Are unpaid internships the way to go for people that have nice parents?

[Veliko]

And here is your problem. Really not worth discussing it anymore if you didn't read anything I posted already. Being responsible for tens of millions of dollars in assets is immaterial. Or that it's experience gained that you may not get elsewhere.

If the experience gained during an internship was so valuable then it means you were doing something that had value, so there was no need for you to do it for free.

Hence you were exploited.

 

[slugg]

I asked my career counselor about how to break the chicken or the egg scenario where a given job needs years of experience but how is one supposed to garner that experience without having had the job? Answer is internships paid or otherwise and only rich kids can get the unpaid internships so if you're lucky enough I vote go for it and milk it for all its worth. Building from nothing is quite a bit more challenging to say the least.

The career counselors at my university were complete idiots. I asked about the same chicken-or-egg problem you mentioned. They gave me some bullshit answer that didn't help at all.

My solution was a combination of tactics, although it may only work if you're in some kind of engineering field.

First, I taught myself practical, real-world skills that they don't teach in the classroom. With that, I started my own company. I worked cheaply at first, since I was just trying to get documented experience *and* I had some strict work constraints. Basically, I only took clients that would let me work from home after-hours and wasn't full time. Those clients are hard to find, especially while starting out. But one thing for sure is that companies would rather deal with a vendor (your company) than you on paper. Then, on your resume, you can say you worked at a company. Doing your own thing also gives you a huge advantage over people that go directly into big-corporate: you can complete an entire project from beginning to end, being involved in all aspects. Big-corporate projects are too big for one person, so you hardly get a chance to generalize.

So on top of contracting, I would keep writing research proposals. Eventually, I was brought in to some PhD level research as an undergrad. It was some pretty recognizable stuff. So I was never an intern; I was a researcher. Even though the pay was awful, it was still a "real" position on paper.

I got pissed at school and quit. Immediately, I contracted full time for a medical imaging company. I did some cool stuff there, but my boss was a total prick (you can search for my "wtf, my boss is on drugs or something" thread on ATOT) and I left. Immediately, I had companies swarming me and it wasn't a problem.

Biggest advice I can give you:
1. Make your OWN experience.
2. Ignore what your counselors tell you.
3. Talk to people IN INDUSTRY and get a feel for things.
4. Do not follow resume writing advice provided by your school - ask industry people to send you copies of stellar resumes and write your own.
5. Don't drink the Google, Amazon, or Apple punch. In other words, get a good job in a professional environment for high pay, not a "cool" job at a "cool" place because you're young and don't know any better. Money talks and bullshit walks.

Hope this helps.

 

[JM Aggie08]

Don't forget, if you get your A+ and Network+ you'll be on the fast track to becoming CEO. That's even with a liberal arts degree!

 

[Capt Caveman]

If the experience gained during an internship was so valuable then it means you were doing something that had value, so there was no need for you to do it for free.

Hence you were exploited.

/facepalm

Let's agree to disagree. I don't know of any paid internships where you're able to work up to Board of Directors of a credit union. I'm guessing volunteering at non-profits and being on the Board of some is exploitation too.

 

[Veliko]

/facepalm

Let's agree to disagree. I don't know of any paid internships where you're able to work up to Board of Directors of a credit union. I'm guessing volunteering at non-profits and being on the Board of some is exploitation too.

You're like the secretary who had to suck the bosses' cock to get a payrise but is in complete denial about it.

The fact she actually got a payrise doesn't alter the fact that she was exploited.

 

[Ns1]

//edit

n/m, fuck it.

 

[Capt Caveman]

You're like the secretary who had to suck the bosses' cock to get a payrise but is in complete denial about it.

The fact she actually got a payrise doesn't alter the fact that she was exploited.

And the same to you for volunteering for the boyscouts. Not sure if you're a hypocrite or a retard.

When I go volunteer at the animal rescue and at the community farm that I'm a member of, I'm so going to feel exploited.

 

[Veliko]

And the same to you for volunteering for the boyscouts. Not sure if you're a hypocrite or a retard.

When I go volunteer at the animal rescue and at the community farm that I'm a member of, I'm so going to feel exploited.

