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Are we so desperate to hold elections in Iraq

Grunt03

Diamond Member
Iraqi PM Extends Emergency Laws for 30 Days

I wonder do our leaders even know how desperate they are looking? Like the elections will end all the fighting and become the cure for the country.

Iraqi interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, made this move which is going to do nonething but increase the death rate in Iraq. He's going to let the dogs loose to do what they want when they want to who ever they want. Good or Bad...........
 
So what benefit do you see in postponing them? I can see only two, either so you can say "Aha! Told you that the situation in Iraq is worse than Bush is admitting" or because it fits neatly with your worldview of thinking "those brown people over there" are somehow morally or intellectually incapable of democracy and exercising free will in an acceptable fashion (or in a way that's not how YOU think they should exercise it anyway), sorta like how the left views the red states as "Dumbfuckistan" because they voted Republican rather than Democrat.

BTW, here's a good article which explains why we're going through with the elections as scheduled:


link

The Country We've Got
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Each day we get closer to the Iraqi elections, more voices are suggesting that they be postponed. This is a tough call, but I hope the elections go ahead as scheduled on Jan. 30. We have to have a proper election in Iraq so we can have a proper civil war there.

Let me explain: None of these Arab countries - Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia - are based on voluntary social contracts between the citizens inside their borders. They are all what others have called "tribes with flags" - not real countries in the Western sense. They are all civil wars either waiting to happen or being restrained from happening by the iron fist of one tribe over the others or, in the case of Syria in Lebanon, by one country over another.

What the Bush team has done in Iraq, by ousting Saddam, was not to "liberate" the country - an image and language imported from the West and inappropriate for Iraq - but rather to unleash the latent civil war in that country. Think of shaking a bottle of Champagne and then uncorking it.

This is not to say that the "liberation" of Iraq's people is impossible. But unlike in Eastern Europe - where a democratic majority was already present and crying to get out, and all we needed to do was remove the wall - in Iraq we first need to create that democratic majority.

That is what these elections are about and why they are so crucial. We don't want the kind of civil war that we have in Iraq now. That is a war of Sunni and Islamist militants against the U.S. and its Iraqi allies, many of whom do not seem comfortable fighting with, and seemingly for, the U.S. America cannot win that war. That is a civil war in which the murderous insurgents appear to be on the side of ending the U.S. "occupation of Iraq" and the U.S. and its allies appear to be about sustaining that occupation.

The civil war we want is a democratically elected Iraqi government against the Baathist and Islamist militants. It needs to be clear that these so-called insurgents are not fighting to liberate Iraq from America, but rather to reassert the tyranny of a Sunni-Baathist minority over the majority there. The insurgents are clearly desperate that they not be cast as fighting a democratically elected Iraqi government - which is why they are desperately trying to scuttle the elections. After all, if all they wanted was their fair share of the pie, and nothing more, they would be taking part in the elections.

We cannot liberate Iraq, and never could. Only Iraqis can liberate themselves, by first forging a social contract for sharing power and then having the will to go out and defend that compact against the minorities who will try to resist it. Elections are necessary for that process to unfold, but not sufficient. There has to be the will - among Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds - to forge that equitable social contract and then fight for it.

In short, we need these elections in Iraq to see if there really is a self-governing community there ready, and willing, to liberate itself - both from Iraq's old regime and from us. The answer to this question is not self-evident. This was always a shot in the dark - but one that I would argue was morally and strategically worth trying.

Because if it is impossible for the peoples of even one Arab state to voluntarily organize themselves around a social contract for democratic life, then we are looking at dictators and kings ruling this region as far as the eye can see. And that will guarantee that this region will be a cauldron of oil-financed pathologies and terrorism for the rest of our lives.

What is inexcusable is thinking that such an experiment would be easy, that it could be done on the cheap, that it could be done with any old army and any old coalition and any old fiscal policy and any old energy policy. That is the foolishness of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. My foolishness was thinking they could never be so foolish.

Still, the game is not over. We know that the Iraqi people do not want to be ruled by us. But what we don't know is how they want to rule themselves. What kind of majority are the Iraqi Shiites ready to be - a tolerant and inclusive one, or an intolerant and exclusive one? What kind of minority do the Iraqi Sunnis intend to be - rebellious and separatist, or loyal and sharing?

Elections are the only way to find out. Or, as Rumsfeld might say: You go to elections with the country you've got, not the one you wish you had - because that is the only way to find out whether the one you wish for is ever possible.

 
If we can stage a democratic election, it will lend credence to the fiction that we were there to liberate and democratize Iraq.
 
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!
 
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
 
We are having elections for the sake of having elections.
I say we get the hell out the next day. I know some rightwing nutcases are gonna say, oh noes, we can't get out now all hell will break loose. And maybe it will. But guess what, if we stay 5 more years, in 5 years that will not change. So the only thing staying longer will accomplish is kill more GI's and waste more money.
 
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.
 
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.

Ever stop to think not eveyrone in the world is as bitter and pessimistic as you seem to be?
 
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.

And playing right into Bin Laden's announced plan to bankrupt the US.
 
I dunno. I guess i'm just an idiot for caring for others' lives.

We made the mistake of going in there (yes I think it was a mistake) now we owe it to them to make sure they have some semblance of a stable government.

People are people to me....if I see someone in need, I feel we should help them.

 
Originally posted by: Centinel
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.

Ever stop to think not eveyrone in the world is as bitter and pessimistic as you seem to be?

Ever stop to think not everyone in the world is as clueless as you seem to be?
 
