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Are we there yet? Anybody still in doubt that a Trump Presidency is a national disaster?

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,200
8,044
136
I was convinced that a Trump presidency would be a national disaster before the election and I posted my ideas concerning that. Since the election, I haven't given as much time to the national political situation. I have a lot of other concerns, I can't and won't bother keeping up with everything. For one thing, Trump disgusts me and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay attention to him if I don't have to. People are fascinated by odd and wrenching spectacles. I think I should spare myself when appropriate.
If you ignored trump you wouldn't be any worse off than if you paid attention to him.

What you should be paying attention to is all the people behind the scenes and the people he is appointing to his administration.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,502
3,260
126
werepossum: Claiming that you have "all the range of moral values of a conservative in pure form and none of the moral blindness and hypocrisy" IS calling yourself G-d, dude.

M: Hehe, no more than who you would have to be that sure of it.

w: I agree with what you are saying, but your deciding that one group (the left) is morally correct on every issue nullifies your premise. And I've seen you exercise zero "kindness, respect and tolerance" for anyone who disagree with you. Hint: EVERYONE respects and tolerates those who think exactly the same. Even people in cults. Even people in secular cults.

M: Even God threw Satin into hell didn't He? I mean, come on, it's not easy being green and having your creations fuck up your garden gift.

But, in fact, one apparent to me anyway, is that you misstate my case. All I did was affirm what peer reviewed studies of liberal and conservative differences are and combine that with what I have observed about human psychology, that conservatives more than liberals are engaged in the game of reality denial, and to an extent that they threaten human survival. It is that real and actual fear that conservatives today present that is the cause of much madness in liberals. The presence of terror among liberals turns them conservative in mentality, but with you now as the enemy. It is the conservative brain defect that started everything and now the disease is spreading.


w: <sigh> You guys on the far left really need to apply for government assistance to hire people to read things for you, understand them, and explain them to you in ways that you can understand. I ascribed all the benefits of Western civilization to LIBERALS. NOT TO CONSERVATIVES. TO LIBERALS.

M: Where do I sign up. I am convinced I don't see words. I once got a ticket for casting off a peer behind a sign with six foot letters that said, No Casting Off the Peer. It was just paint on a wall for me. I am aware, however, that you are similarly freaky. You occasionally even make sense.

w: Conservatives are good for maintaining good, not necessarily so good in developing new good. We tend to want to conserve the status quo because there is invariably good in any successful system. That can be good if the proposed change is toward less freedom, less individual liberty, less economic opportunity. It can also be bad if the proposed change is toward more freedom, more individual liberty, more economic opportunity. Change is not inherently good or bad, it's just different. Conservatism is neither inherently good nor evil. Neither is progressivism either inherently good or evil. The most we can do is point out how often progressives are opposed not just to conservative principles, but also to liberal principles. Even that is not totally diagnostic - what may be most desirable in an agrarian nation of 100 million may not be most desirable (or even tolerable) in a large urban nation of 330 million, so yesterday's Western liberalism ideals may be less than practical. But it certainly is striking to see how often the left today is running 180 degrees from Western liberalism's core principles.

The great liberal insight in my opinion is that all men are created equal, that for reasons that can be debated, we posses certain inalienable rights like the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that the capacity to have any real sense of what promotes or retards those inalienable features of human existence is dependent on educated and trained minds devoted to objective reason. Nobody can conserve or effectively change anything without the presence of that capacity. The requirements are a mind free of programming.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Just wanted to point out that the correct solution to the Prisoner's Dilemma is to cooperate. That is the rational solution. The whole thing was designed as a thought experiment to show how people make bad decisions that lead to the worst possible solution.
No, the point of the exercise and its novel math in general is to show that the "obvious" solution is provably incorrect. From a third party perspective, cooperation from both parties is obviously optimal, but not so much from that of each self-interested party involved.

Game theory is basically what's often call "wisdom" quantified.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I think that agent's point is that conservatives don't act rationally against rational players and thereby obtain a game advantage and his idea is that you have to punish the irrational for making irrational choices in order to cause them to abandon that destructive strategy.
Neither party to the game is necessarily making an irrational choice, just the most self-interested one.

The punishment is a separate solution to take advantage of and illustrate the asymmetric nature of this particular relationship. In the same way that a parent can punish a child to teach a lesson but not vice versa.

Punishments are most effective when they're direct and transparent, which is why it's beneficial to speak of it openly if it's to be done. Ie. this is what happens when you acted selfishly.

Furthermore, I would say to him, based on his instance that what we see in nature is a successful evolutionary strategy and that there are in human culture particularly, but in the animal world, examples of where altruism is the winning strategy. Bacteria will clump in the presence of poison leading to the survival of some, bats will share blood, and monkeys will shout warnings even though doing so exposes them to danger more that the quiet ones because a temporary risk is offset over a lifetime amongst other screamers.

