from what i've been told. it already costs less to build a 42" lcd panel than a 42" plasma one. not to mention you get the benefit of square instead of typicallly rectangular plasma pixels so you can use it as a monitor at the correct aspect ratio.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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My brother just replaced a 50" 1080i Plasma with a 47" Toshiba 1080p LCD (47LZ196) ..
The LCD has :
lighter weight (a LOT lighter!)
better picture in every respect, even to his old Plasma in dark scenes!
thinner
A few years ago, Plasma was the de facto standard for home theatre and large TV flat technology, but LCD is progressing too fast for Plasma to keep up either on cost or on features. Over the next year to year and a half you will see more major players drop Plasma altogether, I believe. The weight, fragility, cost, it just doesn't make sense any more.
The LCD has :
lighter weight (a LOT lighter!)
better picture in every respect, even to his old Plasma in dark scenes!
thinner
A few years ago, Plasma was the de facto standard for home theatre and large TV flat technology, but LCD is progressing too fast for Plasma to keep up either on cost or on features. Over the next year to year and a half you will see more major players drop Plasma altogether, I believe. The weight, fragility, cost, it just doesn't make sense any more.
Funny how all the LCD proponents compare the *new* LCD with the *old* plasma. Plasma is still the de facto standard. As I said earlier LCDs are not generally manufacturered at 50 inches and above. And those that are do not match the black performance of the *newer* plasmas. Not to mention they are more expensive.
In what ways are the LCDs progressing 'too fast' as you claim? Do you mean the viewing angle where LCDs still trail plasmas. Blacks....LCDs still trail. Response? LCDs still trail. Color accuracy? LCDs still trail.
What 'features' do LCDs have that plasmas do not?
Cost? Compare a 50 inch plasma to a 50 inch LCD flat panel. Which is more expensive?
Fragility? How is the plasma more fragile? Again, be specific.
Better picture? No, plasmas have better pictures. The new ones have better pictures.
This is the same ol' LCD nonsensespeak we are used to seeing....in the past it is LCDs vs. CRTs. Now LCD fans replace CRTs with plasmas. Just because the plasmas are older technology, they think LCDs are better. False assumption. There is something to be said for maturity of a tech and plasmas have been around longer and have had its kinks worked out.
Speaking of Westinghouse, take a look at this review and notice the screenies:
http://www.denguru.com/2006/10/19/the_westinghouse_lvm/page2.html
In general, they gave it a favorable review (for the price) but the PQ is extremely lacking. I would not want to own this. Faces look ruddy, sunburnt and blacks look blue. But guess, what....it's cheap and it does 1080p which is the end all and be all these days. Nasty IMO.
See this is the problem, I admit that plasma's are better than LCD's in most respects. But that review was complete crap. I can get my Sharp Aquos to display images better than the reference images. You just need to tweak it, just like you need to with Plasma's out of the box and almost every TV I've ever owned.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
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Plasma and LCD technology are both pretty old, but it's basically undeniable that LCD is moving much faster than Plasma towards market domination. Plasma is nearly gone from the sub 40" market, and LCDs are getting bigger, cheaper, and better constantly. Yes, Plasmas are still improving, but the improvements are incremental. Look at high end LCDs from 2003 and compare to now. Look at high end Plasma from 2003 and compare to now. Just a few years ago LCD refresh rates, contrast ratios, large sizes being unavailable, and unnattractive pricing made them not even worth looking at for the most part. Now you can go to any major store (Wal Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc), and see a great selection of vastly improved large LCDs, at good prices. If I was in the market today, personally I would get DLP, primarily for cost to quality ratio. I can go out right now and get a 55" Samsung Full 1080hd DLP for MUCH MUCH less than Plasma or LCD. A recent search found one for $1399.
If trends continue (LCD pricing plummeting, refresh/contrast/color getting better, size increasing) .. LCD will be the only sensible option. I mean :
If the quality becomes the same (and to most people, the new LCDs look as good as the new Plasmas in the store) .. who will want to pay a higher price for a Plasma? Looking at what's already happened to the smaller screen sizes, it's probably just a matter of time.
And as for CRT v LCD, I still recommend CRTs for many people, they offer amazing value and quality, and until fairly recently, LCD's basically sucked for PC monitors. It wasn't until refresh rates dropped to 16ms and below that they even started to be viable, as well as coming down to human prices (the same price points that CRTs held until recently).
You seem to get a bit emotional about this stuff, I never can understand it. It reminds me of zealots that rabidly support AMD or Intel, ATI or Nvidia, etc. As I said already, if it were my money being spent right now, I'd drop the dime on DLP. But the writing is on the wall, unless something really surprising happens, Plasma is living on borrowed time. It looks like Laser will replace all current display types however. The beauty of technology is that there are always improvements and innovations hiding ahead.