I do not agree with

Iguess we do not remember how everything started in Somalia? We tried to do the same thing there, only difference there were two war loards controlling the country. Over time we saw our military forces being deployed to control and rebuild the country. The army had there hands full and handed things off to the Marines, we then handed it back to the Army and the UN. Months later the situation started getting worse and the Marines were back there withdrawing all forces. We did not establish a new government, the two war loards are still present and running the country down.
Then like now we are trying to do to much ourselves, without the UN support and pressure from other world leaders, this will fail also........
 
Originally posted by: daveshel
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.

And playing right into Bin Laden's announced plan to bankrupt the US.

Doesn't even have to lift a finger to stage any terrorist attacks here to accomplish it either...his buddy Bush is doing the job himself!
 
Yes i'm clueless catnap.

Please explain it all to my confused little mind.

Now, how bout you get your arrogant head out of your ass and try being civil, and i'll do the same.
 
Originally posted by: Centinel
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.

Ever stop to think not eveyrone in the world is as bitter and pessimistic as you seem to be?

Well, cynical would be the more appropriate term 🙂

so you do believe that we're just trying to help Iraqis out of the goodness of our hearts?

well then, you're lying on one extreme and I'm on the other in regards to this subject then, and I don't think any amount of discussion on it will budge either of us from our positions.
 
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Centinel
What i'm trying to figure out is why Bush has allowed those 200 different parties representing 7200 candidates and nasty things such as islam and communism to be on the list.

He's doing a crappy job at installing a puppet government lemme tell ya!

Yeah and we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars, taking huge political gambles and sacrificing American lives to stage these democratic elections to 'free the people of Iraq' just out of the goodness of our hearts.

Ever stop to think not eveyrone in the world is as bitter and pessimistic as you seem to be?

Well, cynical would be the more appropriate term 🙂

so you do believe that we're just trying to help Iraqis out of the goodness of our hearts?

well then, you're lying on one extreme and I'm on the other in regards to this subject then, and I don't think any amount of discussion on it will budge either of us from our positions.

Hell no I dont think the only reason we're doing it is out of the goodness of our hearts. Then again I also dont think we're only doing it for our, or Bush's, self interests either.

Nothing is ever black and white in this world, ESPECIALLY when it comes to international politics......hell even politics in general.

 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
As ridiculous as this whole war has been and the farce the new government has become, I do have the utmost in respect for any Iraqi willing to take office or join the Iraqi National Guard. They know they are targets 24/7 yet they continue to fill those positions. Those are the true patriots. Not the fair-weather chickenhawks.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
As ridiculous as this whole war has been and the farce the new government has become, I do have the utmost in respect for any Iraqi willing to take office or join the Iraqi National Guard. They know they are targets 24/7 yet they continue to fill those positions. Those are the true patriots. Not the fair-weather chickenhawks.
You are correct. They are the true patriots, not the handwrigning, gutless, chickendoves for whom the Iraqis are little more than a rhetorical device to attack the US admin.

 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
As ridiculous as this whole war has been and the farce the new government has become, I do have the utmost in respect for any Iraqi willing to take office or join the Iraqi National Guard. They know they are targets 24/7 yet they continue to fill those positions. Those are the true patriots. Not the fair-weather chickenhawks.
You are correct. They are the true patriots, not the handwrigning, gutless, chickendoves for whom the Iraqis are little more than a rhetorical device to attack the US admin.

I think that's what it comes down to Tasteslikechicken......many in support of the current operation see the Iraqis as a people worthy of our help and worthy of being able to determine their own fate, regardless of why we went in the first place.

Whereas others only see the Iraqis as tools to attack Bush......just as they see the tsunami relief effort as a tool to attack bush instead of a representation of the generosity of Americans.

 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
As ridiculous as this whole war has been and the farce the new government has become, I do have the utmost in respect for any Iraqi willing to take office or join the Iraqi National Guard. They know they are targets 24/7 yet they continue to fill those positions. Those are the true patriots. Not the fair-weather chickenhawks.
You are correct. They are the true patriots, not the handwrigning, gutless, chickendoves for whom the Iraqis are little more than a rhetorical device to attack the US admin.
Speaking of rhetoric....
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
As ridiculous as this whole war has been and the farce the new government has become, I do have the utmost in respect for any Iraqi willing to take office or join the Iraqi National Guard. They know they are targets 24/7 yet they continue to fill those positions. Those are the true patriots. Not the fair-weather chickenhawks.
You are correct. They are the true patriots, not the handwrigning, gutless, chickendoves for whom the Iraqis are little more than a rhetorical device to attack the US admin.
Speaking of rhetoric....

Once again...

Pot, Kettle.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Gee...a new troll amongst us.


<sigh>


Who were you before the ban?

You dont like it when people directly confront you do you?

You seem to get rather defensive.

And if posting my opinions on politics in a political forum makes me a troll, well then a troll I am.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Getting elected anything on Jan. 30th is signing your own death certificate.
As ridiculous as this whole war has been and the farce the new government has become, I do have the utmost in respect for any Iraqi willing to take office or join the Iraqi National Guard. They know they are targets 24/7 yet they continue to fill those positions. Those are the true patriots. Not the fair-weather chickenhawks.
You are correct. They are the true patriots, not the handwrigning, gutless, chickendoves for whom the Iraqis are little more than a rhetorical device to attack the US admin.
Speaking of rhetoric....
Wazzamatter? Left shoe on the right foot feel uncomfortable?

 
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