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are teabaggers only concerned with federal gubment?

Are the teabaggers only concerned with the size and influence of the Federal government and how the framers intended limited government?

Would reducing the size of the Federal government and an increase in the state government be more beneficial to managing the cash and needs of the individual constituents? I think the framers foresaw a small fedearal government and the states t do as they wish within reason with the FED as a mediator..(think 10th amendment)

this would reduce the blue states from blaming the red states for stealing their money and the red states could stop complaining the blue states steal their money. States would have taxes as they saw fit and welfare also as they saw fit. The bleeding heart liberals in california could vote to have ridiculous welfare programs, knowing that they would directly foot the bill for it....
 
Depends who is running a given government entity. If it's democrats running it, they don't like it. If it's reblublicans, the "tea party" doesn't exist. They're probably fine with their red state governments. Those who live in blue states, not so much.
 
No. And considering California pays a lot more in federal taxes that go to Red states than it gets, we're ALREADY paying for our liberal programs.
 
The nice thing about giving states more control is that it's easier for individuals to influence policy at the state level. This is the entire idea of Federalism, that each state would be its own republic with policies that the residents approved of, instead of imposing a one size fits all Federal government on everyone.
 
No. And considering California pays a lot more in federal taxes that go to Red states than it gets, we're ALREADY paying for our liberal programs.

well that's sorta my point, they wouldn't be responsible to send money to the red states, they could implement policies that they want and pay for those policies..... if the red states want to have welfare programs, they can be responsible and pay for it themselves ....
 
The nice thing about giving states more control is that it's easier for individuals to influence policy at the state level. This is the entire idea of Federalism, that each state would be its own republic with policies that the residents approved of, instead of imposing a one size fits all Federal government on everyone.

Each is its own "republic" = Articles of Confederation. Federalism is a balance.

As it stands, state laws and local ordinances are more far more likely to have direct application in the life of an individual than are federal laws. People who are anti-federal government don't seem to realize that for some reason.
 
Another thing: times change, right-wingers.

The fact is, the country today is one the founding fathers couldn't recognize. They couldn't have every policy they did that fit our society as perfectly as it did theirs.

As my first witness to prove my point, I call any of the founding fathers. THEY are the ones who recognized this as well, ensuring the constitution could change and grow.

It's these fundamentalists who demand that every policy be just the same as it was for 18th century America - and who are not consistent even at that, only when it suits their prejudices - that are the enemies of the founding fathers' intent for how the country should be run.

So, am I saying the constitution is wrong, outdated? No. In fact, there are some timeless principles the founding fathers caught. Free speech was an issue then when John Adams wanted to put you in jail for criticizing him, as it is today when you want to Twitter that Obama was not born in the US. Illegal search and seizure was an issue then and now. Not having the state establish a religion was relevant then and now. All kinds of things are relevant. But not everything is.

The fact is, about your magical formula of 'federal' versus 'state' power, it comes from a time when it was a very different situation - when you needed colonies to give up some of their jealously guarded sovereignity that happened to have been created by how England set things up. You had to make compromises to get that to happen. The same people had tried once, more your direction for 'states' rights', and failed with the Articles of Confederation.

So, that's fine, that's how it happened. It doesn't mean every bit of the power balance then is the optimal balance today in a hugely different society.

We don't have to even change the constitution to adjust - just the flexibility it provides, instead of misusing every word by the founding fathers as something that has to be followed exactly the same today, and even that is only what the Tea Party claims to do, not what it does - they really don't know much about the founding fathers, and just hide behind them to claim any crazy idea they want is a 'founding principle'.

You talk about the founding fathers' views on 'small federal government'. But how much did they appreciate today's society, when they ran a tiny country smaller than our cities today where the biggest house in the country was the size of today's tract home, the White House was the biggest building in America, over 90% of the citizens were on farms, and corporations were tiny groups of people who organized for a specific activity like building something for a limited time, subject to the government saying it was for the public good? In a time without electricity except for one citizen nearly killed by it named Franklin, much less computers and internets and nuclear missiles.

