Are public sector unions the problem with state budgets??

[IBMer]

The word union keeps getting used over and over to dehumanize these people. They are also tax paying citizens of that state.

 

[sao123]

Really? Simple math says the less tax money going to unions, the less expenses the state pays out, and the less money must be collected from tax-paying citizens.

Your graph doesn't say anything anyways, other than states run at about a 20% deficit. How about union membership versus tax rate? Versus GDP? Versus total government spending?

Really? Simple math says you dont know WTf you are saying...

There are some union workers who are overpaid, there are some who are underpaid. It balances out. Do you really believe that dropping the salary of a few clerical workers, janitors, and deisel mechanics going from 24 -> 20K per year, is going to equate out to the raise you are going to have to give to network & civil engineers working for 45K -> 60K per year?

collective bargaining smoothes out the highs and lows of employment to keep pay stable over the course of time.



also... i would like to point out the following problem in your reasoning...
you guys complaining about unions and labor costs, is the equivolent of being worried about a cup of water in the entire ocean.

Lets examine my state for example...pennsylvania.
PA has an annual 35 billion dollar budget expenditure.
Of that 35 billion dollars, only 3.3 of it goes to labor of all 87,000 state employees. Thats less than 10% of the entire budget.

if you want to make something, why not cut from the $11 billion which funds handout programs, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, WIC...
Also, of the $10 billion which goes to education... cut the 1 billion in universities handouts. theres lots more that can be found to cut.

 

[yllus]

CATO has a graph for the percentage of the public workforce that belongs to a union versus state/local government debt levels as a share of state gross domestic product. I'm not a statistician and I'm sure there's many ways to read this, but here it is:

The chart below shows a scatter plot of the union shares in state/local government workforces and state/local government debt levels as a share of state gross domestic product. Each blue dot is a U.S. state.

The variables are correlated -- as the union share increases, a state tends to have a higher government debt load. The chart shows the fitted regression line in pink dots (R-square=0.27; F-stat=18; t-stat on the union share variable=4.2).

The correlation is likely caused by the fact that unionized government workers are powerful lobby groups that push for higher government-worker compensation and higher government spending in general.

 

[IBMer]

CATO has a graph for the percentage of the public workforce that belongs to a union versus state/local government debt levels as a share of state gross domestic product. I'm not a statistician and I'm sure there's many ways to read this, but here it is:

I once got drunk before taking a test, and I got an A on that test. Therefore if I get drunk for every test I'll get an A on that test.

Thats as much validity as that graph has.

 

[yllus]

I once got drunk before taking a test, and I got an A on that test. Therefore if I get drunk for every test I'll get an A on that test.

Thats as much validity as that graph has.

There are 50 data points on that graph. Did you take 50 tests at slowly increasing levels of drunkenness and find that your performance improved as you went?

 

[IBMer]

There are 50 data points on that graph. Did you take 50 tests at slowly increasing levels of drunkenness and find that your performance improved as you went?

Its still only correlating two stats, union share and debt. Just because they are related doesn't mean that one is the cause of the other.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Yes. Get rid of the unions and fiscal problems will be solved. There isn't a country in the world that allows unions and isn't struggling. Coincidence? Only in the mind of a libtard. You never here about Chinese, Mexican or Indian Unions striking and look where all the jobs are going.

Ah yes, we should all aspire to the glorious heights of Chinese, Mexican and Indian non union sweat shop factory workers. Only in the mind of a neocon free market douchenozzle is this a valid argument. Yes all our problems will be solved as soon as we turn American into a third world shithole where people work a week for the price of a gallon of gas and a loaf of bread:thumbsdown:

 

[her209]

There are 50 data points on that graph. Did you take 50 tests at slowly increasing levels of drunkenness and find that your performance improved as you went?

All 50 states are in debt.

 

[her209]

Ah yes, we should all aspire to the glorious heights of Chinese, Mexican and Indian non union sweat shop factory workers. Only in the mind of a neocon free market douchenozzle is this a valid argument. Yes all our problems will be solved as soon as we turn American into a third world shithole where people work a week for the price of a gallon of gas and a loaf of bread:thumbsdown:

I doubt you'd find him volunteering to work for pennies on the hour.

