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Are seatbelt laws neccessary?

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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Why are you slamming on the brakes/veering? Exactly - because of an external risk factor. That "extra" risk factor needs to be present for your situation to happen - and not wearing your seat belt doesn't increase that "extra" risk factor's potential. The potential is always there when a risk is presented. You can argue it lessens risk -but not buckling up does not INCREASE that risk. [ ... ]
Your premise is also flawed. While seatbelts do not generally reduce external risks, they DO reduce the potential consequences of external risks. An unbelted driver is more likely to lose control of his vehicle in an incident caused by those external risks. By losing control of his vehicle, the unbelted drivers creates new risks for others around him. A minor incident can become a major accident if the driver loses control. Therefore, it is in the public interest to require seatbelt usage to reduce the number of cases of drivers losing control.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Ofcourse - Intoxicated driving puts others at risk. Driving sober without a seatbelt doesn't present other drivers on the road greater risk.
[ ... ]
Read the first paragraph of my earlier post. Yes, driving without a seatbelt, sober or not, increases risk to others. Now read the following paragraphs. Can you present a case that the "cost" of requiring seatbelt usage comes anywhere close to outweighing the benefits?

Yes, I read your "societal" stuff. Again, that is because of other "responsibility shifting" - not only because of the seatbelt.
The "cost" here is personal responsibility. Do we really need a law to protect ourselves from everything? Sure, mandating it is provided for use is one thing - but forcing citizens to do so is another. It's the whole personal responsibility vs societal responsibility argument.
There has been alot of discussion on this board about our gov't doing things to "protect" us which has brought out the whole "freedom" issue. If one truly doesn't want to give up freedoms for protection - why would someone support the mandated use of seatbelts? Isn't that a bit intrusive? 😉

Come on Bow - I wasn't born yesterday - I've debated this time and time again so you're going to have to do better than that. Inspite of the fact that I do wear my seatbelt - I don't feel it is the responsibility of the gov't to mandate it's use.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Why are you slamming on the brakes/veering? Exactly - because of an external risk factor. That "extra" risk factor needs to be present for your situation to happen - and not wearing your seat belt doesn't increase that "extra" risk factor's potential. The potential is always there when a risk is presented. You can argue it lessens risk -but not buckling up does not INCREASE that risk. [ ... ]
Your premise is also flawed. While seatbelts do not generally reduce external risks, they DO reduce the potential consequences of external risks. An unbelted driver is more likely to lose control of his vehicle in an incident caused by those external risks. By losing control of his vehicle, the unbelted drivers creates new risks for others around him. A minor incident can become a major accident if the driver loses control. Therefore, it is in the public interest to require seatbelt usage to reduce the number of cases of drivers losing control.

No, the risk potential is always there. That external risk introduced still has the potential to make you lose control and affect others - regardless of seatbelt use. Potential starts at max and can be reduced - however a non-used risk control device does not increase the potential of that external risk.
In other words - the potential that external risk presented has the potential for a major accident. Sure, a seatbelt could potentially reduce the risk of a major accident down to a minor one - but so could one's driving skills. Since you are in Iowa also - you should be familiar with the way our driver's license system works(or atleast used to). IIRC it was a month of the year "lottery" type thing to have to take an actual driving test. I know atleast 4 people who willingly admitted they never took a driving test to get a license because their month didn't get picked. Don't you think that might have just as much, if not more, effect on risk reduction than a seatbelt since it is a constant risk?

CsG
 
Exactly how do you set up personal responsibility? We are not born to know that we should wear our seatbelts because it might save our lives (and society some money). We have to be taught. In order to teach a person effectively you have to have some form of reward and punishment. How do you encourage people to wear their seatbelts if there is no punishment for not doing so? Do you honestly believe that all people would wear their seatbelts if there were no punishments (other than maybe dieing, which most 16 year olds are incapable of believing might happen)?

If you want to take government out of the picture completely, fine. But you cannot tell me there is no cost to the individual and to society if they get killed.
 
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Exactly how do you set up personal responsibility? We are not born to know that we should wear our seatbelts because it might save our lives (and society some money). We have to be taught. In order to teach a person effectively you have to have some form of reward and punishment. How do you encourage people to wear their seatbelts if there is no punishment for not doing so? Do you honestly believe that all people would wear their seatbelts if there were no punishments (other than maybe dieing, which most 16 year olds are incapable of believing might happen)?

If you want to take government out of the picture completely, fine. But you cannot tell me there is no cost to the individual and to society if they get killed.

Sigh... Tis a sad day when we need to rely on the gov't to teach our kids responsibility...

CsG
 
Has the law helped us - both individual and/or societal - or hurt us?

