Are K & N air filters worth it??

[thebestMAX]

ELI-

.01 micron????? Find that hard to believe but not dissing you. Going to check it out.

K&N claims 10-20 micron with a flow rate of 12-16 gal/min.

Dont think it matters a lot as I change my oil religiously (and always have) in my LS1 T/A. Used to do it every 1000 miles but have recently changet ot 3mo/3000 mi.

Remember those filters of the 80s (?) that used rolls of toilet paper??? Never change your oil they said. Think they were big with truckers

 

[Zenmervolt]

Just remember one thing: More air flow = less filtration.

If you live in a dusty climate then a K&N is definitely NOT the way to go. As far as a performance gain, it's not measureable. The only thing you'll get is more induction noise, which often will fool the brain into thinking that you're going faster. In terms of replacement costs, the K&N does come out ahead since you can clean it though.

ZV

EDIT: Assuming two filters that have the same surface area, the one with better flow will have worse filtration. Period. Now, if K&N has a greater surface area than a disposable filter, it would be possible to have better filtration and better flow, however if all else is equal then you simply cannot get both more filtration and more flow. Welcome to the laws of physics.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Gillbot
Actually, the micron ratings are on the box, right on the side for most store bought oil filters.

I have found in MY vehicle that the 10 micron and lower filters generally do not flow well enough for daily passenger car use.

Personally I think Amsoil is overrated, and I love their 10k change interval recommandation..... Total CRAP IMHO. I run Mobil 1 oil in my Camaro and I still change it every 3-4k. Many say that I'm wasting my money but hey, it's my money right!?!?!?! The best oil system would be constantly replenished oil with no reuse, so 3K (as opposed to 6-10k) interval sounds good to me!

Actually, AMSOil has 25,000 mile change interval recommendations for its fully synthetic oil. 🙂 Under no circumstances should you change your oil filter every 25,000 miles, though.

It isn't total crap. The 3000 mile oil change, as it stands with new lubrication technology, is a myth. In Europe, I believe the standard change interval is 9000 miles. Most manufacturers recommend a 7500 mile oil change under normal driving conditions. The 3000 mile oil change figure is a severe service number.

AMSOil produces some of the best synthetic oil on the market, and you pay for that. It is certainly, technically, better than Mobil 1.. But it also costs twice as much. It's your call.

Besides, I wasn't talking about their oil.. I was talking about their bypass oil filter system. It produces analytically clean oil.

It sure did come as news to me, but you may actually be accelerating wear in your engine by changing your oil too much. There are anti-wear additives in the oil that have chemical reactions with some metals in your engine, accelerating wear. Normally, the additives are depleated as you drive.. But if your always putting new oil into the engine before it "wears out", you may be causing more harm than good. 🙁

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: thebestMAX
ELI-

.01 micron????? Find that hard to believe but not dissing you. Going to check it out.

K&N claims 10-20 micron with a flow rate of 12-16 gal/min.

Yep. 0.01 micron. I believe thats 1/10th, right? 😛

Linkified.

Maybe it's 0.1. I'm not in math mode today.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Eli
It sure did come as news to me, but you may actually be accelerating wear in your engine by changing your oil too much. There are anti-wear additives in the oil that have chemical reactions with some metals in your engine, accelerating wear. Normally, the additives are depleated as you drive.. But if your always putting new oil into the engine before it "wears out", you may be causing more harm than good. 🙁

I call BS on that. No oil company would put something in the oil which would accelerate wear.

ZV

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Gillbot
Actually, the micron ratings are on the box, right on the side for most store bought oil filters.

I have found in MY vehicle that the 10 micron and lower filters generally do not flow well enough for daily passenger car use.

Personally I think Amsoil is overrated, and I love their 10k change interval recommandation..... Total CRAP IMHO. I run Mobil 1 oil in my Camaro and I still change it every 3-4k. Many say that I'm wasting my money but hey, it's my money right!?!?!?! The best oil system would be constantly replenished oil with no reuse, so 3K (as opposed to 6-10k) interval sounds good to me!

Yeah, but just knowing the micron rating they stick on the box isn't good enough. It does not mean that the filter captures 100% of the 20 micron particles after 1 pass. It probably means that its nominally efficent at 20 microns; that is it captures about 90% of the 20 micron particles after 1 pass.

 

[Gillbot]

Wear numbers are flat across the board with oil analysis. The main reason MY oil is changed so frequently is due to the sit time of the car (it not a Daily Driver) and I drag race it regularly.

Most manufacturers recommend a 7500 mile oil change under normal driving conditions.

What most people seem to overlook is "normal driving conditions" is basically highway driving. Most manufacturers consider city or stop and go driving abusive. My car sees many short 1320 ft blasts 😉 so I would consider that abusive and the 6k interval IMHO is way too long.

I have never said anything about "this is what everyone should do", this is what I see from oil analysis on MY car. Just want to make that clear. When people ask me about oil change intervals at work, I say go with the recommended interval or SOONER and be safe. If you want to establish a true interval, get your oil tested by a lab, they'll tell you when to change it.

