Are plasmas on the way out?

[potato28]

Not for a long time, I'd have one right now if it wasn't size constraints in my current abide that restrict me from having a nice large plasma TV.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: kalrith

LCD motion issues are solved with 120hz. Not to mention Plasma has similar motion lagging issues (though not as bad as 8ms LCD) and on top of that phosphor lag, etc. Check out the lag on the coveted 5080:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/bbzzdd/5080-motionlag.jpg

The problem is LCD is evolving so quickly you get people comparing plasma to an even one-year-old LCD and claiming plasma is 100x better. It's BS. Put a 71 series Sammy against the current Panny, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to pick a winner. The 8G Pios are another class, and yeah they got LCD beat, but for the price I would hope so.

You've mentioned a very important aspect to any purchase--price. I can (and will) get the Pioneer 5080 from the avsforum sponsors or Amazon.com for $2,600 shipped. If I wanted to spend less, I can get the Panasonic 50PX75U for $1,454 shipped from frys.com. Show me a 52" or even 46-47" LCD at either of those prices with equivalent picture quality! For comparison, the cheapest price I could find on the 52XBR4 was $3,800 shipped, and I think it's safe to say that the Pioneer bests it in picture quality.

Why are you spending an extra $600 on the 5080? From both of those sites (RomanInvasion on AVS, or Amazon.com) both come in at $2000 shipped (maybe just over like $2060 but close enough).

For $2k you can get a 50 inch Kuro 5080, or for $2300 a Sammy 4671, or $2600 XBR4/5. To me the Kuro wins out in the price category, PQ category, and size category. Sure its not 1080p, but I would take the other 3 over 1080p anyday.

 

[Genx87]

Hey I still like my trusty DLP

Anyways I was at BB yesterday looking at a 46" LG Plasma for ~1000. Anybody have an opinion on LG as a brand? I thought it looked fine but I am also not the most tuned in AVphile either.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: kalrith

LCD motion issues are solved with 120hz. Not to mention Plasma has similar motion lagging issues (though not as bad as 8ms LCD) and on top of that phosphor lag, etc. Check out the lag on the coveted 5080:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/bbzzdd/5080-motionlag.jpg

The problem is LCD is evolving so quickly you get people comparing plasma to an even one-year-old LCD and claiming plasma is 100x better. It's BS. Put a 71 series Sammy against the current Panny, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to pick a winner. The 8G Pios are another class, and yeah they got LCD beat, but for the price I would hope so.

You've mentioned a very important aspect to any purchase--price. I can (and will) get the Pioneer 5080 from the avsforum sponsors or Amazon.com for $2,600 shipped. If I wanted to spend less, I can get the Panasonic 50PX75U for $1,454 shipped from frys.com. Show me a 52" or even 46-47" LCD at either of those prices with equivalent picture quality! For comparison, the cheapest price I could find on the 52XBR4 was $3,800 shipped, and I think it's safe to say that the Pioneer bests it in picture quality.

Why are you spending an extra $600 on the 5080? From both of those sites (RomanInvasion on AVS, or Amazon.com) both come in at $2000 shipped (maybe just over like $2060 but close enough).

For $2k you can get a 50 inch Kuro 5080, or for $2300 a Sammy 4671, or $2600 XBR4/5. To me the Kuro wins out in the price category, PQ category, and size category. Sure its not 1080p, but I would take the other 3 over 1080p anyday.

Dude, take a look at the date he posted, it was in August of last year.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: kalrith

LCD motion issues are solved with 120hz. Not to mention Plasma has similar motion lagging issues (though not as bad as 8ms LCD) and on top of that phosphor lag, etc. Check out the lag on the coveted 5080:

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/bbzzdd/5080-motionlag.jpg

The problem is LCD is evolving so quickly you get people comparing plasma to an even one-year-old LCD and claiming plasma is 100x better. It's BS. Put a 71 series Sammy against the current Panny, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to pick a winner. The 8G Pios are another class, and yeah they got LCD beat, but for the price I would hope so.