:beer:
You haven't said a thing. I mention all the areas where LCDs fall short and you address none of them. You say for 'most people' .... 'LCDs look as good as the new plasmas in the store.' Says who? You? What is your evidence. I say for most people the sun rises out of the west. My argument is just as valid as yours.
BTW, did you even take a look at the Westinghouse link I posted? This is one of the more popular manufacturers of LCDs...you got miles and miles of threads on various forums. Did you see the screenshots? The picture is crap! Shadows are blue, faces are red, blacks are crushed. And people adore the Westinghouse. Amazing.
The problem is that you are armed with no information. You don't even care that LCDs do more poorly than plasmas with viewing angle, black detail, black contrast, color fidelity, and still have response issues. You don't care because it's not even part of your vocabulary. And it is not part of your vocabulary because you are uneducated.
Why do I care. It's because the pop culture is driving down quality for the benefit of price and kewlness. And this all started with Dell flooding the market with crappy cheap LCDs and the kiddies going ga ga over them. Because they are slim and light. I don't care about slim and light but I do care about PQ. You don't.
You even mention that you would take DLPs over a plasma. Have you ever done a PQ comparison between the two. I can tell a DLP every time because if you are not perpendicular to the the TV the viewing angle goes straight to h*ll. They are practically as bad as rear projection CRTs. But of course you know that the price is cheaper. And I bet a close second as far as advantages is concerned is the fact you can lift it with one hand. Who cares about rainbows, white/black crush, wanky bulbs when you can lift it off its stand with one hand.
BTW, did you even take a look at the Westinghouse link I posted? This is one of the more popular manufacturers of LCDs...you got miles and miles of threads on various forums. Did you see the screenshots? The picture is crap! Shadows are blue, faces are red, blacks are crushed. And people adore the Westinghouse. Amazing.
The problem is that you are armed with no information. You don't even care that LCDs do more poorly than plasmas with viewing angle, black detail, black contrast, color fidelity, and still have response issues. You don't care because it's not even part of your vocabulary. And it is not part of your vocabulary because you are uneducated.
Why do I care. It's because the pop culture is driving down quality for the benefit of price and kewlness. And this all started with Dell flooding the market with crappy cheap LCDs and the kiddies going ga ga over them. Because they are slim and light. I don't care about slim and light but I do care about PQ. You don't.
You even mention that you would take DLPs over a plasma. Have you ever done a PQ comparison between the two. I can tell a DLP every time because if you are not perpendicular to the the TV the viewing angle goes straight to h*ll. They are practically as bad as rear projection CRTs. But of course you know that the price is cheaper. And I bet a close second as far as advantages is concerned is the fact you can lift it with one hand. Who cares about rainbows, white/black crush, wanky bulbs when you can lift it off its stand with one hand.
Ok, stop trolling. Please, I'm informed and I tell people what they should put their money to. I don't push them, I respect their opinion in almost every way possible.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
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Okay, now you've gone from arrogant to just plain insulting.
(1)- I never said I didn't care about PQ, and won't argue that on the high end right now, you can get a superior Plasma to a LCD. I even said that I continue to recommend CRTs for many people because of the extreme quality/value vs. alternatives.
(2)- I mentioned that I would take DLP over Plasma because I am not Donald freaking Trump. The picture quality of decent DLPs is outstanding, and go find me a NEW 55" Full HD 1080P for $1399 that is plasma. I'd much rather spend the money saved on DLP on speakers, gas, bills, etc.
(3)- As far as 'most people', that is being determined by market forces. Go to Best Buy, Circuit City, what's on the shelves, and what's selling? LCDs are grabbing massive market share, because they've gotten very good, and they've become decently affordable. I'm nto an LCD zealot, as I said, the value of DLP appeals to me. But there's no way you can so easily dismiss LCD altogether, unless you are just an arrogant, rude, single-minded FUD-spiller, which I guess you are. You think that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is 'uneducated'. No, what we are is 'invididuals', and you are a troll, 1st class.
Sorry for my pissy mood. Attitude was crap but I stand by the gist of what I was saying about the LCD and plasma industries and the decline of PQ standards. I have a Panasonic plasma and studied all this for a long long time. And BTW, aside from the pissy attitude if you look through the content of my posts you'll find substance and even a link. No one has bothered to even reply to my evaluation of blacks, viewing angle, et. al. I wonder why. Buy whatever you want and Merry Christmas. :beer:
Did you even read my first post? I admitted that LCD isn't as good as Plasma! I agree with all of your points, it's just that LCD's are cheaper to manufacture in large numbers at sizes from 15" to upwards of 50". I like my 26" Sharp LCD, but if I had the room(size and literally the room) to have a Plasma display I'd take it in a few seconds.