If you think that volunteering and doing charity work is the same thing as doing an internship then it is you who is the retard.

 

[Ns1]

If you think that volunteering and doing charity work is the same thing as doing an internship then it is you who is the retard.

jesus christ man, the point is the same. you do work for free to gain experience and a network.

i'm outta this thread now.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Co-ops and internships are great to gain experience and I highly recommend them if they are offered. I only did co-op myself in high school and no internship in college but I would have done it if it had been an option.

If you can it's always a good idea to stay at home through college till you can find a job. Unless your parents are complete assholes I'm sure most would approve as long as you help yourself along the way. Get a summer job between school years to pay your tuition, save your money, don't spend it all on chicks and blow. Help around the house, even buy groceries every now and then etc... When you graduate then show an effort on finding a full time job, then from there save up for a down payment on a house and other expenses of moving out.

Being in the house till 30 is kind of pushing it though. 1-3 years working full time at a real job should make you plenty of money to move out. I ended up working a year or two then moved out at 23. I got lucky though, I went and picked a field (IT) that does not have all that much jobs here yet landed a job within a few months (if less, I don't remember for sure) of graduating.

 

[Veliko]

jesus christ man, the point is the same. you do work for free to gain experience and a network.

No, it's completely different.

If I volunteer to assist with the Scouts or a charity event it's because I want to help out. Oddly enough, organising a football match for some teenagers doesn't give me any experience for anything other than, well, organising a football match for some teenagers.

If I have to do an unpaid internship then it's because someone is exploiting me.

 

[Imp]

my impression is that unpaid internships are the norm in creative/entertainment fields (eg: interning for a magazine, radio station, etc), but much less so in science/engineering fields.

My impression is that the media industry like TV shows and magazines use the most unpaid internships. From what I've read, it even sounds like a right of passage.

Damn is that really necessary? Why do people get so worked up over the stupidest things ?

Someone was "wrong" on the internet...

 

[Capt Caveman]

If you think that volunteering and doing charity work is the same thing as doing an internship then it is you who is the retard.

B/c there are no unpaid internships in the non-profit and not-for-profit space. I bet I just blew your mind.

 

[Imp]

From what I've read, it's legal to have unpaid internships that don't displace employees -- as you aren't "productive"? Shadowing, observing, sitting around, extraneous activities, and networking okay? And once you start doing an actual job the company requires, one should be paid?

Problem starts when the kiddies do "real work", which is likely the best type of experience. If it's "real work" though, shouldn't they be compensated for their labor? Maybe the company can't afford to pay them? But if the company can't afford to pay them but needs the labor, then is there something wrong with their business model? If a regular employee could have done the work, then aren't they "displacing" a paid worker? Why not just have a paid entry-level position or a paid internship then?

I think the "exploitation" starts when companies begin structuring their businesses around having a steady supply of free labor, or using it while they can to save on costs. Their pool of candidates includes naive, fresh out of college graduates who are likely ignorant of employment laws, and desperate for experience. So, it goes down to intention. Not every unpaid internship is exploitative, but not every one is "clean".

Edit: Someone will probably pounce because I didn't mention non-profits or charities. Their entire "business" is centered around people sending them free money to, hopefully, do something "good". In that case, I can understand someone "volunteering" their time to contribute to something good and get into the the industry to continue doing good. But there are companies making millions/billions per year and still use unpaid internships... I don't consider that "volunteering" for a greater good.

 

[videogames101]

if you are in engineering, expect t0 get paid during an internship - you're a cheap employee, not an intern

 

[slugg]

So you worked for free yet you don't feel exploited?

And anyone who objects to working for free is lacking in motivation and work ethic...?

I completely agree with you. Unlike a lot of people, I didn't sit back and take it, though. My situation was slightly different, although similar in spirit.

I was a researcher that was contracted through my university, so I got minimum wage. They continually treated me like a piece of crap and refused to pay overtime. I felt absolutely exploited; I was working with doctors that had 7 figure incomes and barely did any work at all, yet I was barely able to afford the food on my plate. I wasn't doing minimum wage work, either (autonomous cancer diagnosis systems)... But I couldn't quit, because if I did, I'd lose my scholarship. So it really did feel like slave labor. I grew to hate it, hate life, and hate the situation. It wasn't fair treatment. They exploited me based on the fact that I was a student. They paid their other contractor, who sucked major cock, $180 an hour.