If we're sticking to the literal same federal government, can we stick to the literal same corporations too? Instead of the multi-nationals with revenue more than most countries?

Who pour billions to corrupt our elections and our citizens for their anti-public agendas?

The descendants of the tiny, baby corporations about whom even Thomas Jefferson said:

I hope we shall take warning from the example [of England] and crush in it's [sic] birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws our country.

But your answer is to have an 18th century federal government and a 21st century corporatocracy, where there is no competition in that 'trial of strength' he mentioned.

Funny, I bet the corporations agree with you.

Save234
 
Tea baggers are radical dissidents who aren't happy with much of anything. If you took away the federal government altogether they'd just find other things to attack. Blacks, gays, lesbians, you name it they really, really, hate it.
 
well that's sorta my point, they wouldn't be responsible to send money to the red states, they could implement policies that they want and pay for those policies..... if the red states want to have welfare programs, they can be responsible and pay for it themselves ....
Are the states also responsible for handling their own [natural] disasters? Forest fires? Earthquake? Tornado? Hurricane? Flooding? You're on your own?
 
The nice thing about giving states more control is that it's easier for individuals to influence policy at the state level. This is the entire idea of Federalism, that each state would be its own republic with policies that the residents approved of, instead of imposing a one size fits all Federal government on everyone.

Everyone likes more state power when it comes to federal policies they disagree with, and everyone reasonable likes federal power when it comes to overriding state policies they strongly disagree with. Most people think it's a pretty good idea for the federal government to tell states they can't not let blacks vote, or put gays in jail for being gay.

Finding that balance is not as easy as demagogues who rail against 'federal government'.
 
The Federal government has a narrowly defined purpose as spelled out in the Constitution (defense, common currency, regulate interstate commerce, etc). It should not be in charge of handing out welfare or redistributing money from state to state or telling states how to run their school programs or anything like that.

I'd like to see the Federal government reduced to about $50-75 billion or so. That'd give us enough to spend on the military (similar level of spending to France/UK/Russia) and do other misc. stuff the Feds should be doing.

The State governments should have the power to do whatever they want (within the limits of the Constitution, no restricting rights or anything like certain states do to the 2nd Amendment). If they want their big government programs, they would be free to implement them. If the citizens of said state didn't like those programs they could move to other states that fit their views of how the government should be run better.

I don't understand the people that want the Federal government to do EVERYTHING. I just got back from Montana, it's like a different country almost compared to California. The notion that the Federal government can have everyone's best interests in mind is ridiculous, with a country as diverse and spread out as the United States is.
 
Holy crap, I checked my calendar and it is in fact 1776!

Thank you for checking the date, cause if it wasn't we could just shred the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and have nothing more than mob rule! F' those old fashion ideas of freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right boys? They're SO 1776.

We'll replace it all with modern ideas for modern people. Our society will progress past those pesky confines that stopped us from doing what we want unto others.
 
You want to get rid of the EPA, NIH, etc.? Give me a fucking break you loony tunes. Go crawl back into your bomb shelters. More power to the state governments? So idiot states like Kansas can stop teaching evolution in schools and push intelligent design bullshit in science class? No thanks.

The Federal Government is the way it is because our society has demanded it. If we truly wanted small government then that is what we would have. Clearly there are things we can improve upon, but completely shredding the Federal Gov't isn't the answer.

Imagine what would have happened if the Federal Gov't didn't have the authority to declare segregation illegal?
 
You want to get rid of the EPA, NIH, etc.? Give me a fucking break you loony tunes. Go crawl back into your bomb shelters. More power to the state governments? So idiot states like Kansas can stop teaching evolution in schools and push intelligent design bullshit in science class? No thanks.

Don't like it? Move. Or vote out whoever wrote the law.

Imagine what would have happened if the Federal Gov't didn't have the authority to declare segregation illegal?

No one (or I'm not at least, I don't consider myself a "teabagger") is suggesting that the rights of any citizen should be infringed upon by either the state or federal government.
 
