Are there any Athiest here?

[Avalon]

Never met one, not sure they actually exist?

 

[PowerEngineer]

Yes, we can't say we know anything with 100% certainty. There are limits to how sure we can be about what we think we know. But the question surely has to be - how do you actually _live_ your day-to-day life, now? Do you start off every morning being agnostic as to whether the floor will still be there when you get out of bed? Do you assume it's a reasonable chance that you can cross the road right in front of a speeding truck, confident it will just harmlessly pass through you - because it would be presumptious to say there was no chance in hell that it would do so?

That's the thing about "agnosticism" - I've yet to meet an agnostic who actually lives as if they are truly agnostic about the facts of the world. Mostly they live the same way the athiests do. They rarely jump off high buildings on the off chance that "maybe they can fly, who can say for sure?" Nor do they seem to be that worried about the fact that by many religious strictures they are damning themselves to eternal suffering by their lifestyle or failure to perform some ritual or other. I just think agnosticism is in bad-faith - agnostics mostly aren't really agnostic, they just _say_ they are.

Agnostic -- at least the way I use the term -- is along the lines of this definition: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

I do agree with you that the beliefs a person relies on to make day-to-day decisions are what really count, and I will suggest to you that we all use some form of Bayesian logic to decide which possible beliefs seem likely enough to be true to include in our decision making.

None of the religious beliefs that I have encountered seem likely enough to be true for me to shape my life around. But on the other hand, I haven't ever been presented with evidence that convincingly rules out the possible existence of some sort of god. So I characterize myself as agnostic in that I cannot be completely sure that any of the many beliefs about gods (including god's nonexistence) are untrue, but the Bayesian logic I use to identify beliefs to govern my actions discounts all of them as being most likely untrue and therefore not considered in my decision making.

Similarly, I cannot be 100% sure the sun will rise tomorrow but my Bayesian logic tells me that it most likely will, and so I will set my alarm clock tonight.

IMHO there is an important difference between reasonable certainty and 100% certainty that shouldn't be glossed over even though we do have to go through life making decisions based on the former.

 

[biostud]

If you want to find God scientifically , then you need to define what God is. Good luck with that. And if you actually prove something like that, then it can't be supernatural or a God.

 

[Muse]

For fun, can you please provide a citation that Einstein ever actually made that quote?

Well, a casual internet search comes up with this at the top:

Einstein’s Quotes on Buddhism

6.23 Confucius said, "When a cornered vessel no longer has any corners, should it be called a cornered vessel? Should it?" - The Analects, quoted in

tricycle.org

 

[Muse]

If there are supernatural beings then pretty much every thing we know about physics is rubbish.
Thats a really high bar to ask people to entertain with literally no evidence supporting it.

Gets epistemological here, but pretty much by definition, "supernatural" means beyond natural and a scientifically minded, philosophically minded person could pshaw that away like a fly off their arm. How can anything be supernatural?

 

[pmv]

Well, a casual internet search comes up with this at the top:

Einstein’s Quotes on Buddhism

6.23 Confucius said, "When a cornered vessel no longer has any corners, should it be called a cornered vessel? Should it?" - The Analects, quoted in

tricycle.org

That link seems to be saying that the attribution to Einstein is spurious.

Einstein seems to be one of those guys who gets endless numbers of quotes misattributed to him.

 

[Muse]

None of that is supernatural and none of that involves a consciousness that transcends natural laws.
In short none of that has anything to do with God.

The only concept of God that makes any sense to me is just the universe as a whole, "the ultimate ground of being," and the idea that it is all one, and that you as a sentient being are in reality just that, the whole thing, i.e. that you ARE God. I am God, we are both God, there is in reality no differentiation. Not knowing this just means that you are not fully conscious.

There is no such thing as simultaneity. That's a figment of your imagination if you think that has any meaning. It has meaning in terms of mental tools we're taught to use, that's all. But it's a fiction, a useful fiction. "Time is man's invention."

One of the more interesting thoughts I've encountered recently was from an Alan Watts video I heard recently. He noted that there's no difference between you and an alien intelligence somewhere out there in the universe, e.g. in a far away galaxy. You're really the same.

 

[Muse]

That link seems to be saying that the attribution to Einstein is spurious.

Einstein seems to be one of those guys who gets endless numbers of quotes misattributed to him.

Sensible enough. Albert may well have agreed to it, I think.