You've mentioned a very important aspect to any purchase--price. I can (and will) get the Pioneer 5080 from the avsforum sponsors or Amazon.com for $2,600 shipped. If I wanted to spend less, I can get the Panasonic 50PX75U for $1,454 shipped from frys.com. Show me a 52" or even 46-47" LCD at either of those prices with equivalent picture quality! For comparison, the cheapest price I could find on the 52XBR4 was $3,800 shipped, and I think it's safe to say that the Pioneer bests it in picture quality.

Why are you spending an extra $600 on the 5080? From both of those sites (RomanInvasion on AVS, or Amazon.com) both come in at $2000 shipped (maybe just over like $2060 but close enough).

For $2k you can get a 50 inch Kuro 5080, or for $2300 a Sammy 4671, or $2600 XBR4/5. To me the Kuro wins out in the price category, PQ category, and size category. Sure its not 1080p, but I would take the other 3 over 1080p anyday.

Dude, take a look at the date he posted, it was in August of last year.

Oh, opps....

Stupid resurrected topics

 

[TheAdvocate]

Went to look at the new Kuro at my local custom home theater shop (the big $$$ install/"pro" shop)... Wanted to see it in a proper setting, actually tuned and setup correctly (no worst buy, thanks).

Stood there (with a couple of guys having systems installed for the SB) for a half hour watching the loop, then had them turn on some live broadcast stuff (cable 720p/1080i).

I was very impressed with the black level detail, until I saw the new Regza beside it. Better colors, strong blacks... and it's a budget set.

Sorry, I just dont get all the fuss. There's no doubt that the Kuro is a nice set, but for twice the price? No thanks.

The fanboys on this forum who spend days trying to convince themselves and others that there is a meaningful difference in any of this crap are doing a real disservice to casual buyers, and making themselves look like parriting dorks too.

Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sharp, Toshiba and a couple of more manufacturers all make very good quality products that will be more than adequate for even the so-called snobs around here. By all means, if you really believe there is a meaningful difference, then vote with your wallet. For most people, just find something you like that won't break your piggy bank, and leave all the finger wagging idiots behind.

 

[Oyeve]

I still prefer a CRT HDTV. Still the best picture overall. Too bad they are a deadend for consumers. I still havent gone HD. But my friends who do have HD have CRT HDTVs. If they only made CRTs lighter I would be all over it but will most likely get LCD sometime later in the year.

 

[Nutdotnet]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
Went to look at the new Kuro at my local custom home theater shop (the big $$$ install/"pro" shop)... Wanted to see it in a proper setting, actually tuned and setup correctly (no worst buy, thanks).

Stood there (with a couple of guys having systems installed for the SB) for a half hour watching the loop, then had them turn on some live broadcast stuff (cable 720p/1080i).

I was very impressed with the black level detail, until I saw the new Regza beside it. Better colors, strong blacks... and it's a budget set.

Sorry, I just dont get all the fuss. There's no doubt that the Kuro is a nice set, but for twice the price? No thanks.

The fanboys on this forum who spend days trying to convince themselves and others that there is a meaningful difference in any of this crap are doing a real disservice to casual buyers, and making themselves look like parriting dorks too.

Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sharp, Toshiba and a couple of more manufacturers all make very good quality products that will be more than adequate for even the so-called snobs around here. By all means, if you really believe there is a meaningful difference, then vote with your wallet. For most people, just find something you like that won't break your piggy bank, and leave all the finger wagging idiots behind.

Wow...your post is confusing.

Oh and how do you know that both sets were proprerly calibrated? How do you know that one was calibrated correctly and one wasn't?

Oh...and this is the first time I've heard of the Regza line being "budget".

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
Went to look at the new Kuro at my local custom home theater shop (the big $$$ install/"pro" shop)... Wanted to see it in a proper setting, actually tuned and setup correctly (no worst buy, thanks).

Stood there (with a couple of guys having systems installed for the SB) for a half hour watching the loop, then had them turn on some live broadcast stuff (cable 720p/1080i).

