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Are we ever gonna get another space sim?

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shortylickens said:
Actually Freelancer and DarkStar one play just fine with a mouse, so I doubt its essential.
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lol, I was just going to suggest you try out DarkStar one, but looks like you already have. I played it for the first time last night and while it controls fine with a mouse for flight and fight, there are way too many keyboard commands to remember for everything else. Seems like a good premise ruined by micromanagment of mundane tasks.
 
CPA said:
lol, I was just going to suggest you try out DarkStar one, but looks like you already have. I played it for the first time last night and while it controls fine with a mouse for flight and fight, there are way too many keyboard commands to remember for everything else. Seems like a good premise ruined by micromanagment of mundane tasks.
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Yeah but Freelancer wasnt a whole lot better.
You need special buttons for warping, picking shit up, dropping it off, managing weapons and shields.

For that kind of hassle I want some real action, a la TIE Fighter.
 
Damnit, these threads make me pine for TIE Fighter. I am seriously considering re-playing that over the summer. That game is the best PC game ever, in my book. Love it.
 
Cerb said:
If you build, you could still get one. You'll need 3rd-party drivers for Windows 7, though. You'll need extra drivers for a USB MIDI/gameport adapter, as well. And you know, I still can't bring myself to sell, give away, or throw away, my doorstop of a Sidewinder 3D Pro 🙂.

I was speaking, of course, of console controllers that can be used with PCs (for that matter, a modern console would not be a bad target, as modding would be the only major downside). While it took a lot of fiddling (Xpadder and AutoHotKey), I found I could play FS2 better on my gamepad than w/ a mouse (I can aim better w/ the mouse, but ease of maneuverability w/ the pad more than makes up for it). Still used the keyboard for all the but the basic targeting functions, of course.
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I actually bought an adapter for my PS2 controller to play FS2. I found I couldn't play it properly with just a mouse and keyboard. Still, the analog stick on the controller is nowhere near the control I get from a full size Joystick. Although the plethora of buttons make it easy to implement all the major functions on the gamepad versus having to hit keys on the keyboard all the time.

I may someday buy a new joystick, and try the game again. I am finding that X3 is difficult to play without a joystick as well. I just need to look up prices. The joysticks I have seen seem to be up around $100 which seems a lot to play only two games that cost me a total of maybe $20 combined. If space fighter games were more common, I think I would go out and get one no problem. As it is, I am not so sure. I loved Wing Commander and X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, but X3 doesn't seem as good and Freespace 2 is a little too dated to really get back into right now.
 
Cerb said:
Last I checked, most people had two per player. It doesn't take too much work for old games (Freespace 2) to be playable w/ a console controller, and in a new game, menu systems could easily replace having more functions than keys. IMO, as long as the management would be willing to give "casual gamers" the finger, it could work great.
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Sure, I've got a bunch of console controllers, but none of them are usuable on my PC without some adapter I don't have. Most people don't have anything other than a keyboard and mouse connected to their PCs.
 
Why would you play a space sim with anything other than a joystick? Its not like a semi decent stick is expensive.
 
Ross Ridge said:
Sure, I've got a bunch of console controllers, but none of them are usuable on my PC without some adapter I don't have. Most people don't have anything other than a keyboard and mouse connected to their PCs.
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The PC would be a secondary market for such a game, IMO, so despite the forum this is in, it would probably be a non-issue.

Martimus said:
I actually bought an adapter for my PS2 controller to play FS2. I found I couldn't play it properly with just a mouse and keyboard. Still, the analog stick on the controller is nowhere near the control I get from a full size Joystick.
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It's not quite as good, that's for sure. The secret to making it usable, though, is to get below 1:1 axes input, at least for the first 1/2-2/3 of the stick's range. Otherwise, there is just too much angular movement in game. Getting this right with a brand new game would be duck soup, compared to trying to make it work for an old game, which expects real sticks.
 
Cerb said:
The PC would be a secondary market for such a game, IMO, so despite the forum this is in, it would probably be a non-issue.
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Yah, that isn't going to happen either. There have been plenty "space-sims" on the consoles, but they've all been very arcadey and never really sold all that well.
 
Ross Ridge said:
Yah, that isn't going to happen either. There have been plenty "space-sims" on the consoles, but they've all been very arcadey and never really sold all that well.
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I agree with Cerb though that in order for the space fighter genre to come back, it would have to start in consoles due to the inherent advantage of analog thumbsticks to a keyboard and mouse.

The fact that nearly all space fighter sims have been arcadey, and not serious on the console likely has a root in the lack of a complex input device like the keyboard that would allow for more controls to be used. However I could see a simplified control scheme do well, since the PS2 controller had 14 buttons I could map when I set it up for Free Space 2, which is enough to work a relatively complex control system for a game.

I think the biggest reason the complex space fighter hasn't made its way to the console is based on early consoles using dpads (which are worse than a mouse for this type of thing) and very simple input devices (the NES has a total of 4 buttons). Newer consoles would be able to handle it better, but developers would need to overcome the stigma that it won't work well from previous tries years ago.
 