So I quit with zero notice. That prompted me to quit school, too. Then I did exactly the same thing I was doing for minimum wage, although this time, I was contracted directly by an ophthalmology company and billed what would have been almost $200k a year. Granted, it did not last (I quit and moved on to a much larger company for less pay, but better job).

And now I'm happy.

 

[kyrax12]

I completely agree with you. Unlike a lot of people, I didn't sit back and take it, though. My situation was slightly different, although similar in spirit.

I was a researcher that was contracted through my university, so I got minimum wage. They continually treated me like a piece of crap and refused to pay overtime. I felt absolutely exploited; I was working with doctors that had 7 figure incomes and barely did any work at all, yet I was barely able to afford the food on my plate. I wasn't doing minimum wage work, either (autonomous cancer diagnosis systems)... But I couldn't quit, because if I did, I'd lose my scholarship. So it really did feel like slave labor. I grew to hate it, hate life, and hate the situation. It wasn't fair treatment. They exploited me based on the fact that I was a student. They paid their other contractor, who sucked major cock, $180 an hour.

So I quit with zero notice. That prompted me to quit school, too. Then I did exactly the same thing I was doing for minimum wage, although this time, I was contracted directly by an ophthalmology company and billed what would have been almost $200k a year. Granted, it did not last (I quit and moved on to a much larger company for less pay, but better job).

And now I'm happy.

Would you have been contracted by an ophthalmology company if you didn't do your initial internship required by your school scholarship?

 

[slugg]

Would you have been contracted by an ophthalmology company if you didn't do your initial internship required by your school scholarship?

If I had a crystal ball, I could answer your question. But what we know for a fact is that the school tried to trap me into minimum wage, borderline abusive work environment (60+ hours a week, no overtime, still a full time student), yet the value of my work far exceeded that. Don't need a crystal ball to explain that one.

I think unpaid internships and underpaid internships are an exploitation of student labor. They take it because they have no other choice. The pressure is immense when you have no other financial help (i.e. parents). Student loans are insidious and the less fortunate dig the hole deeper than those with caring parents.

Work is work. "Intern" is just some stupid excuse companies use to get cheap labor. I don't support it. Internships should be abolished and companies should just open part time positions at the same rates as any other entry level job. And "entry level" should be just that: ENTRY level. These ridiculous job postings for "entry level engineers with 7 years experience" need to be abolished as well.

 

[kyrax12]

If I had a crystal ball, I could answer your question. But what we know for a fact is that the school tried to trap me into minimum wage, borderline abusive work environment (60+ hours a week, no overtime, still a full time student), yet the value of my work far exceeded that. Don't need a crystal ball to explain that one.

I think unpaid internships and underpaid internships are an exploitation of student labor. They take it because they have no other choice. The pressure is immense when you have no other financial help (i.e. parents). Student loans are insidious and the less fortunate dig the hole deeper than those with caring parents.

Work is work. "Intern" is just some stupid excuse companies use to get cheap labor. I don't support it. Internships should be abolished and companies should just open part time positions at the same rates as any other entry level job. And "entry level" should be just that: ENTRY level. These ridiculous job postings for "entry level engineers with 7 years experience" need to be abolished as well.

But the underlying problem is experience. I would think most company would be more willing to take unpaid interns than paid interns.

Experience(s) is basically a requirement as it act as a supplement to your degree.

I mean you would have to endure like a year or two, before you can land a better gig.

 

[slugg]

But the underlying problem is experience. I would think most company would be more willing to take unpaid interns than paid interns.

Experience(s) is basically a requirement as it act as a supplement to your degree.

I mean you would have to endure like a year or two, before you and land a better gig.

Of COURSE most companies would rather take a free intern. Why wouldn't they? Free labor! And a paid intern is, well, cheap labor. If you suck, they'll kick you out. Trust me. I've seen it happen many times. So how is that different from a real job? The difference is how much you get paid.

