Are Monster Cables overpriced?

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: Ornery
You're welcome to post a link or two to back up your lip, chump.

How about you fix yours first. While we wait, I'll go on AR, post a review about some great cables, and then come back here and post the link as proof that I'm right.

But just to play along:

http://www.audioreview.com/Cables/Cables+Maestro+/PRD_116612_1584crx.aspx#reviews

There are thousands more on AR. Enjoy.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: OS



I don't really care to pick apart your fallacious example.

It's no more flawed than your assertion.

I just remembered this discussion I had with one of my EE profs where he said, don't bother trying to explain stuff to those sort of people. You can just get rich off of them instead.

Guess what my degree is in?


Fortunately, years of rote learning didn't destroy my ability to discern between art and science. YMMV.

 

[spidey07]

Another EE here, graduated in 1993 from Purdue.

Yes cables can make a difference. There are those that think they don't. It just depends on what side of the fence you sit on.

However it has been my experience that most all of the cable naysayers do not own a hi-fi stereo. Not all mind you because there are folks with very nice stereos running regular coax cable for interconnects.

I performed a blind test with interconnects and speaker cables in my own stereo and was able to identify the cable in 8/8 trials. So its good enough for me, but not all.

 

[Ornery]

Nothing like opinions with data and credentials to back them up:

Cable Nonsense

• To say, as some do, that there are factors involved that competent engineers and scientists have yet to identify is utter nonsense and a cover-up for what should be called pure snake oil and buzzard salve - in short, pure fraud. If any cable manufacturer, writer, technician, etc. can identify such an audible design parameter that cannot be measured using available lab equipment or be described by known theory, I can guarantee a nomination for a Nobel Prize.
  
  - John Dunlavy

DESIGNER CABLES: a critical look

• Some audio experts believe audio is too important to be trusted to technology, and consequently, they dismiss all scientific methods, including double-blind tests. This attitude, combined with the widespread notion that more expensive products must be better, has opened the door to a flood of marketing hype and misinformation. Promotional white papers abound with pseudo-science buzz words, theoretical explanations based on absurd and fanciful physics, and new proprietary measurement techniques replete with previously unknown units of measure.
  
  - Bill Whitlock

 

[Mani]

I've done TDR scans of standard-length Monster video cables and they were no better in signal quality than your run-of-the mill cable. Now maybe if you are running a very looong cable they may sweat the details of impedance matching a bit more but I haven't tested any of their extra long cables. In any case I doubt they are worth the exhorbitant prices.

Disclaimer: Not speaking on behalf of my employer

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Nothing like opinions with data and credentials to back them up:

Cable Nonsense

• To say, as some do, that there are factors involved that competent engineers and scientists have yet to identify is utter nonsense and a cover-up for what should be called pure snake oil and buzzard salve - in short, pure fraud. If any cable manufacturer, writer, technician, etc. can identify such an audible design parameter that cannot be measured using available lab equipment or be described by known theory, I can guarantee a nomination for a Nobel Prize.
  
  - John Dunlavy

DESIGNER CABLES: a critical look

• Some audio experts believe audio is too important to be trusted to technology, and consequently, they dismiss all scientific methods, including double-blind tests. This attitude, combined with the widespread notion that more expensive products must be better, has opened the door to a flood of marketing hype and misinformation. Promotional white papers abound with pseudo-science buzz words, theoretical explanations based on absurd and fanciful physics, and new proprietary measurement techniques replete with previously unknown units of measure.
  
  - Bill Whitlock

Not everything you read is true and is merely opinion.

www.cardas.com

-edit- Do you own a hi-fi stereo? Have you participated in any SBT or DBTs? If so then your opinion is meaningful. Otherwise you're just some guy reguritating what he's read on the internet.

 

[H34D0N]

Originally posted by: jaeger66
Monster are overpriced relative to what you get. But premium cables, in general, are a necessary part of a premium system. If you're just hooking up your Soundblaster to some plastic cube speakers it really doesn't matter.

I have used them on PS2 systems, and X-Boxes.. The quialty afterwards is amazing.. But remember you usually get what you pay for, these ARE PREMIUM wires.

 

[Ornery]

"Not everything you read is true and is merely opinion."