I was very impressed with the black level detail, until I saw the new Regza beside it. Better colors, strong blacks... and it's a budget set.

Sorry, I just dont get all the fuss. There's no doubt that the Kuro is a nice set, but for twice the price? No thanks.

The fanboys on this forum who spend days trying to convince themselves and others that there is a meaningful difference in any of this crap are doing a real disservice to casual buyers, and making themselves look like parriting dorks too.

Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasonic, Sharp, Toshiba and a couple of more manufacturers all make very good quality products that will be more than adequate for even the so-called snobs around here. By all means, if you really believe there is a meaningful difference, then vote with your wallet. For most people, just find something you like that won't break your piggy bank, and leave all the finger wagging idiots behind.

Some people are more picky about quality than others. For the people that aren't, a Vizio should do the trick.

And it's not how deep of black a set can produce, it is also deep blacks without losing detail. Kuros are the king, there is no denying that. But ignorance is bliss. For instance, I have a friend that didn't know what anti-aliasing was. He was perfectly content with what he saw...until I showed him what it SHOULD look like (AA on). The jaggies he never saw before, now bother the crap out of him. Same with a good HDTV. Most will be satisfied with a set from Wal-Mart. But the people that demand as close to perfection as they can possibly get with todays tech, nothing but a Kuro will do. You think the Regza looks as good? Try playing something with fast action. Even with 120Hz (not true 120Hz mind you) it still can't compare with plasma's smoothness. In all fairness, Sony, Samsung, and Toshiba make GREAT sets and MOST people will be happy with them. Most people won't even notice the motion issues. But for the picky people, nothing but a Kuro will do.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
But the people that demand as close to perfection as they can possibly get with todays tech, nothing but a Kuro will do. You think the Regza looks as good? Try playing something with fast action. Even with 120Hz (not true 120Hz mind) it still can't compare with plasma's smoothness. In all fairness, Sony, Samsung, and Toshiba make GREAT sets and MOST people will be happy with them. Most people won't even notice the motion issues. But for the picky people, nothing but a Kuro will do.

Still, the $2000 Kuro can't match the blacks, motion handling, or contrast of my $300 Sony Trinitron SD CRT. Kind of hard for most to go from a CRT to flat-panel where for most features sans size and resolution, you're downgrading.

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
But the people that demand as close to perfection as they can possibly get with todays tech, nothing but a Kuro will do. You think the Regza looks as good? Try playing something with fast action. Even with 120Hz (not true 120Hz mind) it still can't compare with plasma's smoothness. In all fairness, Sony, Samsung, and Toshiba make GREAT sets and MOST people will be happy with them. Most people won't even notice the motion issues. But for the picky people, nothing but a Kuro will do.

Still, the $2000 Kuro can't match the blacks, motion handling, or contrast of my $300 Sony Trinitron SD CRT. Kind of hard for most to go from a CRT to flat-panel where for most features sans size and resolution, you're downgrading.

I thought we were talking LCD vs Plasma, why do you keep dragging your old ass 480i SD CRT into this discussion?

If you are happy with your purchase why do you feel the need to create a self validation thread like this trashing on plasma? Why not just title it "I love my new Samsung LCD" instead of inviting the flames? Sounds to me like you are stuck with an LCD and wish you could join us cool kids on the plasma bus.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
But the people that demand as close to perfection as they can possibly get with todays tech, nothing but a Kuro will do. You think the Regza looks as good? Try playing something with fast action. Even with 120Hz (not true 120Hz mind) it still can't compare with plasma's smoothness. In all fairness, Sony, Samsung, and Toshiba make GREAT sets and MOST people will be happy with them. Most people won't even notice the motion issues. But for the picky people, nothing but a Kuro will do.

Still, the $2000 Kuro can't match the blacks, motion handling, or contrast of my $300 Sony Trinitron SD CRT. Kind of hard for most to go from a CRT to flat-panel where for most features sans size and resolution, you're downgrading.