Amsoil is a GREAT oil, don't get me wrong. I'm just not pleased with their advertizing practices. Plus I will not pay their prices, Mobil one will suffice for me.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Eli
It sure did come as news to me, but you may actually be accelerating wear in your engine by changing your oil too much. There are anti-wear additives in the oil that have chemical reactions with some metals in your engine, accelerating wear. Normally, the additives are depleated as you drive.. But if your always putting new oil into the engine before it "wears out", you may be causing more harm than good. 🙁

I call BS on that. No oil company would put something in the oil which would accelerate wear.

ZV

I know.. I know.. I sat and thought about it for a long time.. But I guess it's true. The additive is ZDDP. I'll try and find the thread we had about it or the article that stated it.

 

[Gillbot]

Actually, it's rated at 98% for particles 20 micron and larger. NO filter will catch 100% of all particles, it's all part of the manufacturing process. They would have to perfectly align all the fibers for 100% filtration.

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Gillbot
Actually, the micron ratings are on the box, right on the side for most store bought oil filters.

I have found in MY vehicle that the 10 micron and lower filters generally do not flow well enough for daily passenger car use.

Personally I think Amsoil is overrated, and I love their 10k change interval recommandation..... Total CRAP IMHO. I run Mobil 1 oil in my Camaro and I still change it every 3-4k. Many say that I'm wasting my money but hey, it's my money right!?!?!?! The best oil system would be constantly replenished oil with no reuse, so 3K (as opposed to 6-10k) interval sounds good to me!

Yeah, but just knowing the micron rating they stick on the box isn't good enough. It does not mean that the filter captures 100% of the 20 micron particles after 1 pass. It probably means that its nominally efficent at 20 microns; that is it captures about 90% of the 20 micron particles after 1 pass.

 

[iamwiz82]

i change my daily drivers' oil every 7000 miles and my offroad truck gets it every 3000 miles. It sits for long periods and if it is being run, its usually in 4LO.

As for air filters, I use plain ole paper ones. I actually threw out my K&N in the Jeep since I see alot of sand and other nasties, and it just wasnt worth the amount of oil covering my TB. Must have over oiled, but i still wasnt happy with it.

 

[Quixfire]

A word of caution; K&N filters, the ones that require oil, can cause problems with hot wire Mass Airflow Sensors. The oil from the filter can coat the sensor wires and cause them to burn out. I have see this on quite a few Mustangs, Camero/Firebirds, Thunderbirds, and a few misc. cars.

 

[thebestMAX]

ELI-

I only saw 1/10 th micron claimed on their site but didnt check the whole thing. Also they are talking a by pass system, an auxiliary system, not the full flow filter.

BTW, 1=1 , .1 = 1/10, .01 = 1/100 .001 =1/1000 😀 I once missed an A in Physics because i got mixed up on just how small an Angstrom was. I said 10 to the -6thM (a micron) and its 10 to the -9thM.

 

[Spoooon]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Eli
It sure did come as news to me, but you may actually be accelerating wear in your engine by changing your oil too much. There are anti-wear additives in the oil that have chemical reactions with some metals in your engine, accelerating wear. Normally, the additives are depleated as you drive.. But if your always putting new oil into the engine before it "wears out", you may be causing more harm than good. 🙁

I call BS on that. No oil company would put something in the oil which would accelerate wear.

ZV

I know.. I know.. I sat and thought about it for a long time.. But I guess it's true. The additive is ZDDP. I'll try and find the thread we had about it or the article that stated it.

I remember the thread. The article that someone linked to was some sort of military publication.

edit: thread

article

 

[The Sauce]

Eli, I might go against you here. I have been reading a lot on the subject, especially at bobistheoilguy forums, regarding air filters. I got into it one day and hunted down everything that I could find on the subject. There is a lot of data showing increased silicone counts on oil analysis with the use of K&N's, and as you know, increased silicone counts = dirt and premature engine wear. A lot of these people are professional mechanics who I am sure have taken into account leaks, incorrect installation, etc. Even you must admit that if it flows better (as K&N's surely do) then it must filter less efficiently. Sure it works better the dirtier it gets, it needs the dirt to help plug up those macroscopic pores and actually filter some stuff out. As one person aptly put, the K&N follows the rule of "B's" - that is to say that it is very efficient at filtering out Birds, Bricks, and Burritos. But the data has shown that even dirty, the K&N does not filter as efficiently as even a new paper filter. I refer you to The Oildrop Server, air filter forum. My Supra had a K&N and within 20K miles started losing oil and coolant like a sieve. Finally blew up at 124K miles. Not saying it was the K&N, but it should have gone a lot longer than that and this was the only mod I made to the car. But clearly there is better data on the matter than that case report of one.

As far as I am concerned, protecting my engine is priority #1, and I will not sacrifice premature engine wear for a few more HP and better airflow. I would not let a K&N within 10 feet of my new baby based on what I have read.