I'm not saying do away with the Fed altogether, just move some more of the responsibilities over to the state level.....

"if we wanted smaller government that's what we would have"
nonsense. it's supposed to be a government of the people, by the people. now when 67% of the population supports a bill such as BBA, the senate isn't even considering it. the government has grown so big it is a huge entity that feels like it is always looming.... "the government" not "our government"
 
well that's sorta my point, they wouldn't be responsible to send money to the red states, they could implement policies that they want and pay for those policies..... if the red states want to have welfare programs, they can be responsible and pay for it themselves ....

But it cannot work that way - for starters a hell of a lot of the poorer states can't even afford to maintain their own roads, have large numbers of their residents below the poverty line, etc.

We'd have to effectively end everything related to the welfare state because the states that need it the most have no chance of paying for it, and huge parts of the country would basically become third world overnight.

Heard something on NPR two days ago about NM, something like 40% of their population is on medicare/medicaid - that's obscene.
 
As it stands, state laws and local ordinances are more far more likely to have direct application in the life of an individual than are federal laws. People who are anti-federal government don't seem to realize that for some reason.

That used to be the case. But quite frequently, laws now come down to the states from the feds and the states have no choice but to comply with the federal blackmailers. War on Drugs anyone?
 
I wouldnt mind smaller government and stronger state control. It would allow each state to tax as it and its people see fit on things the people of said state want, or dont want. It would be a great lesson to see which states and policies faired much better compared to other states. Some states would probably really suck and others would be really good. But with that comes freedom to move to the state that suits your needs/wants the best. With Fed control the whole country is affected by its decisions. Im not saying oblish the Fed. They have their uses and should cover the larger things. Civil rights, interstate commerce, military etc.

I think after a few decades it would become clear what works well and what doesnt work well when it comes to the amount of taxation and programs implemented in certain states.
 
Are the states also responsible for handling their own [natural] disasters? Forest fires? Earthquake? Tornado? Hurricane? Flooding? You're on your own?

building codes in california and florida are different due to the different disasters that are likely. so, yes, states are to some degree already responsible for handling their own natural disasters. is that really such an alien concept? laboratories of democracy?
 
Another thing: times change, right-wingers.

The fact is, the country today is one the founding fathers couldn't recognize. They couldn't have every policy they did that fit our society as perfectly as it did theirs.

As my first witness to prove my point, I call any of the founding fathers. THEY are the ones who recognized this as well, ensuring the constitution could change and grow.

It's these fundamentalists who demand that every policy be just the same as it was for 18th century America - and who are not consistent even at that, only when it suits their prejudices - that are the enemies of the founding fathers' intent for how the country should be run.

So, am I saying the constitution is wrong, outdated? No. In fact, there are some timeless principles the founding fathers caught. Free speech was an issue then when John Adams wanted to put you in jail for criticizing him, as it is today when you want to Twitter that Obama was not born in the US. Illegal search and seizure was an issue then and now. Not having the state establish a religion was relevant then and now. All kinds of things are relevant. But not everything is.

The fact is, about your magical formula of 'federal' versus 'state' power, it comes from a time when it was a very different situation - when you needed colonies to give up some of their jealously guarded sovereignity that happened to have been created by how England set things up. You had to make compromises to get that to happen. The same people had tried once, more your direction for 'states' rights', and failed with the Articles of Confederation.

So, that's fine, that's how it happened. It doesn't mean every bit of the power balance then is the optimal balance today in a hugely different society.

We don't have to even change the constitution to adjust - just the flexibility it provides, instead of misusing every word by the founding fathers as something that has to be followed exactly the same today, and even that is only what the Tea Party claims to do, not what it does - they really don't know much about the founding fathers, and just hide behind them to claim any crazy idea they want is a 'founding principle'.

You talk about the founding fathers' views on 'small federal government'. But how much did they appreciate today's society, when they ran a tiny country smaller than our cities today where the biggest house in the country was the size of today's tract home, the White House was the biggest building in America, over 90% of the citizens were on farms, and corporations were tiny groups of people who organized for a specific activity like building something for a limited time, subject to the government saying it was for the public good? In a time without electricity except for one citizen nearly killed by it named Franklin, much less computers and internets and nuclear missiles.

