Are We at War -- or Not?

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CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
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Yeah, I remember when the North Vietnamese attacked the United States in, um . . . How is this analogous again? In one situation we were fighting to preserve a partition of a country's freedom; in the other we are fighting people who directly attacked us and killed 3,000 Americans. The analogy seems a bit - nonexistent.
Your analogies hold some validity concerning Afghanistan, where the Taliban government did support alQaeda, but it fails on Iraq. Invading Iraq in response to an attack on American soil by Afghanistan-trained Saudis would be like Franklin Roosevelt responding to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor by declaring war on Siam.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
First, those arrested in this country go through the U.S. justice system. Those detained in the course of overseas operations, military and covert, are subject to different rules. You can't see the distinction?
Those accused of criminal acts in the United States, such as homicide in New York, Pennsylvania and the District of Columbia, receive criminal trials in those jurisdictions; those accused of martial acts against the United States military and its installations get military tribunals. Why is this principle so difficult for you to accept?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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Those accused of criminal acts in the United States, such as homicide in New York, Pennsylvania and the District of Columbia, receive criminal trials in those jurisdictions; those accused of martial acts against the United States military and its installations get military tribunals. Why is this principle so difficult for you to accept?

What is the point you are trying to make again?
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
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It does not matter whether we say that our nation is at war or not. The only thing which is certain and sure is that Al Qaida (along with their supporters) understand and know for sure that they themselves are at war with us and thus they act/will act in a according fashion. Hence it's not important to them if we sit about debating this matter. In fact they have gained the edge in this war since we can't even decide if we are at war with their organization. All they know (Al Qaida and friends) is that they will act in a manner consisting of a organization/religion at war (a holy war to the death) with a nation (Mainly the US) and culture (Western Civilization) who has yet to understand it is even being attacked in war like manner.
 
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Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
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My how the republican party has fallen.

The typical republican strategy is that of a macho man. Nuance? For faggots... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. WAR ON TERROR. BRING IT ON. AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

So delirious, the typical republican response...is that they don't even recognize when they sound like complete cowards. This past week has shown us what fear really does in this country. The absurd sceanrios of muslim prison breakouts, children kidnappings, and soldier losing their morale. All because there will be a trial in New York. Have we already forgotten about the soldiers in Fort. Hood? The multiple terror breakups? We are continous threats regardless of where this trial is held. Sincerely please read the Constitution. Its kind of a big deal. If you're not prepared to uphold that piece of paper move the Soviet Union, dig a big hole, and live the safe life.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
My how the republican party has fallen.

The typical republican strategy is that of a macho man. Nuance? For faggots... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. WAR ON TERROR. BRING IT ON. AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

So delirious, the typical republican response...is that they don't even recognize when they sound like complete cowards. This past week has shown us what fear really does in this country. The absurd sceanrios of muslim prison breakouts, children kidnappings, and soldier losing their morale. All because there will be a trial in New York. Have we already forgotten about the soldiers in Fort. Hood? The multiple terror breakups? We are continous threats regardless of where this trial is held. Sincerely please read the Constitution. Its kind of a big deal. If you're not prepared to uphold that piece of paper move the Soviet Union, dig a big hole, and live the safe life.

The Constitution applies to American citizens and not to foreign terrorists hell bent on destroying the US and Western civilization in order to impose their style of Islamic law and culture. They ( Al Qaida and the friends) are committed to their cause and have no doubts in their minds what the end goals are in their fight. They also do not quiver over the nature of their struggle which is that of a holy war. Sadly there those like yourself who would like to tie our hands with an opponent who likes to fight dirty and does not adhere to the rules of war sign and agreed upon by legitimate nations.

Of course these terrorists are not criminals. These are foreign state-less terrorists who have declared war against our nation. They are enemy combatants who lack a nation state to support them but none the less are war targets. We either address this point and act accordingly by shifting our laws to address this new paradigm or we all should give up and start praying towards the direction of Mecca.
 
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GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
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First, those arrested in this country go through the U.S. justice system. Those detained in the course of overseas operations, military and covert, are subject to different rules. You can't see the distinction?

No, the first WTC bombing suspects were captured, brought to the US, tried in Federal court, and locked up in prison. They are still safely in prison. We didn't have a problem them, before Bush used the fear from 9/11 to break the law.

Second, I have not advocated for indefinite detention. Team Bush should have done something different, they didn't and now we have Team Obama re-writing the rule book. Results to come later.

Actually, Obama is unfortunately following Bush. For the most part, he is giving us show trials on a few slam-dunks, and for people that we don't have evidence, he will just continue to have them locked up without trial. So much for a free country. No proof needed, just lock people up forever with no proof or trial.

Third, former U.S. Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, <snipped>

I said proof, not talking-head BS. A person who supports and worked for Bush isn't a reliable source. Given he as AG for Bush, he could be held accountable for illegal activities, and thus has a personal interest in pushing his views. Certainly his views lean heavily to authoritarian, given his support for torture, waterboarding, and PATRIOT act.