Apples and oranges. When you can produce a 50" or 60" Sony CRT, then we can talk apples to apples. Until then, you're definitely upgrading when going to even a 5080 Kuro. And if you REALLY want to forget about your old CRT, Pioneer's 150FD is nothing short of spectacular. You wouldn't be able to kick your CRT out of your house fast enough.

FYI, I have a Sony Trinitron CRT, and the Kuro is right up there with it for motion, blacks and overall contrast.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
But the people that demand as close to perfection as they can possibly get with todays tech, nothing but a Kuro will do. You think the Regza looks as good? Try playing something with fast action. Even with 120Hz (not true 120Hz mind) it still can't compare with plasma's smoothness. In all fairness, Sony, Samsung, and Toshiba make GREAT sets and MOST people will be happy with them. Most people won't even notice the motion issues. But for the picky people, nothing but a Kuro will do.

Still, the $2000 Kuro can't match the blacks, motion handling, or contrast of my $300 Sony Trinitron SD CRT. Kind of hard for most to go from a CRT to flat-panel where for most features sans size and resolution, you're downgrading.

I thought we were talking LCD vs Plasma, why do you keep dragging your old ass 480i SD CRT into this discussion?

If you are happy with your purchase why do you feel the need to create a self validation thread like this trashing on plasma? Why not just title it "I love my new Samsung LCD" instead of inviting the flames? Sounds to me like you are stuck with an LCD and wish you could join us cool kids on the plasma bus.

Ooooooo, I didn't see where he bought a Samsung LCD. Well, Samsungs are among the best LCDs.

It's no Kuro though.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Ooooooo, I didn't see where he bought a Samsung LCD. Well, Samsungs are among the best LCDs.

It's no Kuro though.

Same boat when compared to CRT, IMO. CRT is just dramatically better than flat-panel ATM. My Best Buy has the 60" 1080p Elite Kuro on display. Not even close to CRT (very nice for flat-panel though) other than resolution and retails for over $6k.

5010FD vs "next-gen" Pioneer

As for my LCD purchase, I could have purchased any TV I wanted, and if I had regrets I can sell it on craigslist in a heartbeat and buy anything else. If not for HD gaming I'd just go back to my Trinitron until flat-panel catches up. There's various reasons I won't buy plasma.

 

[JRW]

I didnt think I'd be able to say this anytime soon but: I recently purchased a Kuro 5080HD and it actually makes my Sony 34XBR960 CRT look dull and lifeless in comparison (had them side by side) Top that off excellent black levels even when the lights are off and its nothing short of breathtaking, These Kuro's are the real deal.. Kudos to Pioneer :thumbsup:

My camera goofed up the colors but here's a pic: Link

 

[JRW]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Ooooooo, I didn't see where he bought a Samsung LCD. Well, Samsungs are among the best LCDs.

It's no Kuro though.

Same boat when compared to CRT, IMO. CRT is just dramatically better than flat-panel ATM. My Best Buy has the 60" 1080p Elite Kuro on display. Not even close to CRT (very nice for flat-panel though) other than resolution and retails for over $6k.

5010FD vs "next-gen" Pioneer

Trust me ive always been a diehard CRT fan and the Kuro's will change your mind especially once you have one in your home and setup to your liking (they have TONS of picture adjustments, even Gamma) , I have PS3 / 360 / Wii and ive never seen videogames look this good.

The 5010 vs. next gen comparison shot is flawed as pointed out by AVS website, The digital camera was adjusted to exagerate any light output which is why the 5010's black level looks so bright, in person my 5080 looks a lot closer to the next gen tv on the right.

The one thing that shot does prove is the next gen Kuro on the right is displaying a true pitch black without any hint of light output.

An interesting thing I noticed when comparing my XBR960 CRT and 5080 side by side ..In a dark room I can adjust my CRT to show slightly deeper blacks but it ends up crushing shadow details vs. the plasma, In order to get the CRT showing the same details i have to bump up the brightness a bit.. So in reality the Calibrated black levels are extremely close between the two which is very impressive IMO, Ive never seen an LCD even remotely come close to this especially in a dark room.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Ooooooo, I didn't see where he bought a Samsung LCD. Well, Samsungs are among the best LCDs.