If the benefits outweigh the damages, or visa versa, there's your answer.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Cad brought up an interesting point...

Insurance is mandatory as is seatbelt usage in many states (Ky included). Should the insurance company have to pay if you're fvcked up because you did not wear your seatbelt in an area which it is the law? i.e. you break the law, get fvcked up, and now because of the insurance law, we all have to pay because insurance goes up?

I know...slippery slope.....but had to throw it in.

Could they have more "risk factor" categories? Sure - why not? Have a policy available for those that want a cheaper rate sign a waiver on health payouts stating that it is severely reduced if they are found to not be wearing a seatbelt during a claim. Simple as that. Revoke that cheaper option if they have an accident and aren't wearing their seatbelt.

CsG
 
I am interested, do you have any kids?

Were you EVER a kid?

Did you ever do things that were irresponsible? Because my parents taught me a lot, but I listened to only part of what they were saying. If it was not for governmental controls I would have done a lot more. A great example is speeding. My parents taught me that speeding is not a responsible thing to do. And I knew that if i got caught speeding by the police I would not only lose my license but I would be out some money. That kept me from speeding. Now I understand why speeding is more of a threat to society because I could end up killing someone else, but what if I only ended up hurting my self and my parents were too poor to pay the medical bills? Are you saying it is ok for society to pay for my irresponsible behavior? Are you saying that society should not be involved in curtailing behavior that might be dangerous or costly to society? Why do you think auto insurance for teenagers is higher than auto insurance for a 45 year old, they are a bigger risk and the company wants to make sure they have enough money paid in to pay for the damage when I hit a tree at 50 and die b/c I was not wearing my seatbelt.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Exactly how do you set up personal responsibility? We are not born to know that we should wear our seatbelts because it might save our lives (and society some money). We have to be taught. In order to teach a person effectively you have to have some form of reward and punishment. How do you encourage people to wear their seatbelts if there is no punishment for not doing so? Do you honestly believe that all people would wear their seatbelts if there were no punishments (other than maybe dieing, which most 16 year olds are incapable of believing might happen)?

If you want to take government out of the picture completely, fine. But you cannot tell me there is no cost to the individual and to society if they get killed.

Sigh... Tis a sad day when we need to rely on the gov't to teach our kids responsibility...

CsG
Most laws are the government teaching our kids responsibility. You have the responsibility not to hurt people. You have the responsibility not to steal. You have the responsibility not to burn things down. You have the responsibility not to drive before meeting certain qualifications. You have the responsibility to drive on the right side of the road, to not drive too fast, to stop at red lights, to wear seatbelts, etc.
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Exactly how do you set up personal responsibility? We are not born to know that we should wear our seatbelts because it might save our lives (and society some money). We have to be taught. In order to teach a person effectively you have to have some form of reward and punishment. How do you encourage people to wear their seatbelts if there is no punishment for not doing so? Do you honestly believe that all people would wear their seatbelts if there were no punishments (other than maybe dieing, which most 16 year olds are incapable of believing might happen)?

If you want to take government out of the picture completely, fine. But you cannot tell me there is no cost to the individual and to society if they get killed.

Sigh... Tis a sad day when we need to rely on the gov't to teach our kids responsibility...

CsG
Most laws are the government teaching our kids responsibility. You have the responsibility not to hurt people. You have the responsibility not to steal. You have the responsibility not to burn things down. You have the responsibility not to drive before meeting certain qualifications. You have the responsibility to drive on the right side of the road, to not drive too fast, to stop at red lights, to wear seatbelts, etc.

Yes, and all those things affect other people - except for seatbelt use. Basically those things you listed(save seatbelts) create potential risk situations if not followed.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Has the law helped us - both individual and/or societal - or hurt us?

If the benefits outweigh the damages, or visa versa, there's your answer.

...saved... 😉

CsG

😕

Explain?

This sort of rationalizing is what some here detest. Namely Patriot Act discussions - but other law discussions too.

I didn't elaborate due to it being a tangent. Just saved for future reference.😉

CsG
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Exactly how do you set up personal responsibility? We are not born to know that we should wear our seatbelts because it might save our lives (and society some money). We have to be taught. In order to teach a person effectively you have to have some form of reward and punishment. How do you encourage people to wear their seatbelts if there is no punishment for not doing so? Do you honestly believe that all people would wear their seatbelts if there were no punishments (other than maybe dieing, which most 16 year olds are incapable of believing might happen)?

If you want to take government out of the picture completely, fine. But you cannot tell me there is no cost to the individual and to society if they get killed.

Sigh... Tis a sad day when we need to rely on the gov't to teach our kids responsibility...