 

[pmv]

None of the religious beliefs that I have encountered seem likely enough to be true for me to shape my life around. But on the other hand, I haven't ever been presented with evidence that convincingly rules out the possible existence of some sort of god. So I characterize myself as agnostic in that I cannot be completely sure that any of the many beliefs about gods (including god's nonexistence) are untrue, but the Bayesian logic I use to identify beliefs to govern my actions discounts all of them as being most likely untrue and therefore not considered in my decision making.

I would argue that your definition of 'agnostic' here is exactly what I mean when I call myself an 'atheist'. i.e. someone without religious belief sufficient to affect their actual behaviour. To me that's what "atheist" means. Surely an 'agnostic' would have a greater, and more active, level of uncertainty than that? Someone who calls themselves an agnostic would surely have to actively live in a way that suggests they genuinely consider that various Gods, with their various rules and generally infinite penalties for breaking them, may exist? Given that those stakes are usually infinite and eternal, that means if you even consider them remotely probable, you have to take them very seriously. Even a 1% chance of eternal damnation is a pretty serious consequence to take into account.

Again, I think people confuse a-theist with anti-theist. Someone like Dawkins is more the latter.

Also I just find it mildly irritating when people make a big deal out of being 'agnostic' rather than 'atheist', in that it seems like posture-striking when it carries no cost as it apparently makes no difference to actual behaviour.

 

[LikeLinus]

Well, a casual internet search comes up with this at the top:

Einstein’s Quotes on Buddhism

6.23 Confucius said, "When a cornered vessel no longer has any corners, should it be called a cornered vessel? Should it?" - The Analects, quoted in

tricycle.org

You didn't actually bother reading that link, did you?

"So these quotes, interesting and entertaining as they are, should be shelved, or at least have the Einstein attribution removed, until someone can tell us from whence they originally came."

That quote has never had a citation or confirmed to have ever come from Einstein.

Hence, your "favorite quote", isn't a real quote from Einstein. I know the origins of the quote, but they never even provided a citation and no other publication has ever used it and scholars have agreed that it should not be attributed to him.

 

[Muse]

I would say don't take your beliefs too seriously. They are just part of your experience. They aren't set in stone. What you believe today won't be the same thing you believe tomorrow. Why? Because you will be you tomorrow, not that person who had that "belief" today. Make sense? "Sense." You have 5 senses. They operate in the present.

 

[Muse]

You didn't actually bother reading that link, did you?

"So these quotes, interesting and entertaining as they are, should be shelved, or at least have the Einstein attribution removed, until someone can tell us from whence they originally came."

That quote has never been had a citation or confirmed to have ever come from Einstein.

Hence, your "favorite quote", isn't a real quote from Einstein. I know the origins of the quote, but they never even provided a citation and no other publication has ever used it and scholars have agreed that it should not be attributed to him.

I did read it, and I think I actually read it a year or two ago, forgot to delete the Einstein attribution from it. I'll do that now in my table of quotations.

 

[LikeLinus]

Much the same for me, and while I have no animosity for true believers, I do recognize the threat they pose to society. They cannot be converted, but reading personal accounts of how some theists lost their belief and became atheists, it was because they began to think and most importantly question what they had been taught to believe.

I have met some absoulty horrible people that hide behind the cloak of religion. One piece of advise I do remember learning from my dad, was "there is only one reason to go to church on Sunday. It is to see who is sitting on the front pew, for that is that man that will screw you on Monday". I found that to be very sage advise later in life, though I never went on Sunday. The business man with a large cross necklace worn outside his suit and over his tie... yea, he would make Trump look like an honest man.

Here is where you lose me. You are basically admitting to being a bigot. How is making the assumption that anyone who goes to church or wears a cross, is a dishonest person? It's no different than making the assumptions about people of color or sex. You are using stereotypes and bigotry to automatically make an assumption about a person.

 

[LikeLinus]

I did read it, and I think I actually read it a year or two ago, forgot to delete the Einstein attribution from it. I'll do that now in my table of quotations.

No worries, you wouldn't be the first. Wanted to point that out because I've seen it before and read about the suspect origins.

 

[LikeLinus]

I would say don't take your beliefs too seriously.

This. Honestly, threads like this are total bait. They know there is going to be a huge back and forth. I will say, Atheist (at least online) seem to use the same superior and demeaning attitude they claim <insert religion here>, they want to talk down about. Is it really necessary? It's completely stupid all around, both sides. You are no better than anyone you are trashing. It's all just a belief! Atheist believe one thing. Religious people believe another. You're all trying to superior to each other. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence should realize that and not argue or demean the each other. We're all here on the same dot in the vast universe. Get over yourself.