 

[ProfJohn]

Lets examine my state for example...pennsylvania.
PA has an annual 35 billion dollar budget expenditure.
Of that 35 billion dollars, only 3.3 of it goes to labor of all 87,000 state employees. Thats less than 10% of the entire budget.

if you want to make something, why not cut from the $11 billion which funds handout programs, welfare, unemployment, food stamps, WIC...
Also, of the $10 billion which goes to education... cut the 1 billion in universities handouts. theres lots more that can be found to cut.

How much of that $10 billion to education goes towards salaries??

The 10% figure is false in that it excludes things like salaries paid out indirectly.

 

[her209]

How much of that $10 billion to education goes towards salaries??

The 10% figure is false in that it excludes things like salaries paid out indirectly.

All money goes towards paying someone's salary indirectly.

 

[DesiPower]

Ah yes, we should all aspire to the glorious heights of Chinese, Mexican and Indian non union sweat shop factory workers. Only in the mind of a neocon free market douchenozzle is this a valid argument. Yes all our problems will be solved as soon as we turn American into a third world shithole where people work a week for the price of a gallon of gas and a loaf of bread:thumbsdown:

We are already moving towards it with unstoppable momentum by shipping our jobs overseas like there's no tomorrow. By allowing a small portion of the society let them keep their jobs and dictate their salaries while the rest of the people loose their jobs, see their hours reduce and pays cut, we are giving them an unjust advantage.
Moreover, our education system has significantly deteriorated and everything is to blame for it, including teachers union. We should be allowed to fire them left and right just like I would loose my job if i constantly under perform OR I would have never got this job unless I had an IQ of 100+. No one should get paid for their country of origin or color of their skin.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Almost every public school district is unionized where I have been.

The real issue at hand is unfunded pensions.
On the other hand O'Bammah Care is probably bankrupting some school districts with raising costs of health care. Maybe when O'Bammah Care kicks in, the school districts will just opt out of health insurance. That should be fun!

Racial slurs make you look so cool! I bet you were smokin fags and wearing wife beaters by the age of 12

 

[yllus]

Its still only correlating two stats, union share and debt. Just because they are related doesn't mean that one is the cause of the other.

Which make it just as useful or useless as the graph and article contained in the original post. And your analogy to drunkenness is still inaccurate.

 

[sao123]

How much of that $10 billion to education goes towards salaries??

The 10% figure is false in that it excludes things like salaries paid out indirectly.

Of the $10 billion going to K-12 teachers salaries, none... why? Because in PA, local taxes pay school teachers salaries, not state taxes.


The 10% is direct commonwealth employees... PA has no indirect salaries.
Again...teachers are not paid with state taxes.

 

[BoT]

who is paying for the unions .. primarily? members, so who is it that they are such a burden on the states budget.

news flash: universal health care or o'bammah care has already been voted out. so no need to worry that even people who can not afford will be able to receive healthcare. i think we should throw out healthcare altogether and just leave it up to natural selection.

the retirement budgets are also not the problem, the problems are decades of politicians believe that they have the god given right to even touch that money and spend it.
people paid for there retirement and somebody stole that money.

if teachers would have a union they would have to put up with even more ish from kids whos parents have no interest in raising them and want to take even less accountability for it. besides they probably would only get paid 25k instead of the meager 45k they make now and probably not get paid at all for the time they are not in school. maybe find a summer job or something?

 

[rudder]

All 50 states are in debt.

Tennessee has a balanced budget and actually has a spare $1b that is used as a rainy day fund. We do have an underfunded pension liability issue that will crop up in the future like most states. We just got through 8 years of a democratic governor increasing the state's budget at twice the rate of inflation. So with reduced revenue streams the last couple of years the state is hurting. We are still better off than most states.

 

[zsdersw]

Union membership is not the problem with state budgets, it's one of the problems. There are bigger problems, but you can't tackle everything at the same time, this is a good opportunity to take on the unions and solve one of the problems. There is absolutely no reason why union government employees should fare better than those who pay their salary in this current economy.