CsG
Most laws are the government teaching our kids responsibility. You have the responsibility not to hurt people. You have the responsibility not to steal. You have the responsibility not to burn things down. You have the responsibility not to drive before meeting certain qualifications. You have the responsibility to drive on the right side of the road, to not drive too fast, to stop at red lights, to wear seatbelts, etc.

Yes, and all those things affect other people - except for seatbelt use. Basically those things you listed(save seatbelts) create potential risk situations if not followed.

CsG

What part of society does pay for the costs do you not get? I know you are against the government enforcing the wearing of seatbelts, but are you against the government making car manufactures put seatbelts in cars? Why not just make it an option, and then the insurance companies could either deny providing insurance or make you pay 1000% higher insurance if you don?t buy that option. Also if you have medical insurance make that 1000% higher, and if you do not have health insurance and you do not have a seat belt in your car, the hospital could refuse treatment. Only THEN would it be up to the person to choice if they want to be responsible or not.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Has the law helped us - both individual and/or societal - or hurt us?

If the benefits outweigh the damages, or visa versa, there's your answer.

...saved... 😉

CsG

😕

Explain?

This sort of rationalizing is what some here detest. Namely Patriot Act discussions - but other law discussions too.

I didn't elaborate due to it being a tangent. Just saved for future reference.😉

CsG

Gotta be careful there....the Seatbelt Law is ONE law...where others may be multiply facited laws. Parts may be very beneficial whereas other parts may be quite harmful and also abused.

Oh, and trying to save it on me to throw back at me later doesn't bother me....I still think parts of the Patriot act suck. It was a rush job to get something on the table that wasn't read, much less thought about. It needs to be reworked....not expanded.

 
I would imagine that most local communities are addicted to the revenue generated by seatbelt tickets. They will not go away.
 
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
What part of society does pay for the costs do you not get? I know you are against the government enforcing the wearing of seatbelts, but are you against the government making car manufactures put seatbelts in cars? Why not just make it an option, and then the insurance companies could either deny providing insurance or make you pay 1000% higher insurance if you don?t buy that option. Also if you have medical insurance make that 1000% higher, and if you do not have health insurance and you do not have a seat belt in your car, the hospital could refuse treatment. Only THEN would it be up to the person to choice if they want to be responsible or not.

I am fully aware of the costs irresponsible people are allowed to place on society. The fix for that is a different discussion - a responsibility shifting discussion.
I've already said that I don't have a problem with seatbelts having to be present - but sure wouldn't oppose an option and have Insurance de-rate the vehicle's safety features accordingly.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Has the law helped us - both individual and/or societal - or hurt us?

If the benefits outweigh the damages, or visa versa, there's your answer.

...saved... 😉

CsG

😕

Explain?

This sort of rationalizing is what some here detest. Namely Patriot Act discussions - but other law discussions too.

I didn't elaborate due to it being a tangent. Just saved for future reference.😉

CsG

Gotta be careful there....the Seatbelt Law is ONE law...where others may be multiply facited laws. Parts may be very beneficial whereas other parts may be quite harmful and also abused.

Oh, and trying to save it on me to throw back at me later doesn't bother me....I still think parts of the Patriot act suck. It was a rush job to get something on the table that wasn't read, much less thought about. It needs to be reworked....not expanded.

Sure - the seatbelt law is ONE law but the rationalization is a general concept.
I would tend to agree with you on the P-A, but IMO people are going a tad nuts over it.

CsG
 
You're still putting yourself in danger over a thousand times more than normal. Last I heard it's illegal to hurt yourself. :|
 
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: daveymark
Not wearing a seatbelt doesn't harm anyone else, so why does it need to be a legal issue?

btw, I wear my seatbelt at all times. And I think other people should wear them at all times too. I just don't think it should be up to the law to decide how safe I should make myself.
Your premise is flawed. Wearing seat belts does marginally improve a driver's ability to control his vehicle in an emergency situation, e.g., a collision or even an emergency maneuver. By securing the driver in place, he is less likely to be tossed around the vehicle. Similarly, by belting passengers, they are less likely to interfere with the driver by being tossed around the vehicle. Improving your control of your vehicle reduces risks to other drivers.

An even greater benefit is the societal benefit of reduced medical costs. Health care is subsidized by taxpayers in multiple ways. Reducing your medical costs benefits all taxpayers, at least a little.

Therefore, the more proper analysis is whether the benefits of requiring seatbelts outweigh the "costs". In order to perform that analysis, you must identify those costs and attempt to quantify their value. I would maintain that the cost of wearing seatbelts is virtually nil, while the benefits are great. While one can launch a great ideological debate about freedom of choice, in my opinion it's a smokescreen for people who are just too stubborn or too contrary to change old habits. Buckle up -- you won't even notice it after a couple of weeks, and the life you save may be your own.