Sharp Aquos is a whole different animal. They've plummeted in price recently but it is one TV that I wouldn't mind owning.
BTW, there is only so much you can do with tint control. It's only good for adjustment a couple of notches because though you can reduce red levels, you also rebalance the TV more toward green. There is nothing that you can do though to fix that Westinghouse short of paying for ISF calibration and even then you might not be able to fix that red balance or whatever the h*ll that is. Those screenies tell the story.
One thing I can agree on with Hadsus is that "the pop culture is driving down quality for the benefit of price"
Look everywhere and it's there. One of my pet peeves is CD packaging. When CD's first appeared, they were in jewel cases and sold as a premium product. The CD's themselves were thick. Then the CD's became thinner and thinner, as did the plastic in the jewel boxes, until they got replaced by cardboard wrappers.
As for large screen TV's they still sell for a sizable amount, yet the warranty is only one year. What a vote of confidence from the manufacturers. My Toshiba CRT TV had a 5-year warranty when I bought it.
Look at plane travel...Or try to buy a CD player that is not $29 or $1500... Why do you think every function is now on remote controls while you can't do anything on the (insert name of electronic appliance here) itself?: To save money, and damn the usability. My 1985 vintage Sony SLHF600 Beta Hi-Fi VCR (True!) is easier to program than the on-screen-programming-only VHS VCR that I bought a few years ago. And on and on...
The article I posted at the beginning of this thread makes the point that LCD R&D and manufacturing economics will make life harder and harder for Plasma. The overwhelming majority of people are not videophiles or audiophiles, and are more interested in the Wow factor and pricing.
A few months ago, I was at Futureshop while a salesman was demontrating a Home Cinema sound system to a family. The sound was really horrible, with booming bass, no treble and no definition. Yet, the parents and the kids seemed enthralled. It took me a lot of willpower not to intervene to tell them how bad it was.
Even if LCD eventually drives Plasma out of the mainstream, it should be expected that Plasma will remain as a viable, higher-priced product aimed at the videophile.
Look everywhere and it's there. One of my pet peeves is CD packaging. When CD's first appeared, they were in jewel cases and sold as a premium product. The CD's themselves were thick. Then the CD's became thinner and thinner, as did the plastic in the jewel boxes, until they got replaced by cardboard wrappers.
As for large screen TV's they still sell for a sizable amount, yet the warranty is only one year. What a vote of confidence from the manufacturers. My Toshiba CRT TV had a 5-year warranty when I bought it.
Look at plane travel...Or try to buy a CD player that is not $29 or $1500... Why do you think every function is now on remote controls while you can't do anything on the (insert name of electronic appliance here) itself?: To save money, and damn the usability. My 1985 vintage Sony SLHF600 Beta Hi-Fi VCR (True!) is easier to program than the on-screen-programming-only VHS VCR that I bought a few years ago. And on and on...
The article I posted at the beginning of this thread makes the point that LCD R&D and manufacturing economics will make life harder and harder for Plasma. The overwhelming majority of people are not videophiles or audiophiles, and are more interested in the Wow factor and pricing.
A few months ago, I was at Futureshop while a salesman was demontrating a Home Cinema sound system to a family. The sound was really horrible, with booming bass, no treble and no definition. Yet, the parents and the kids seemed enthralled. It took me a lot of willpower not to intervene to tell them how bad it was.
Even if LCD eventually drives Plasma out of the mainstream, it should be expected that Plasma will remain as a viable, higher-priced product aimed at the videophile.
redgtxdi
Diamond Member
- Jun 23, 2004
- 5,464
- 8
- 81
No, plasma TV's are not being phased out.
I have issues w/ cheap plasmas.
I also have issues w/ most LCD's.
It's gonna take a while to get LCD's to plasma worthy PQ......imho.
I *do* like the idea that LCD has a matte finish, vs. the gloss of plasma glass. Sure, the idea of glass is nice, but LCD also has those brilliantly bright pixels even thru matte finish. Plus, matte finish eliminates the need for light control when you have a plasma.
I saw my sister's 50" Pioneer "Elite" plasma this weekend. By far.......it resolved SDTV better than ANY hdtv I've ever seen in my life and I've seen A LOT!!! Still, I had some issues w/ it, but I must say that if I stayed far enough away from the set, I think it's a set I could own. (Note, however, that this takes all the sub $2K plasmas out of my short list. It would probably leave Pioneer "Elite" type sets or the latest/greatest Panny can produce just to satisfy my criticism!!)