But hey, I may not agree with what you have to say, but.... you know the rest.

 

[MongGrel]

The career counselors at my university were complete idiots. I asked about the same chicken-or-egg problem you mentioned. They gave me some bullshit answer that didn't help at all.

My solution was a combination of tactics, although it may only work if you're in some kind of engineering field.

First, I taught myself practical, real-world skills that they don't teach in the classroom. With that, I started my own company. I worked cheaply at first, since I was just trying to get documented experience *and* I had some strict work constraints. Basically, I only took clients that would let me work from home after-hours and wasn't full time. Those clients are hard to find, especially while starting out. But one thing for sure is that companies would rather deal with a vendor (your company) than you on paper. Then, on your resume, you can say you worked at a company. Doing your own thing also gives you a huge advantage over people that go directly into big-corporate: you can complete an entire project from beginning to end, being involved in all aspects. Big-corporate projects are too big for one person, so you hardly get a chance to generalize.

So on top of contracting, I would keep writing research proposals. Eventually, I was brought in to some PhD level research as an undergrad. It was some pretty recognizable stuff. So I was never an intern; I was a researcher. Even though the pay was awful, it was still a "real" position on paper.

I got pissed at school and quit. Immediately, I contracted full time for a medical imaging company. I did some cool stuff there, but my boss was a total prick (you can search for my "wtf, my boss is on drugs or something" thread on ATOT) and I left. Immediately, I had companies swarming me and it wasn't a problem.

Biggest advice I can give you:
1. Make your OWN experience.
2. Ignore what your counselors tell you.
3. Talk to people IN INDUSTRY and get a feel for things.
4. Do not follow resume writing advice provided by your school - ask industry people to send you copies of stellar resumes and write your own.
5. Don't drink the Google, Amazon, or Apple punch. In other words, get a good job in a professional environment for high pay, not a "cool" job at a "cool" place because you're young and don't know any better. Money talks and bullshit walks.

Hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

 

[sze5003]

If I had a crystal ball, I could answer your question. But what we know for a fact is that the school tried to trap me into minimum wage, borderline abusive work environment (60+ hours a week, no overtime, still a full time student), yet the value of my work far exceeded that. Don't need a crystal ball to explain that one.

I think unpaid internships and underpaid internships are an exploitation of student labor. They take it because they have no other choice. The pressure is immense when you have no other financial help (i.e. parents). Student loans are insidious and the less fortunate dig the hole deeper than those with caring parents.

Work is work. "Intern" is just some stupid excuse companies use to get cheap labor. I don't support it. Internships should be abolished and companies should just open part time positions at the same rates as any other entry level job. And "entry level" should be just that: ENTRY level. These ridiculous job postings for "entry level engineers with 7 years experience" need to be abolished as well.

Yea I've been doing entry level work for couple years now if you can count writing cash flow calculation engines entry level plus helping others, doing extra stuff for my manager/ other managers yet they always need an excuse or opening to promote you. It's BS managers don't want to promote anyone due to the tight chain of command and shit storm they will get if they don't have a reason. And most of them don't, since they rarely ever know what we are working on.

Pay is decent and good benefits, little bonuses on year end which is why I'm staying currently.

 

[Veliko]

B/c there are no unpaid internships in the non-profit and not-for-profit space. I bet I just blew your mind.

Non-sequitars generally blow my mind.

Do you think that these two scenarios are the same:

- I volunteer to help out with the local Scout group. I organise games of football and help them pack the minibus when they go on camps.

- Doing unpaid work for a company.

 

[brainhulk]

This isn't rocket science guys. Supply/demand factors will dictate your path. Have lots of people trying to get the same job you are? What do you think you'll need to do to demonstrate your value, show your work ethic, and get your foot in the door? What are your competitors doing? Think unpaid internships are unfair?

Good for you if you find a path that pays you while gaining that foot in the door. If those doors are shut, well...sucks to be you

PSA: Life isn't fair

 

[Veliko]

PSA: Life isn't fair

I don't think there's any discussion on the planet whereby pointing out that "life isn't fair" is either an intelligent or insightful observation.

Doctor, I'm bleeding!
Sorry, life isn't fair.