Those two links and opinions are from men with SOLID credentials and data to back up their opinions. My opinion means sh!t compared to theirs. How do you think yours stacks up?

 

[spidey07]

How do you think yours stacks up?

Like I said. It is backed up with experience. Yours is backed by some link on the internet.

We'll never agree, just like you'll never admit you don't own a hi-fi stereo nor have you participated in DBTs on cables and their affectiveness.

You'll just keep posting links.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: H34D0N

Originally posted by: jaeger66
Monster are overpriced relative to what you get. But premium cables, in general, are a necessary part of a premium system. If you're just hooking up your Soundblaster to some plastic cube speakers it really doesn't matter.

I have used them on PS2 systems, and X-Boxes.. The quialty afterwards is amazing.. But remember you usually get what you pay for, these ARE PREMIUM wires.

Are you sure you aren't seeing the difference between composite & s-video/component video?

I seriously doubt that a $200 console is capable of audio signals that cables will make an ounce of difference on.

Viper GTS

 

[Ornery]

"...you'll never admit you don't own a hi-fi...

What an ass!

 

[DamageInc]

Are Monster Cables good quality cables? Yes.
Are they worth the money? Depends on the quality of your audio (or video) equipment.

If you have a crappy input or output source, the cables aren't going to help you out much. However, if you have good input and output sources, the quality of cable should match the quality of the rest of your equipment for optimal performance.

If you've spent thousands and thousands on your AV stuff, why wouldn't you buy a high quality cable?

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: spidey07


I performed a blind test with interconnects and speaker cables in my own stereo and was able to identify the cable in 8/8 trials. So its good enough for me, but not all.

How does one perform their own blind test?

 

[DrPizza]

Excellent post, Ornery.

The hardest thing to decide is the minimum gauge of wire for the best performance... After you reach that plateau, anything extra you spend by getting thicker and thicker cable is just money being thrown away.

 

[amnesiac]

Any of you people advocating high-priced cables -- look up all the double-blind studies that compare zip cord with expensive cables.

"Audiophiles" who claimed to be able to hear the difference between $30 and $3000 cable showed that they were no better at distinguishing the differences than pure chance. In fact, when the test subjects were shown the "expensive" cable they rated it higher based on looks alone, even though the cables being used were still the zip cords. The benefits from using such expensive interconnects are purely metaphysical and philosophical. By all means, if you want to spend $10,000 on cables, go do so but it would be like buying $2000 Prada underpants when a $20 pair of Jockeys is made of the exact same thing and serves the same purpose. No one's going to be looking at either of them, anyway.

 

[Glitchny]

Indeed

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: DamageInc

If you've spent thousands and thousands on your AV stuff, why wouldn't you buy a high quality cable?

Because (links have already been posted) double blind tests prove that the cable makes no difference. I'd rather take the 10% (the supposed amount one is to spend on cables) and buy another component.

 

[Marauder-]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: DamageInc

If you've spent thousands and thousands on your AV stuff, why wouldn't you buy a high quality cable?

Because (links have already been posted) double blind tests prove that the cable makes no difference. I'd rather take the 10% (the supposed amount one is to spend on cables) and buy another component.

Exactly - you would see a much better improvement in your system w/ that 10%.

I do believe that more expensive cables do before better - but only marginally better. An upgraded component will make eons of difference on the other hand.

From my reseach / experience - this is what it boils down to: Speaker wire : 12ga seems to be the sweet spot. Video : Component > Svideo > Composite / Coax. And also: in terms of video performance, your best value would be in making your own cables w/ Belden/Canare cables/connectors. You can also make digital coax / sub cables w/ this stuff.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: spidey07

How do you think yours stacks up?

Like I said. It is backed up with experience. Yours is backed by some link on the internet.

We'll never agree, just like you'll never admit you don't own a hi-fi stereo nor have you participated in DBTs on cables and their affectiveness.

You'll just keep posting links.

a completely anonymous person on the internet vs known and well-credentialed people? guess who lost on that comparison?