All that said.......................ALL video looks great on my 36" WEGA CRT and I see no reason to get rid of it anytime soon. (2 years? 3 years??)
I have issues w/ cheap plasmas.
I also have issues w/ most LCD's.
It's gonna take a while to get LCD's to plasma worthy PQ......imho.
I *do* like the idea that LCD has a matte finish, vs. the gloss of plasma glass. Sure, the idea of glass is nice, but LCD also has those brilliantly bright pixels even thru matte finish. Plus, matte finish eliminates the need for light control when you have a plasma.
I saw my sister's 50" Pioneer "Elite" plasma this weekend. By far.......it resolved SDTV better than ANY hdtv I've ever seen in my life and I've seen A LOT!!! Still, I had some issues w/ it, but I must say that if I stayed far enough away from the set, I think it's a set I could own. (Note, however, that this takes all the sub $2K plasmas out of my short list. It would probably leave Pioneer "Elite" type sets or the latest/greatest Panny can produce just to satisfy my criticism!!)
All that said.......................ALL video looks great on my 36" WEGA CRT and I see no reason to get rid of it anytime soon. (2 years? 3 years??)
Show me a LCD that can come close to the Pio Elite and we'll talk. CES should give you a good idea if Plasma's are being phased out or still going strong.
Right now if I was in the mood for a 50inch, I'd be strongly looking at the Panasonic TH50PX600U. For under 2k, that is *THE* TV to own.
Right now if I was in the mood for a 50inch, I'd be strongly looking at the Panasonic TH50PX600U. For under 2k, that is *THE* TV to own.
Mine is the Panny th-50px50u which is the older model with the more modest input set. Excellent TV. At the time I bought it the only other TV I was considering was a Pioneer plasma. The Elites were a bit out of my price range though I don't know how much they are today. I also own a Pioneer Elite 53" HD CRT which can still hold it's own performance wise.
redgtxdi
Diamond Member
- Jun 23, 2004
- 5,464
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QFT!!!
Curious to how much longer Pio Elite can hold out Panny's versions. My sister (yuppy) thinks highly enough of Pio Elite stuff......(she always wants the 'best' stuff)......that she wouldn't even consider the Panny when I told her about it.
???
If your sister wants the "best," I hope she at least had a professional come over and calibrate her set.
I have the exact same 50" Panasonic plasma. Bought it this past Jan as a house warming gift for me and my wife's move into our new house
I probably should'nt have, but I also purchased a 3year warranty (in home service) for it which cost $800. Hey, it was my first $4,000 tv and I wanted to feel more secure **LOL**I did tons of research and reading up on resolution and HD content, etc. And this was one of the best tv's at the time for the price. Currently have cable set up through the Cable Card. Set Top boxes are teh crap and channel surfing is SOOOOO damn lagging slow when going through one! I had no need for On demand crap or PPV, as those are the only things you gain with a box.
redgtxdi
Diamond Member
- Jun 23, 2004
- 5,464
- 8
- 81
QFT!!!!
How people are able to tolerate the lag when using STB's is beyond me!!!! I'm always flippin' amazed at how much we put up with to get what we want.
To be fair, I've heard the newer Motorola boxes for my cableco out here in So Cal (TW) are getting better, but there still ain't nothin' like flippin' channels via analog!!!
Originally posted by: CorCentral
I have the exact same 50" Panasonic plasma. Bought it this past Jan as a house warming gift for me and my wife's move into our new house
I did tons of research and reading up on resolution and HD content, etc. And this was one of the best tv's at the time for the price. Currently have cable set up through the Cable Card. Set Top boxes are teh crap and channel surfing is SOOOOO damn lagging slow when going through one! I had no need for On demand crap or PPV, as those are the only things you gain with a box.
Yeah, I also bit on the extended warranty. My Pioneer Elite CRT had some problems (convergence board) and it's expensive to fix those things (~$500).
I've got my Panny hooked up to Dish's HD DVR (vip-622). The sound is routed out of the DVR to my digital surround sound Pioneer Elite receiver (5.1 speakers) Channel surfing is quick enough. Only complaint I've had of the TV is glare when the room is brightly lit. The PQ is phenominal. And I just got TW2007 for the 360 and have probably spent about a dozen hours already playing it on my plasma.
I'd certainly take the 65inch Panny 1080P set over the Elite. For a little bit more, the extra 15inches goes a long way! But Panny's have a habbit of treating SD content bad where as the Elite excels at this.
At that price range, time to look a the some high end projectors though
Catch this ad posted by Panasonic recently. I can't remember one manufacturer ever promoting one tech (plasma) over another (LCD):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=71045
Thread discussing this ad printed in NY Times:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774843
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=71045
Thread discussing this ad printed in NY Times:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774843
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