So do you have any real evidence, that trying cases in US federal court would reveal secrets? Because, again, we did it in the 90's without being overrun by terrorist hordes.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
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The Constitution applies to American citizens and not to foreign terrorists hell bent on destroying the US and Western civilization in order to impose their style of Islamic law and culture. They ( Al Qaida and the friends) are committed to their cause and have no doubts in their minds what the end goals are in their fight. They also do not quiver over the nature of their struggle which is that of a holy war. Sadly there those like yourself who would like to tie our hands with an opponent who likes to fight dirty and does not adhere to the rules of war sign and agreed upon by legitimate nations.

Of course these terrorists are not criminals. These are foreign state-less terrorists who have declared war against our nation. They are enemy combatants who lack a nation state to support them but none the less are war targets. We either address this point and act accordingly by shifting our laws to address this new paradigm or we all should give up and start praying towards the direction of Mecca.

Ah yes, the standard "they break the law, so I can to". Is that the best defense you can come up with? Gee, those evil men torture and kill our citizens, that makes it OK to stoop to their level and torture them back. Brilliant! Well done. Ignore our law whenever you feel like it, right? Is that like you being allowed to run a red light, but everyone else is expected to stop for it?

Do you tell your kids it's OK to break the law, if they see someone else do it? Do you support rapists being allows to be raped themselves, as "payback"? Vigilante justice? IF not, why to you supoprt it in this case?

And just to clue you in the US constitution and US federal laws apply to all government agencies, and also to anyone in the US, citizen or not. A CIA agent can't drag someone outside the US borders and murder him and say it's not illegal. Likewise, torture by a US citizen (gov't employee or military or anything) is illegal wherever it's done, regardless of location.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Your analogies hold some validity concerning Afghanistan, where the Taliban government did support alQaeda, but it fails on Iraq. Invading Iraq in response to an attack on American soil by Afghanistan-trained Saudis would be like Franklin Roosevelt responding to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor by declaring war on Siam.

I would agree completely if I thought Iraq was invaded in complete and direct response to 9/11. I think the Bush administration was convinced Hussein had restarted his WMD projects, but I don't think they were honestly that concerned that he would give or sell those WMDs to terrorists. This is obviously conjecture, but Hussein's contacts with terrorists seem to be cautious and limited. We know (or think we know) he gave them money, but money is fungible. There's a big difference between giving terrorists money (basically buying favor), something that almost every Muslim country does one way or another, and giving or selling WMDs that could almost definitely be traced back to Iraq. The former we had already proven we weren't willing to resume the war over; the second was almost a sure bet for resuming the war until Hussein's removal, otherwise he would have used his WMDs in '91.

I think one of the main reasons behind invading Iraq was his standing in Islam as a symbol that the USA was a paper tiger that might kill a few hundred thousand soldiers, but that could be successfully resisted and backed down with courage. His constant attacks on US aircraft really amounted to little except to point out to the world that he was still unconquered and unrepentant. Remember also that the Democrats continually criticized Bush 1 for not removing Hussein, even though that was outside the UN mandate and certainly would have torn apart his coalition (albeit with little real effect; the USA and the UK formed almost all the combat power.) Combine those two things with the fact that Hussein had previously tried to kill Bush 1 (or maybe Clinton, I forget), the fact that he could have transmitted WMDs (even if it was unlikely he would), and the prospect of establishing an Islamic democracy in the Middle East as an example to other Muslims - and throw in the political capital Bush gained simply by being president when we were attacked - and I think you've got the core reasons. I admit that I'm too lazy to search out his actual list of reasons though. Too much Bush-bashing fluff to search through. LOL

I might be completely wrong, of course. Removing Hussein from power became official US policy under Clinton; Bush confirmed that policy, but did nothing about it until after 9/11, even after numerous acts of aggression and violations of earlier UN resolutions. And everything changed after 9/11, all threats were re-evaluated. Maybe they had real, pressing concerns about Hussein's ties with terrorists, that after 9/11 appeared more serious. But from the outside looking in, I'm guessing that the strongest reasons for invading Iraq were those existing before 9/11, not those as a result of 9/11. Since we already had the legal justification (violations of the cease fire if nothing else), the questions then were "can we do it", and "should we do it"? Obviously we could. Whether we should have done it is, at this point, I think anyone's guess.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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On a geo-strategy level, the whole region was and is a global problem with disruptive wars and the export of terrorism. The only way you can fix that fast is by doing a little bit of conquest. Find a particularly nasty bit smack dab in the middle, which Hussein's Iraq certainly was, bring it down, insert hundreds of thousands of occupying troops until they see it your way and you get a stabilizing influence over the entire region. Israel and Iraq are the only two democracies there now, but places like Libya and Syria have been effectively cowed. Iran is still a major problem, but the Israelis are likely to have to take that one on while the US enjoys Obama's Nobel prize ceremony.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
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On a geo-strategy level, the whole region was and is a global problem with disruptive wars and the export of terrorism. The only way you can fix that fast is by doing a little bit of conquest. Find a particularly nasty bit smack dab in the middle, which Hussein's Iraq certainly was, bring it down, insert hundreds of thousands of occupying troops until they see it your way and you get a stabilizing influence over the entire region. Israel and Iraq are the only two democracies there now, but places like Libya and Syria have been effectively cowed. Iran is still a major problem, but the Israelis are likely to have to take that one on while the US enjoys Obama's Nobel prize ceremony.

While wholly ignoring the fact that invading a sovereign country is in violation of international law.