But there are huge swathes of human activities that ameliorate against the normal dangers that most animals face. We cook food, wear clothes and make tools, etc. We use reason to improve our chances at survival.

So the simple answer to the dilemma we face regarding altruism is to reward it when it takes place and to punish it when it does not. This relates to what I call creating what you fear. If you fear losing and are full of mistrust you will create opponents who will seek to destroy you. agent enters our picture here. This is what would happen in nature. The reward for selfishness is enmity and the reward for altruism, or as I like to call them, progressive values, is friendship and greater success.

So among humans the job should be to create a society that moves away from punishment to enforce altruism by working toward an enlightened citizenship that understands its benefits and chooses it consciously.

How can that be done?

It seems to me that the wellspring upon which human cooperation is built is genetically ingrained empathy. It is what we were born to be, our true nature if you will, the product of a social evolution that allows us to feel what others feel, and in part a mammalian desire tto protect our offspring vastly extended. So the job we have, in my opinion, is to understand what the forces are that replace that empathy with selfishness, suspicion, and fear of losing.
You're correct in that there's some more global evolutionary advantage to altruism (vs. survival of individuals or smaller groups), but how much is for the ecosystem to determine. For example, if liberals keeps getting screwed into extinction through a strategy of appeasement, it's questionable whether what remains is any better, as least given a perspective where altruism is a virtue.

Thus it stands to reason there's some middle-ground line to trust, or even better intelligently moving that line depending on the parties we deal with. Given the circumstances, it's pretty obvious where the more carrots strategy is going if you've ever seen spoiled brats and their likeness to beneficiaries of white welfare.

In general the carrot/stick strategic mix exists because they push from opposing sides in a balancing act.

And the answer to that, I believe, is that we learned to use language that has the power to transmit imaginary ideas painfully, putting our children down for behaviors we think are worthless without carefully delineating that it's the behavior that's unacceptable not the person. The result of this, of course, is that we have come to hate ourselves and are thus full of imaginary and selfish needs.

Put simply, what we are in need of as liberals, in my opinion, is a message that has moral and emotional appeal to the part of ourselves that is real, that every person is of value and the greatest sense of purpose and value a person can have is his innate love of others. The love of others goes hand in hand with real self respect and nobody who respects himself will allow others free reign to walk over him.
Language is just a communication tool to be used as fit, and it persists because entities carrying the ability out-survive those who don't, so ostensibly it has some value beyond berating children. Or maybe that behavior isn't as detriment as you propose.

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Btw, in the future if you care to format multi-part replies correctly, copy/paste the following where you wish to speak and type between the two tags:

Code:
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
eg:

Code:
...
they're rapists, and murders, 
[/QUOTE]
You're a rapist.
[QUOTE]
and some I assume are good people
...
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Trumpian level bullshit. You toss about terms so vague as to be pure gibberish.
lol Even for a bit of code, you are not very sophisticated at parsing thoughts beyond "conservatives bad, proggies good".
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136
lol Even for a bit of code, you are not very sophisticated at parsing thoughts beyond "conservatives bad, proggies good".
I do enjoy it when you're reduced to that. You're so cute when full of empty petulance.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
I do enjoy it when you're reduced to that. You're so cute when full of empty petulance.
Petulance? lol Amusement. It's actually fortunate for you though that you enjoy it when I'm "reduced to that", since you are extraordinarily gifted at convincing me that you cannot possibly be a thinking, rational human being. Or even a non-thinking, irrational human being.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,502
3,260
126
Anybody there yet who wasn't from day one? Somebody thought they saw a crack in Romney. Have the Republicans chained themself to a sinking ship? Do they see yet that everything Trump touches dies? Will an impeachment investigation begin today years late and if so where will it go?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,502
3,260
126
A Trump impeachment investigation has been ongoing since he entered the White House.
I don't think so at all but regardless, when I say 'are we there yet' I mean voting to impeach. In my opinion, perhaps today started the clock. But we will see. I will assume that your suspicion it started the day he took over is because down deep you know it should have.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,547
1,759
126
I don't think so at all but regardless, when I say 'are we there yet' I mean voting to impeach. In my opinion, perhaps today started the clock. But we will see. I will assume that your suspicion it started the day he took over is because down deep you know it should have.