If we're sticking to the literal same federal government, can we stick to the literal same corporations too? Instead of the multi-nationals with revenue more than most countries?

Who pour billions to corrupt our elections and our citizens for their anti-public agendas?

The descendants of the tiny, baby corporations about whom even Thomas Jefferson said:



But your answer is to have an 18th century federal government and a 21st century corporatocracy, where there is no competition in that 'trial of strength' he mentioned.

Funny, I bet the corporations agree with you.

Save234


This.

Some seem to think that the US exists in a vacuum and that what happens outside its' borders is of no consequence. This is a fatal mistake and already the Competitiveness of the US has been negatively impacted by this kind of thinking.
 
That used to be the case. But quite frequently, laws now come down to the states from the feds and the states have no choice but to comply with the federal blackmailers. War on Drugs anyone?

You're actually quite right about the war on drugs and the federal/state interplay on that particular issue. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of laws which affect our daily lives continue to be state statutes and local ordinances. The vast majority of criminal prosecutions are under state law. Most regulations that affect businesses are state regulations. Ordinances for zoning and building are local. The list goes on.

I'm not taking a position here as to whether the federal government should grow or shrink. I just think the facts should be set straight because there appear to be people who think we don't have a division of power between federal and state/local but in fact we very much do.
 
Another thing: times change, right-wingers.

The fact is, the country today is one the founding fathers couldn't recognize. They couldn't have every policy they did that fit our society as perfectly as it did theirs.

As my first witness to prove my point, I call any of the founding fathers. THEY are the ones who recognized this as well, ensuring the constitution could change and grow.

Yes, it's called amending the constitution.

The constitution does not "change" by itself.

It's these fundamentalists who demand that every policy be just the same as it was for 18th century America - and who are not consistent even at that, only when it suits their prejudices - that are the enemies of the founding fathers' intent for how the country should be run.

Actually, blindly partisan idiots like yourself and Spidey07 are the true "enemies" to this country.

So, am I saying the constitution is wrong, outdated? No. In fact, there are some timeless principles the founding fathers caught. Free speech was an issue then when John Adams wanted to put you in jail for criticizing him, as it is today when you want to Twitter that Obama was not born in the US. Illegal search and seizure was an issue then and now. Not having the state establish a religion was relevant then and now. All kinds of things are relevant. But not everything is.

Translation: I want to selectively interpret what the constitution says to fit my agenda.

Let me guess, you don't think the 2nd Amendment is "relevant" anymore?

The fact is, about your magical formula of 'federal' versus 'state' power, it comes from a time when it was a very different situation - when you needed colonies to give up some of their jealously guarded sovereignity that happened to have been created by how England set things up. You had to make compromises to get that to happen. The same people had tried once, more your direction for 'states' rights', and failed with the Articles of Confederation.

The "magical formula" worked for a couple of centuries before people started messing with it and the federal government got bloated.

Don't be ridiculous, even with a bare bones Federal government that sticks rigidly to the Constitution, it has far more power than the government under the Articles of Confederation did.
 
You're actually quite right about the war on drugs and the federal/state interplay on that particular issue. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of laws which affect our daily lives continue to be state statutes and local ordinances. The vast majority of criminal prosecutions are under state law. Most regulations that affect businesses are state regulations. Ordinances for zoning and building are local. The list goes on.

I'm not taking a position here as to whether the federal government should grow or shrink. I just think the facts should be set straight because there appear to be people who think we don't have a division of power between federal and state/local but in fact we very much do.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703749504576172714184601654.html

With the growing number of federal crimes, the number of people sentenced to federal prison has risen nearly threefold over the past 30 years to 83,000 annually. The U.S. population grew only about 36% in that period. The total federal prison population, over 200,000, grew more than eightfold—twice the growth rate of the state prison population, now at 2 million, according the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics
 
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