Ross Ridge said:
Yah, that isn't going to happen either. There have been plenty "space-sims" on the consoles, but they've all been very arcadey and never really sold all that well.
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Of course they wouldn't sell well. One of the things that makes some of the older ones so great, like the older Mechwarrior games, is the depth to the gameplay, while still being 100% fantastical. Now, how do you market that, today? That I can't answer, except to say that there are way too many people who still love and play these old games for it to be an impossible task.
 
Star Control II isn't a space sim. Neither is Sins of a Solar Empire, any of the X games, or any MMO.

Freespace, Descent, X-Wing, TIE Fighter, and Wing Commander are examples of space sims. Like flight sims, but in space.

There was a free one I tried a while back called Babylon 5: I've Found Her. It was pretty hardcore, attempting to recreate accurate physics as portrayed in B5. When you're flying a Starfury, you have full control of ALL 16 engines, and turning or changing direction uses fuel like it would in real life. Pretty difficult to get into and would probably work better with a high-end flight setup with pedals and stuff, but neat nonetheless.

Freespace 2 was fine though. I felt like allowing you to maneuver as though you're in atmosphere, even when you're in space, is an acceptable departure from reality in the interest of maintaining the fun of the game.
 
I wish a developer would buy out the Homeworld franchise and create an off-shoot much like the original. I never really could get into HW2.
 
Cerb said:
Of course they wouldn't sell well.
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Then no console developer, no console publisher, is going to waste thier time and money making a "hardcore" console space-sim that would sell even less well.

The only hope for a new dogfighting space-sim is on the PC. This the platform where the "people who still love and play these old games", still play these old games. This is where the market still barely exists, in the form of the X series, jewelbox copies of Freelancer, and Freespace downloads at GOG.com. It's not the console forums where you see all threads asking for a new space-sim game. It's not console gamers that would actually buy such a game.
 
Ross Ridge said:
Then no console developer, no console publisher, is going to waste thier time and money making a "hardcore" console space-sim that would sell even less well.

The only hope for a new dogfighting space-sim is on the PC. This the platform where the "people who still love and play these old games", still play these old games. This is where the market still barely exists, in the form of the X series, jewelbox copies of Freelancer, and Freespace downloads at GOG.com. It's not the console forums where you see all threads asking for a new space-sim game. It's not console gamers that would actually buy such a game.
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Then there is no hope, is there? However, why would a decent game not sell well? It's an argument like, "Amercians don't like diesel cars," an argument with no concept of what actually is going on. An arcade style game of the genre of Freespace will become boring too quickly, no matter the rest of its qualities. That the tactical elements, and resource management, generally leave one overwhelmed, at any point in time, is part of what makes such a game addictive.

I don't think it is fair to count a good game out, just because dumb ones for dumb people got made and suck. Well, of course they did. Catering to "casual gamers" categorically makes games worse, if the game is not a conceptual fit to begin with ("casual gamer" tends to be euphemism for people with too much money to burn, and short attention spans, when applied to games that try to have any depth to them).

Also, games of other genres, which very much cater to gamers willing to put in many hours learning, are successful, even on consoles. Bethesda and Obsidian games alone are proof that casual gamers can be pretty much ignored, with success.
 
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Cerb said:
Then there is no hope, is there? However, why would a decent game not sell well? It's an argument like, "Amercians don't like diesel cars," an argument with no concept of what actually is going on.
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The problem here is that you've got no concept of what's going on. It's not enough that the game be "decent", it's also got to be something people want to buy. You can sell a diesel car because people want to buy cars, but a horse and buggy isn't going to sell no matter how well its desgined and built.

Take Freespace 2 for example. It's what you would consider a decent game, right? It got amazing reviews, and everyone that bought the game loved it. That is, the few people that did buy it. It was a great game, but it sold poorly, and that was back when PC gamers actually did have joysticks. The market for space-sim games, no matter how good, just wasn't there.

There's is however still small, but proven market on the PC. Egosoft is obviously making money selling their games, or they wouldn't be releasing their fourth game in the X series. It may not be quite the space-sim you're looking for, but it's a series of space games that PC gamers have proven their interest in by actually spending money on.

There is hope that someone someday might make a commericial straight-up dogfighting space-sim game, but it's far far more likely on the PC than it is on the consoles. In addition to the fact that's where the potentional market is, the barriers to entry are much lower on the PC, as evidenced by the open source games like Vega Strike. Anyone making such a game will probably end up losing money, but they'll lose less money on the PC than they will on the console.
 
I miss this genre so much. I dumped so many happy hours in X-Wing, TIE Fighter, Wing Commander III and Colony Wars.

The "Long Night of Solace" level in Halo: Reach gives me hope that maybe the genre isn't dead, because with modern engines, they could do some EPIC stuff.
 
Galaxy on Fire for iOS is one of the most recent ones I can think of. Another I can thin of is Orbiter, which is a full sim. No combat, just realistic flight. Think MSFS in space.

Where has Lawrence Holland been hiding anyway? LA really needs to revive the X-Wing series, as long as it's not Clone Wars.
 
My apologies if it has been mentioned already.. . Someone recently recommended "Black Prophecy" when I was searching for a newer space sim like Freespace..

Its in the same genre of EVE (as what I've read), then again, others say its different... It's MMO as well.

I've only tried it twice so far, and its far from being a Freespace2, but it's closer than any other game I've tried.
 
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