Yeah, That's the reason...
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,936
9,718
146
A Trump impeachment investigation has been ongoing since he entered the White House.
Yea, the GOP controlled house and Senate got right to it. It's seems republicans are so unaware of reality that their short term memory loss allows pretty much anything in right wing echo Chambers to fill in the blanks for them.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,502
3,260
126
Yet so far away.
Perhaps then some sense of persecution? Living in America today and only just within the last few years, it is easy, I think, to imagine that Trump is worthwhile leader. He is a pied piper who has established a cult following of millions of disillusioned people. One needs only leave the borders of any country in the world, not experiencing paroxysms of immigrant fear or any liberal dominated local within the states to discover that he is seen with utter contempt. He is an avatar of a particular kind of bigotry and localized mass psychosis. And no matter how deeply one buys into the religion he sells, one can never transmit that disease to those who do not suffer from the required underlying mental illness and conditioning. These aberrant mental cult prisons have swept through societies in history by the millions, each the one and only true religion, each with its day in the sun and then swept away, deeply mourned and then forgotten in the sands of time. Trump is your Ozymandias.
 
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Meghan54

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2009
9,484
2,293
136
Just curious.....what's Trump's foreign policy? Seems to me it's suck up to dictators and trash our long standing allies.

What's his economic policy? Trade war with China that he blusters about more and more tariffs, only to step back from most of them, or give exceptions out the ass to those who cry the loudest. OH, and cry about socialism while giving billions in handouts to farmers....which is socialism, btw.

Environmental policies? He has none except to see some clean water and air and say....we don't need pollution controls because we already have clean water and air. (How the hell does he think we got to this point in having somewhat clean air and water? Luck? It was regulation of industry that, left to their own "oversight", would pollute until a river catches fire or an entire Great Lake gets essentially sterilized of all aquatic life, like Lake Erie had been.)

Frankly, it seems the only agendas Trump wants to fulfill is 1) obliterating everything the darkie put in place, 2) line his pockets with more money.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
136
Just curious.....what's Trump's foreign policy? Seems to me it's suck up to dictators and trash our long standing allies.

What's his economic policy? Trade war with China that he blusters about more and more tariffs, only to step back from most of them, or give exceptions out the ass to those who cry the loudest. OH, and cry about socialism while giving billions in handouts to farmers....which is socialism, btw.

Environmental policies? He has none except to see some clean water and air and say....we don't need pollution controls because we already have clean water and air. (How the hell does he think we got to this point in having somewhat clean air and water? Luck? It was regulation of industry that, left to their own "oversight", would pollute until a river catches fire or an entire Great Lake gets essentially sterilized of all aquatic life, like Lake Erie had been.)

Frankly, it seems the only agendas Trump wants to fulfill is 1) obliterating everything the darkie put in place, 2) line his pockets with more money.
All this has been apparent to anyone that doesn't have a deep psychological need to believe Democrats are worse than Republicans no matter what Republicans get caught doing thousands of times.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
5,619
593
126
Just curious.....what's Trump's foreign policy? Seems to me it's suck up to dictators and trash our long standing allies.

What's his economic policy? Trade war with China that he blusters about more and more tariffs, only to step back from most of them, or give exceptions out the ass to those who cry the loudest. OH, and cry about socialism while giving billions in handouts to farmers....which is socialism, btw.

Environmental policies? He has none except to see some clean water and air and say....we don't need pollution controls because we already have clean water and air. (How the hell does he think we got to this point in having somewhat clean air and water? Luck? It was regulation of industry that, left to their own "oversight", would pollute until a river catches fire or an entire Great Lake gets essentially sterilized of all aquatic life, like Lake Erie had been.)