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: amnesiac

"Audiophiles" who claimed to be able to hear the difference between $30 and $3000 cable showed that they were no better at distinguishing the differences than pure chance. In fact, when the test subjects were shown the "expensive" cable they rated it higher based on looks alone, even though the cables being used were still the zip cords. The benefits from using such expensive interconnects are purely metaphysical and philosophical. By all means, if you want to spend $10,000 on cables, go do so but it would be like buying $2000 Prada underpants when a $20 pair of Jockeys is made of the exact same thing and serves the same purpose. No one's going to be looking at either of them, anyway.

You know why I don't post in threads about guns? Because I don't know a damn thing about them. You'd be wise to follow my example.

 

Ornery, you need to update your post, its over 2 years old now.
None of the links work, and half of the studies done were not done in a certified dolby sound cage, or with any ceritified sound technicians.

I don't dispute the findings, but the whole bit about getting a full dolby signal with a coat hanger is COMPLETE BS.
My good friend works at an audio engineering joint, they do installs for studios and moble studio work for rent.
They have 1 FULL dolby sound booth, at the cost of over 1 million dollars.
The entire company was roaring with laughter when they read the links.

Edit: Monster cables are insanly overpriced, as is all audiophile gear.
The human ear only has a limited range of tone capabilities, no matter how much the technology changes, your hearing does not.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: spidey07

How do you think yours stacks up?

Like I said. It is backed up with experience. Yours is backed by some link on the internet.

We'll never agree, just like you'll never admit you don't own a hi-fi stereo nor have you participated in DBTs on cables and their affectiveness.

You'll just keep posting links.

a completely anonymous person on the internet vs known and well-credentialed people? guess who lost on that comparison?

John Dunlavy credible on speaker cables? I don't think so. He is a great speaker designer. But anyway speaker cables have the LEAST affect. Interconnects and power cables are more noticible.

Oh, how's his company doing since his new found revalation?

Single blind tests are performed with the subject (me) unaware of any change in the system while they are out of the room and the tester changes or doesn't change one component. Testee then attempts to pick if component was changed or not by listening for 5 minutes or so. The speaker cables were the hardest for me to nail and took a little longer. But I'll have to admit my speakers are incredibly picky about inductance and capacitance as the speaker itself offers a capacitive load and impedance of 1 ohm. Otherwise 12 gauge is fine.

Have fun and no need to pick on me. I have just really been into this stuff for 20 years and hear the same arguments from both sides ad nausem. In the end nobody changes their minds.

And a DBT also proves that coke and pepsi taste the same so I have little faith in them.

 

[Ornery]

"...and half of the studies done were not done in a certified dolby sound cage, or with any ceritified sound technicians."

Some of the tests consisted of merely telling the listener that a cable was changed, when none were at all. Yet they discerned differences anyway. Now you tell me why that type of test would need a particular "sound stage" or technicians around?

Other tests were straight into test gear far more sensative than the human ear. Not good enough?

The average Joe who pays through the nose for these Designer Cables, has average gear and listens to average media. Some of them are probably critiquing the nuances of MP3 based sources! If anybody deserves an eye roll, it's Monster Cable and their hype!

Too bad that pile of info and liinks is so old, but updating the whole thing, like Monster Cable et al, ain't worth it!

 

[thomsbrain]

i have a monster guitar cable. it sounds good, but not any better than any other high quality cable, and it was a lot more expensive. the worst part is, i play "rough" and it was destroyed in only a couple months, while other cables, even the cheap ones, have lasted much longer.

 

[Analog]

monster cable is nothing more than clever marketing. i've read many papers on impedance measurement on these cables vs. others and its proven over and over that there is no scientific basis for "oxygen free" cables yada yada.

The advantage of heavier gauge wire is not so much ampacity, but the "skin effect". Since audio signals have a wide range of frequency content, higher frequencies tend to travel on the skin of conductors, thus rendering the insides unused. Therefore the same piece of wire "looks" like a higher impedance at higher frequency. The problem with that argument is that most of the power consumption in speakers is at the lower frequencies, and therefore the harmonic content of the signal from a power perspective is still in the "innards" of the conductor, and not the skin. So if you are really concerned with the "skin effect" and its conseqences, use flat ribbon shield or grounding straps for your speaker connections. They would surely beat any monster cable, since they have a large amount of surface area, and a lot of ampacity. Otherwise, a decent 12AWG speaker wire will satisfy 95% of all audio applications. HTH