 

[Muse]

Here is where you lose me. You are basically admitting to being a bigot. How is making the assumption that anyone who goes to church or wears a cross, is a dishonest person? It's no different than making the assumptions about people of color or sex. You are using stereotypes and bigotry to automatically make an assumption about a person.

I'll offer a quotation of which I'm pretty certain. One of my favorite movies is The Philadelphia Story (the sceen play of which struck me as Shakespearean) and the heroine (played by Katharine Hepburn) has the line: "The time to make up your mind about people is..."

Spoiler

NEVER!

 

[WelshBloke]

This. Honestly, threads like this are total bait. They know there is going to be a huge back and forth. I will say, Atheist (at least online) seem to use the same superior and demeaning attitude they claim <insert religion here>, they want to talk down about. Is it really necessary? It's completely stupid all around, both sides. You are no better than anyone you are trashing. It's all just a belief! Atheist believe one thing. Religious people believe another. You're all trying to superior to each other. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence should realize that and not argue or demean the each other. We're all here on the same dot in the vast universe. Get over yourself.

It isn't about whose superior, or about people at all. I dint know why personality or attitude should come onto this.
Either God exists or not. And there's no evidence that he/she/it does, and as its one of those things that would have massive ramifications for how things work then its pretty self evident that there is no god.
Whether you find people patronising or annoying online doesn't make any difference to that.

 

[LikeLinus]

I'll offer a quotation of which I'm pretty certain. One of my favorite movies is The Philadelphia Story and the heroine (played by Katharine Hepburn) has the line: "The time to make up your mind about people is...

Well, this confused me, lol. I would have to know the context and what the rest of the quote was. I've never seen the movie and had to look it up.

“The time to make up your mind about people, is never.”

I 100% agree.

EDIT: Never mind, you added a spoiler and I missed it.

 

[Muse]

Well, this confused me, lol. I would have to know the context and what the rest of the quote was. I've never seen the movie and had to look it up.

“The time to make up your mind about people, is never.”

I 100% agree.

EDIT: Never mind, you added a spoiler and I missed it.

Took me a couple minutes to get the spoiler tag thing working properly. It really needed spoiler tags! I think of that quote a lot because I need to.

 

[LikeLinus]

It isn't about whose superior, or about people at all. I dint know why personality or attitude should come onto this.
Either God exists or not. And there's no evidence that he/she/it does, and as its one of those things that would have massive ramifications for how things work then its pretty self evident that there is no god.
Whether you find people patronising or annoying online doesn't make any difference to that.

I shouldn't have been so broad with that word. That was more directed at the person I quoted. But the overall meaning in the same. I'm just saying, is this really worth fighting or judging others on?

My comment on people online, was meaning that I've never known many Atheist to talk down to a Christian in real life. Here, you're semi-anonymous and people are more likely to be vocal and trash on those religious people you may not agree with.

 

[WelshBloke]

I shouldn't have been so broad with that word. That was more directed at the person I quoted. But the overall meaning in the same. I'm just saying, is this really worth fighting or judging others on?

I'm not judging anyone, I'm not really arguing or fighting about it. I'm stating a self evident truth.
Now you may say that thats what religious people believe as well. But thats the difference. They just believe it because their "truth" is built on faith, and faith isn't about truth.

 

[Muse]

I like the word "paradigm." I think a lot of confusion about God, and all the thoughts, words related has to do with the paradigms people have in their minds/lives.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I have nothing but contempt for superstition.
I have empathy for the superstitious.

 

[Muse]

This. Honestly, threads like this are total bait. They know there is going to be a huge back and forth. I will say, Atheist (at least online) seem to use the same superior and demeaning attitude they claim <insert religion here>, they want to talk down about. Is it really necessary? It's completely stupid all around, both sides. You are no better than anyone you are trashing. It's all just a belief! Atheist believe one thing. Religious people believe another. You're all trying to superior to each other. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence should realize that and not argue or demean the each other. We're all here on the same dot in the vast universe. Get over yourself.

A guy I knew and held in very high regard said that some years ago and I think of it a lot. Easy to say, not necessarily easy to do. Easier for some people than others, that's clear.

 

[WelshBloke]

I have nothing but contempt for superstition.
I have empathy for the superstitious.

That black cat thing.
I can never remember. Is it lucky or unlucky when one crosses your path?