All fine and dandy, except he's not taking on the public-sector unions. He's taking on only some of them.

Since part of his budget is almost certainly going to include cuts to shared revenue distributed to cities and municipalities, his refusal to include police/firefighter/state patrol unions in this proposal will deny cities/municipalities cost-saving measures when dealing with police/firefighter unions. Salary/benefit costs for police/fire departments make up almost two-thirds of the salary/benefit budgets of most cities/municipalities in WI.

Walker trots out the "public safety" argument for not including police/firefighter unions, apparently unaware that police and firefighters cannot strike in WI and that cutting funding for cities while leaving collective-bargaining in place for their most expensive employees will result in police/fire layoffs, that *will* impact public safety, particularly in areas like Milwaukee, Madison, and Green Bay/Fox Valley.

Walker is no more interested in saving WI money than Doyle (his predecessor) was.

 

[HumblePie]

Yes. Get rid of the unions and fiscal problems will be solved. There isn't a country in the world that allows unions and isn't struggling. Coincidence? Only in the mind of a libtard. You never here about Chinese, Mexican or Indian Unions striking and look where all the jobs are going.

Incorrect. This is an outright falsehood and myth.

Germany is completely unionized and one of the richest countries in the world. Same with the Sweds and Swiss as more examples.

I'm not fan of some unions, but I do not see unions being the problem specifically. The ACTIONS of unions can most certainly be the problem.

The correlation is not easy to find because the OP is looking at the wrong factors.

There are plenty of ways to make unions work as well as the opposite. The problems stem from other issues. Those issues can be from unions or not.

 

[her209]

Tennessee has a balanced budget and actually has a spare $1b that is used as a rainy day fund. We do have an underfunded pension liability issue that will crop up in the future like most states. We just got through 8 years of a democratic governor increasing the state's budget at twice the rate of inflation. So with reduced revenue streams the last couple of years the state is hurting. We are still better off than most states.

Not according to the CATO graph. If states were in the black, we'd see data points on the negative % side, i.e., below the x-axis.

 

[dquan97]

Unions aren't the problem, but the answer to corporations wishing to pay China-level wages in the US.

 

[HumblePie]

Unions aren't the problem, but the answer to corporations wishing to pay China-level wages in the US.

LOL!!!! How naive of you. They are definitely NOT the answer. The actions of some unions are what forced many an employer to seek employees elsewhere. How? Well let me give you a hypothetical scenario.


Scenario:
Union workers decide they want more than what is reasonable by the employer of the union employees for that year. They threaten to strike if their demands are not met. The employer is left with the following choices. A) give in to the demands. B) not give into the demands.

If the employer goes with choice B, there is a real possibility that the union members all go on strike which may leave the employer without any workers. At which point the employer has more choices to make. A) give back in to the demands to get union members back to work or B) find replacements for the union members not working. When the employer finds local non union members to work this is called hiring scabs.

However, the employer may do what many are doing and say "fuck it" if the company is big enough. Just hire out oversea workers that can get the job done for less than union workers would ever do without having to meet demands. Now the employer is happy and the union members who were way to naive to see that as a possible solution to their strike are screwed.

Collective bargaining works when you can hold most or all the chips on one side of the bargaining table. If you can't then you are doomed to fail.

 

[BoT]

yes, unions are the reason why jobs are going offshore!? seriously?

who determines what is reasonable? do you think any employer is interested in your fair treatment over them satisfying the shareholders.

they would like you to do 2-3 times the work for half the money. if they could have their way, they would. leave it or love it

 

[HumblePie]

yes, unions are the reason why jobs are going offshore!? seriously?

who determines what is reasonable? do you think any employer is interested in your fair treatment over them satisfying the shareholders.

they would like you to do 2-3 times the work for half the money. if they could have their way, they would. leave it or love it

No, I did not state unions are the reason that jobs are being offshored, but they are certainly in some areas a reason among MANY other reasons. If you fail to see it as being another straw on the stack that is your problem.

 

[BoT]

union then should one of the last straws necessary to be pulled out of that stack, corporate greed amongst others should be on the top of the list.