It's no Kuro though.

Same boat when compared to CRT, IMO. CRT is just dramatically better than flat-panel ATM. My Best Buy has the 60" 1080p Elite Kuro on display. Not even close to CRT (very nice for flat-panel though) other than resolution and retails for over $6k.

5010FD vs "next-gen" Pioneer

That is Pioneer's ECC (extreme contrast concept) while an AWESOME tech demo and an exciting look into the not so distance future of plasma, that shot is an exaggeration. The ECC is just about pitch black (I really don't think you could get any deeper black, and if you could, it would be VERY minimal), but when they took that shot, they look like they had that shutter open a looong time to allow quite a bit of light in. The Kuro (5010) is nowhere near that gray. And if you think the Kuro is not a true black, slap a Samsung 71 (or 81) series LCD right beside that Kuro and Kuro ECC, and it would be a glowing mess.

As for my LCD purchase, I could have purchased any TV I wanted, and if I had regrets I can sell it on craigslist in a heartbeat and buy anything else. If not for HD gaming I'd just go back to my Trinitron until flat-panel catches up. There's various reasons I won't buy plasma.

Listen man, whatever makes you happy. If you're happy with the Samsung, great. It's your money. If you bought a Vizio, great. Again, it's your money. But there is no denying the Kuro is king of HDTVs now. Is it perfect? No. Does it produce the best PQ of any HDTV out currently? Hell yeah! No ifs, ands, or buts. And you've got to be kidding me with the CRT talk. Again, I have a bad ass Sony CRT, and I'd give it up in a heart beat for a 150FD. There is just no comparison. My MAIN concern is PQ. THAT is why I choose the Kuro. If that means being a little more careful with my viewing habits than with an LCD, so be it. I'd rather do that than have to look at a picture that wasn't up to my standards. The motion issues with ALL HDTV LCDs is just something I can't tolerate. If you don't see it or if you can tolerate it, great, knock yourself out. But for me, paying $3500 for something I'm not 100% happy with, is like me wasting $3500. I'd rather just pay $4500-5500 (110FD-150FD) and be completely happy.

 

[Lurknomore]

Originally posted by: JRW
I didnt think I'd be able to say this anytime soon but: I recently purchased a Kuro 5080HD and it actually makes my Sony 34XBR960 CRT look dull and lifeless in comparison (had them side by side) Top that off excellent black levels even when the lights are off and its nothing short of breathtaking, These Kuro's are the real deal.. Kudos to Pioneer :thumbsup:

My camera goofed up the colors but here's a pic: Link

Hey, I think I've seen ur pic on AVS, comparing the Kuro and SFP Sony!
Nice pics, but I still think the blacks look better on my 34XS955 vs any Kuro I've seen in BB or PC Richards store. But then again, the Kuros I've seen have never been properly calibrated or have been given a really jawdropping feed.
It sucks- they should play the Planet Earth BR over and over on a Kuro Elite, properly calibrated, in pure mode and my Sony would be in a dumpster the next day!

 

[DBL]

I'm not sure how this whole love for CRT technology got started but it's comical at this point.

Forget about the Kuro, and realize that a properly calibrated quality Plasma blows away a CRT in just about every category. Besides with respect to black levels, the majority of CRT's were nothing special. For instance, I had a 36" SD Vega and it's blacks were not as good as my 50" 700u Panasonic. Factor in the plasmas larger size, greater resolution (even compared with a 34" CRT HDTV), impeccable geometry, greater viewing angles, greater color gamut, better shadow detail and you can begin to understand why the love of CRT's is a bit comical.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: DBL
I'm not sure how this whole love for CRT technology got started but it's comical at this point.