Frankly, it seems the only agendas Trump wants to fulfill is 1) obliterating everything the darkie put in place, 2) line his pockets with more money.
What's the Democrat's strategy? So far it has been promising impeachment and calling people racists. The only thing they have accomplished is looking foolish.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,502
3,260
126
What's the Democrat's strategy? So far it has been promising impeachment and calling people racists. The only thing they have accomplished is looking foolish.
Tackling corruption: This is HR 1, the first bill House Democrats will take up in early January — a broad anti-corruption and pro-democracy reform bill. It does three main things: institute campaign finance reform, institute new anti-lobbying rules, and expand voting rights in the country, including things like automatic voter registration.
It has little chance of passing the Senate or being signed by Trump, but Democrats are trying to make a statement: They are serious about getting money out of politics and Republicans aren’t (assuming they don’t cooperate on the bill).
Protecting voting rights: The Voting Rights Advancement Act would restore key provisions of the landmark 1965 Voting Rights Act that were invalidated by the US Supreme Court’s 2013 Shelby County v. Holder decision. Essentially, the bill would give the federal government the ability to really scrutinize states with a history of voter discrimination, assigning election observers to states or municipalities with repeated problems.
It was initially part of HR 1, but Democrats recently took it out because they anticipate a long and drawn-out legal battle for the bill on the unlikely chance it passes Congress and Trump signs it.
Infrastructure and jobs: Democrats want to work with Trump on one of the few areas where the two parties agree: the need for better infrastructure in the US. Democrats want to fix ailing roads and bridges and put in rural broadband, something that would likely be paid for with an increase in the gas tax. Democrats also want to expand access to education and skills training and spur entrepreneurship as part of a larger effort to create jobs.
Trump has frequently put infrastructure as one of his top priorities, but Republicans couldn’t even agree with his administration’s proposal when it came out in February 2018. Action on this issue depends on whether the White House feels like negotiating with Democrats.
Lowering prescription drug prices: This is another area where Trump and Democrats have said they agree: lowering skyrocketing drug prices. It’s a very politically popular thing to do, and could come in the form of changes to Medicare or certain drug rebate laws. But the Pharma lobby is powerful, and it has so far convinced Trump to take a softer approach.
But with Democrats controlling the House, a new opportunity could arise. It’s perhaps the most doable thing for Trump and Democrats to compromise on in 2019, but so far, Democrats are waiting for concrete signals the White House is ready to take action.
Stabilizing the Affordable Care Act: The ACA is under assault from the Trump administration and conservative states, who have filed a lawsuit asking the law to be declared unconstitutional. Democrats are looking at passing a bill to stabilize the law, and fight back against the lawsuit. Remember, the ACA was Nancy Pelosi’s signature piece of legislation passed in 2010, so keeping the health care law alive is very important to her.
Also, expect Trump to fight her very hard on this front — he has shown very little interest in the details of health care.
Other priorities
Common-sense gun reform: Reflecting on the six-year anniversary of the Newtown shooting at a recent press conference, Pelosi committed to bringing gun legislation to the floor, including a universal background check bill. She’s also working with members of a Democratic task force on gun violence that will introduce even more bills in the coming year.
They plan to have the universal background check bill be bipartisan, but again, it has a tough path to even make it to the Senate floor.
Action on climate change: One of the burgeoning fights within the Democratic Party during the start of the new session is how far the party should go to address climate change. Progressive star Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is lobbying hard for a plan called the “Green New Deal,” and the establishment of a select committee to push climate change legislation. Much of that could be wrapped up into an infrastructure bill, putting Americans to work building renewable energy sources.
But also expect Democrats on the House Energy and Commerce Committee to conduct oversight into the Trump administration’s rollback of environmental regulations.
Immigration reform: After a drawn-out and bitter fight over immigration in 2018, House Democrats eagerly want to fix the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program and give young, undocumented immigrants a pathway to citizenship. But this is running up against Trump’s desire for $5 billion for a border wall, something Democrats say they won’t entertain.
There could be a bipartisan bill that contains a DACA fix and increased border security out later in the session, but many immigration advocates say they want a clean DREAM Act for a pathway to citizenship.
Appropriations and spending bills: Trump’s border wall has been at the root of the January government shutdown, and that was even at a time when Trump’s party controlled all three branches of government. Trump is again fighting with Democrats and Republicans alike over how much money should be put aside for his border wall, and more grandstanding over this is sure to come.
Foreign policy:
There are two big areas Democrats plan to focus on when it comes to foreign policy; passing a resolution to end US involvement in Yemen, and slapping tougher sanctions on Russia.
This is the rare place where they will be in agreement with Senate Republicans. The Senate already passed a resolution to end US involvement in Yemen’s ongoing civil war, and Senate Republicans have been eager to put sanctions on Russia after its meddling in the 2016 election. Trump isn’t so happy about either of these, but Congress is a powerful player in matters of starting or ending conflict.
House Democrats’ investigations
The area where Democrats may have the most power in the next Congress is investigations. With Republicans in the Senate and White House, Democrats ultimately don’t have a lot of power to pass policy — but they do have the power to subpoena the president.
With the never-ending parade of scandals and departures in the Trump administration, Democrats are also going to use their power to conduct extensive oversight into the executive branch: everything from Trump firing FBI Director James Comey, to the administration’s family separation policy, to the president’s ties to foreign countries.
Democrats have been cautious when it comes to the subject of impeachment, being clear they won’t rush to conclusions before special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation is complete. But with Republicans doing little to no oversight on Trump over the past two years, there is a ton for them to investigate.
Here are some of the most important things Democrats will look at:
  • Jared Kushner’s security clearances and business ties to foreign governments.
  • Members of the Trump campaign’s contacts with Russians during the 2016 election.
  • Members of the Trump administration’s use of private email for government-related business.
  • The Trump administration’s response to Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico.
  • More detail into the administration’s past family separation policy and its impacts. House Democrats will ask for details about the separated children and where they are living.
  • The Trump administration’s attempt to undermine the Affordable Care Act.
These are just a small number of the subpoenas Democrats plan to send, and the list is likely to grow even longer as they take control in 2019.





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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,531
18,091
136
What's the Democrat's strategy? So far it has been promising impeachment and calling people racists. The only thing they have accomplished is looking foolish.
your mind must be one curious journey into some undefined ether.
 

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