efficient than Honda's claims, but the basic idea you present seems right.

However, the salient point to remember here is that even though "refining" hydrogen requires more energy than the output, it is still price-comparable to refining gasoline. Also, because "refining" hydrogen means that the entire loop uses cleaner energy sources (nuclear, wind, hydroelectric, etc) the overall pollution may still be lower despite the energy deficit in refining. I firmly believe that the efficiency of hydrogen production, while it will never reach 100%, will eventually climb much higher than today.

ZV

Lots of that energy is potentially limitless - not so with fossil fuels.

 

[EightySix Four]

Lots of that energy is potentially limitless - not so with fossil fuels.

Limitless energy sources don't matter, our ability to collect the energy is what matterS.

 

[530Mathilda]

The Prius is just an econo box. Like you said, if it is not a hybrid, no one will care. Just all this techy stuff. But it does get great mileage. I just recorded my first 60 mpg tank.

 

[EightySix Four]

That hits close to home.
I drive a Prius to work every day. On the weekends I'm out four wheeling in my lifted Jeep that gets about 12MPG. I'm also looking into getting a used Vette just for the fun of it. Owning a Jeep that gets wheeled has also forced me to become a gearhead.

By the way, all these people talking about how the Prius lists like a ship either only drive exotic sports cars, or they have been reading too many auto magazines. I take the Prius through curvy roads and it handles better than many other cars I've driven.

Go buy the vette and come back here and tell me the prius has even reasonable handling.

 

[Possessed Freak]

I drive a POS 1994 saturn that is full of dings, dents, and has no headliner... what do you think?

The thing gets me from A to B and back again for very little maintenance and little fuel.

 

[Perknose]

Go buy the vette and come back here and tell me the prius has even reasonable handling.

Go buy the Starship Enterprise and come back here and tell me the 'vette has even reasonable acceleration.

 

[zCypher]

I used to be carsnobbish, but I think I'm much less so today. I eventually realized how much it was costing me. I drive a pretty cheap car and it still costs quite a bit of money when payments, insurance, gas, tires and all maintenance etc is all factored into the equation.

I found that many people tend to only consider the actual value of the car, as if cars don't cost anything else. Stupid really...

Once I realized how large a portion of net income the car was gobbling up, I quickly started to care less and less about modifying the car or procuring a "better" one.

It comes down to this. A car is an expensive tool that is a necessity for some and a luxury for others. Ever since moving within walking distance of everything I really need, I don't think about my car the same way... a year or two of car expense = a down payment for a house or condo.

When it comes down to how many HP you have, what super duper suspension, diff or engine mod you have, etc... at that point, I think of it as a TOY... and when I add up what the real world cost would be to have that "toy" car of choice, I realize I just can't afford that... at least, not just yet

I do so love cars though. Maybe I don't qualify as a "car guy" compared to some gearheads, though.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Car Snob!!!!

:awe:

 

[EightySix Four]

Go buy the Starship Enterprise and come back here and tell me the 'vette has even reasonable acceleration.

I'm talking about reasonably obtainable vehicles. C5 corvette's can be had in the mid teens, and he stated he was interested in purchasing one.

(all 2k9 models)

Prius:
1/4 mile: 17.5 @ 79.6mph
0-60: 10.3 seconds
60-0: 131ft
Slalom: 62.2mph
Skid pad: .72g

Honda Civic Si:
1/4 mile: 15.3 @ 93
0-60: 7.0
60-0: 123
Slalom: 68.8mph
Skid pad: .87g

Toyota Corolla:
1/4 mile: 16.9 @ 83.1
0-60: 9.1
60-0: 125
Slalom: 63.3
Skid pad: .83g


It is out classed in every single measurable performance measure against the most average of vehicles. It is an appliance. That's fine, get from point a to point b with great gas mileage, but don't try and sell me on the idea that it is fun or could be called a driver's car by anyone but someone who has not experienced a real vehicle.

Something is a little off somewhere in the calculations since there shouldn't be that much of a difference in the net use, so either gasoline engines are a bit more efficient than my estimate or the Clarity is a bit less efficient than Honda's claims, but the basic idea you present seems right.
ZV

I've thought about it and one possible explanation is the energy extraction capabilities of the fuel cell in the FCX Clarity is that efficient, but the electric motors and rest of the drive train are not. So it can take 90% of the energy in the hydrogen and convert it to electricity, but the motor can not use 100% of the electricity, if that makes sense.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I've thought about it and one possible explanation is the energy extraction capabilities of the fuel cell in the FCX Clarity is that efficient, but the electric motors and rest of the drive train are not. So it can take 90% of the energy in the hydrogen and convert it to electricity, but the motor can not use 100% of the electricity, if that makes sense.

Honda's official statements on the Clarity say 60% efficient "from tank to wheels", which suggests that it includes any losses from wiring/motor/ancillary devices, but it's quite possible that they're measuring in ideal conditions which aren't usually seen in the real world.

ZV

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

I drive an 06 Lincoln LS and a 98 Cavalier, so no, I'm not a car snob

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Sure, if by 'fun' you mean 'better than walking.
If you take a new driver and give them any car that drives, I'm sure they'd tell you it was fun too. That doesn't mean it's going to be fun for those of us who have real cars..

Trying to evade jlee in a Prius IS exciting :biggrin:

 

[JeepinEd]

Go buy the vette and come back here and tell me the prius has even reasonable handling.

Are you seriously asking me to compare a Vette against a Prius?
I have driven a Corvette, and a few exotics as well. Their handling is far superior to that of a Prius so what's your point?

I'm talking about normal four door sedans in a comparable price range.

Geez, you are a car snob...

 

[EightySix Four]

Are you seriously asking me to compare a Vette against a Prius?
I have driven a Corvette, and a few exotics as well. Their handling is far superior to that of a Prius so what's your point?

I'm talking about normal four door sedans in a comparable price range.

Geez, you are a car snob...

No, I'm asking you to realize this:

By the way, all these people talking about how the Prius lists like a ship either only drive exotic sports cars, or they have been reading too many auto magazines. I take the Prius through curvy roads and it handles better than many other cars I've driven.

simply is not true. Cars in similar years, price, and utility handle far superior to the prius. So unless the "many other vehicles you've driven" are all 15+ years old, then you are arguing for the car based on a bias, not factual evidence.

I told you guys I don't have a problem with the prius, I have a problem with anyone saying it is a drivers car for any reason other than gas mileage.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I don't think I'm a car snob, but, I think people should question their purchases more when they think about buying a Prius

Same as I question people who drool over the Ipad when the competition generally has better products at the same price point, or equal products at a lower price point...

 

[Zenmervolt]

By the way, all these people talking about how the Prius lists like a ship either only drive exotic sports cars, or they have been reading too many auto magazines. I take the Prius through curvy roads and it handles better than many other cars I've driven.

Sorry, but nope. My '98 Volvo handles better than the Prius. So does the current-generation Camry. And the current-generation Civic LX. And the current-generation Mercury Grand Marquis. And the current-generation Chevy Impala. And the current-generation Chevy Malibu. And so on and so forth. I'm not comparing the Prius to my 951, I'm comparing it to very mundane "grocery-getter" cars.

Now, the Prius can be hustled along if one wants to, but I'd pick any of the cars listed above before the Prius if I wanted a car that felt good while doing so.

ZV