If you want to have a more meaningful discussion, let's talk about air bags. While seatbelts deliver tremendous safety benefits at a nominal cost, air bags are relatively expensive and offer only marginal additional benefit to occupants who are properly belted. Why should all drivers have to pay several hundred extra dollars per vehicle just to protect a few idiots who aren't willing to buckle up?

Any thoughts?

I don't like the three point seatbelts we are forced to wear and wish the crumby seatbelt and airbag money had been used to make an acceptable five point harness that would really save lives. Airbags sux because they stop you from controlling the vehicle on impact. Imagine you are on a mountain road and impact on something in a tight curve. With the airbag knocking you out or just being in your face, you die. Without it, you may have the opportunity to control the vehicle and survive along with your family. Been there, done that!

 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Not wearing a belt in a fast moving vehicle is just plain stupid. Anyone not wearing one moving above 25 should be very concerned. fine em whatever but it is not safe.
IMO If I was a cop I'd not fine someone but talk to em about how super important it is to not get flung like a ragdoll out of your car. (unless I caught your ass doing it afer I explained why eveyone who does it for a living knows why you MUST.)
(what if you were still slamming the breaks to keep from swerving into more traffic when impact hit? But yet you went flying? )
Thin kabout what other few times in public you move at a fast rate of speed besides driving?
Go o na carnival ride an you will NOT ride if you dont put the bar down or strap yourself in.
Driving is no diffrent IMO.

A. You repeatedly state that you don't drive!
B. Carnie rides don't use seatbelts, but they use a version of the five point harness, in a socially acceptable, drop down unit.
C. Been in a couple of major accidents without seatbelts and one with. Never been flung like a ragdoll out of my car. The only damage I have ever sustained was from the seatbelt! Was in an end over end tumble at high speed in a Rambler American - no injury, collision with a red clay cliff at high speed in a GTO - no injury, intersection collisions in pick up trucks - 2 - no injury, rear ended a Chevy with a VW bug - no damage, I was rear ended at a stop sign , driven into the car in front of me - wearing seat belt, sustained severe neck, rotator cuff, and lower back injuries from the shoulder belt torqueing my upper torso into the steering wheel and dash! Required surgery for the cuff. The guy in the Jeep that I was rammed into suffered no injury at all. I drive a Jeep these days.
D. The use of belts and airbags have allowed manufactors to cheapen the strength of the auto body and many people actually get killed that wouldn't in a vehicle that had a proper frame and a good body. Notice that the vehicles that I was in accidents in without injury were back in the 60's and 70's before the days of seatbelts, airbags, tin foil bodies and plastic bumpers.

 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Cad brought up an interesting point...

Insurance is mandatory as is seatbelt usage in many states (Ky included). Should the insurance company have to pay if you're fvcked up because you did not wear your seatbelt in an area which it is the law? i.e. you break the law, get fvcked up, and now because of the insurance law, we all have to pay because insurance goes up?

I know...slippery slope.....but had to throw it in.

If you wanna go down this slope, why don't pedestrians have to take a liability and damage policy in the cities where congestion makes everyone at risk? I ask because I had a DS ped actually walk into the side of my car in Arlington, VA. He sustained injuries and Arlington County took me to court 4 times trying to make it my fault so my insurance would pay for his injuries. They failed after the officers actually stood in front of the court and lied under oath! Why wasn't the pedestrian required to be financially responsible? He could have caused a chain reaction accident if there had been any amount of traffic when I stopped to try to save his neck! Think about if I had even tasted a beer enough to have a smell on my breath! I hadn't and didn't, but they would have tried to put me in jail if conditions had been even a little different.

 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Most laws are the government teaching our kids responsibility. You have the responsibility not to hurt people. You have the responsibility not to steal. You have the responsibility not to burn things down. You have the responsibility not to drive before meeting certain qualifications. You have the responsibility to drive on the right side of the road, to not drive too fast, to stop at red lights, to wear seatbelts, etc.
Yes, and all those things affect other people - except for seatbelt use. Basically those things you listed(save seatbelts) create potential risk situations if not followed.

CsG
No. We have already established that using seatbelts does affect other people, by reducing risks and by reducing medical costs.

You also have yet to address how the cost of requiring seatbelt use exceeds its benefits.
 
Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
Can't pay taxes dead, can you?

Just because you died doesn't mean you paid taxes. Lots of people take money from the system and never pay a dime in.

 
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