Forget about the Kuro, and realize that a properly calibrated quality Plasma blows away a CRT in just about every category. Besides with respect to black levels, the majority of CRT's were nothing special. For instance, I had a 36" SD Vega and it's blacks were not as good as my 50" 700u Panasonic. Factor in the plasmas larger size, greater resolution (even compared with a 34" CRT HDTV), impeccable geometry, greater viewing angles, greater color gamut, better shadow detail and you can begin to understand why the love of CRT's is a bit comical.

You had me up to geometry but viewing angles? That's a wash. Color gamut and shadow detail better on plasma? No way.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: DBL
I'm not sure how this whole love for CRT technology got started but it's comical at this point.

Forget about the Kuro, and realize that a properly calibrated quality Plasma blows away a CRT in just about every category. Besides with respect to black levels, the majority of CRT's were nothing special. For instance, I had a 36" SD Vega and it's blacks were not as good as my 50" 700u Panasonic. Factor in the plasmas larger size, greater resolution (even compared with a 34" CRT HDTV), impeccable geometry, greater viewing angles, greater color gamut, better shadow detail and you can begin to understand why the love of CRT's is a bit comical.

You had me up to geometry but viewing angles? That's a wash. Color gamut and shadow detail better on plasma? No way.

Ok, I should have said equal wrt to color gamut and shadow detail. However just as plasmas vary in quality so too did CRT and most pople are not upgrading from a top of the line CRT. Pick up a quality Plasma and I don't see how any reasonable person would miss their old CRT.

 

[JRW]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: DBL
I'm not sure how this whole love for CRT technology got started but it's comical at this point.

Forget about the Kuro, and realize that a properly calibrated quality Plasma blows away a CRT in just about every category. Besides with respect to black levels, the majority of CRT's were nothing special. For instance, I had a 36" SD Vega and it's blacks were not as good as my 50" 700u Panasonic. Factor in the plasmas larger size, greater resolution (even compared with a 34" CRT HDTV), impeccable geometry, greater viewing angles, greater color gamut, better shadow detail and you can begin to understand why the love of CRT's is a bit comical.

You had me up to geometry but viewing angles? That's a wash. Color gamut and shadow detail better on plasma? No way.

Viewing angles on plasma's are extremely good, Far better than LCDs, and as I noted in an above post my Kuro's shadow details are just as good vs. my Sony XBR960 CRT HDTV, I actually had to increase the brightness on my CRT to match the Plasma's shadow details.

EDIT: I just realised he was reffering to plasma having better viewing angles than CRT..which of course isnt true but Plasma's viewing angle is not an issue at all ,you have to be viewing it from way off to the side to notice any changes.

Also if a 700U's black levels are better than a Wega CRT then someything was wrong with the CRT or it wasnt adjusted properly.

 

[alkemyst]

current lcds and plasmas will be on the way out soon. Doesn't mean they still don't display as good a picture as they did when purchased.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: JRW
Viewing angles on plasma's are extremely good, Far better than LCDs, and as I noted in an above post my Kuro's shadow details are just as good vs. my Sony XBR960 CRT HDTV, I actually had to increase the brightness on my CRT to match the Plasma's shadow details.

EDIT: I just realised he was reffering to plasma having better viewing angles than CRT..which of course isnt true but Plasma's viewing angle is not an issue at all ,you have to be viewing it from way off to the side to notice any changes.

Also if a 700U's black levels are better than a Wega CRT then someything was wrong with the CRT or it wasnt adjusted properly.

No, it's just that the levels were not as good as people make them out to be. There was always a noticeable glow on the Sony when displaying a blank screen which is was more apparent then the 700u.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: DBL
Ok, I should have said equal wrt to color gamut and shadow detail. However just as plasmas vary in quality so too did CRT and most pople are not upgrading from a top of the line CRT. Pick up a quality Plasma and I don't see how any reasonable person would miss their old CRT.

I'm going to disagree with you on the color gamut and shadow detail angle. I've spent time with both CRT and (calibrated) Kuro recently and the Kuros color gamut is much more muted than CRT. Kuro is undoubtedly the best flat-panel technology available, but there's a lot of room for improvement.