 

[Gillbot]

www.bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Eli, I might go against you here. I have been reading a lot on the subject, especially at bobistheoilguy forums, regarding air filters. I got into it one day and hunted down everything that I could find on the subject. There is a lot of data showing increased silicone counts on oil analysis with the use of K&N's, and as you know, increased silicone counts = dirt and premature engine wear. A lot of these people are professional mechanics who I am sure have taken into account leaks, incorrect installation, etc. Even you must admit that if it flows better (as K&N's surely do) then it must filter less efficiently. Sure it works better the dirtier it gets, it needs the dirt to help plug up those macroscopic pores and actually filter some stuff out. As one person aptly put, the K&N follows the rule of "B's" - that is to say that it is very efficient at filtering out Birds, Bricks, and small Burritos. But the data has shown that even dirty, the K&N does not filter as efficiently as even a new paper filter. I refer you to The Oildrop Server, air filter forum. My Supra had a K&N and withing 20K miles started losing oil and coolant like a sieve. Finally blew up at 124K miles. Not saying it was the K&N, but it should have gone a lot longer than that and this was the only mod I made to the car. But clearly there is better data on the matter than that case report of one.

Well, interesting. Maybe we're all mislead. :Q

 

[Gillbot]

😛

Originally posted by: Eli
Where the hell did you pull that? Apparently, from your ass. 😛

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Gillbot
I'm going to go against the grain here and say NO. Sure they flow better and may add MINIMAL HP increases, but they do allow more dirt to enter the engine.

:Q
no, No and NO!

Where the hell did you pull that? Apparently, from your ass. 😛

They filter better than any pleated paper filter. Infact, the dirtier the K&N airfilter gets, the better it filters.

They flow better than any paper filter. They are also reusable.

i agree with Gillbot 100%. he's correct.

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: Quixfire
A word of caution; K&N filters, the ones that require oil, can cause problems with hot wire Mass Airflow Sensors. The oil from the filter can coat the sensor wires and cause them to burn out. I have see this on quite a few Mustangs, Camero/Firebirds, Thunderbirds, and a few misc. cars.

so RTFM and don't oil them incorrectly.

 

[SgtBuddy]

Originally posted by: Gillbot
www.bobistheoilguy.com

No comf in my computer

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Eli, I might go against you here. I have been reading a lot on the subject, especially at bobistheoilguy forums, regarding air filters. I got into it one day and hunted down everything that I could find on the subject. There is a lot of data showing increased silicone counts on oil analysis with the use of K&N's, and as you know, increased silicone counts = dirt and premature engine wear. A lot of these people are professional mechanics who I am sure have taken into account leaks, incorrect installation, etc. Even you must admit that if it flows better (as K&N's surely do) then it must filter less efficiently. Sure it works better the dirtier it gets, it needs the dirt to help plug up those macroscopic pores and actually filter some stuff out. As one person aptly put, the K&N follows the rule of "B's" - that is to say that it is very efficient at filtering out Birds, Bricks, and Burritos. But the data has shown that even dirty, the K&N does not filter as efficiently as even a new paper filter. I refer you to The Oildrop Server, air filter forum. My Supra had a K&N and within 20K miles started losing oil and coolant like a sieve. Finally blew up at 124K miles. Not saying it was the K&N, but it should have gone a lot longer than that and this was the only mod I made to the car. But clearly there is better data on the matter than that case report of one.

As far as I am concerned, protecting my engine is priority #1, and I will not sacrifice premature engine wear for a few more HP and better airflow. I would not let a K&N within 10 feet of my new baby based on what I have read.

they don't measure silicone, they measure silicon.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: Pepsi90919

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Eli, I might go against you here. I have been reading a lot on the subject, especially at bobistheoilguy forums, regarding air filters. I got into it one day and hunted down everything that I could find on the subject. There is a lot of data showing increased silicone counts on oil analysis with the use of K&N's, and as you know, increased silicone counts = dirt and premature engine wear. A lot of these people are professional mechanics who I am sure have taken into account leaks, incorrect installation, etc. Even you must admit that if it flows better (as K&N's surely do) then it must filter less efficiently. Sure it works better the dirtier it gets, it needs the dirt to help plug up those macroscopic pores and actually filter some stuff out. As one person aptly put, the K&N follows the rule of "B's" - that is to say that it is very efficient at filtering out Birds, Bricks, and Burritos. But the data has shown that even dirty, the K&N does not filter as efficiently as even a new paper filter. I refer you to The Oildrop Server, air filter forum. My Supra had a K&N and within 20K miles started losing oil and coolant like a sieve. Finally blew up at 124K miles. Not saying it was the K&N, but it should have gone a lot longer than that and this was the only mod I made to the car. But clearly there is better data on the matter than that case report of one.

As far as I am concerned, protecting my engine is priority #1, and I will not sacrifice premature engine wear for a few more HP and better airflow. I would not let a K&N within 10 feet of my new baby based on what I have read.

they don't measure silicone, they measure silicon.

I measure silicone, but that's another thread.

 

[Gillbot]

DOH!!

Originally posted by: SgtBuddy

Originally posted by: Gillbot
www.bobistheoilguy.com

No comf in my computer

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Spoooon

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Eli
It sure did come as news to me, but you may actually be accelerating wear in your engine by changing your oil too much. There are anti-wear additives in the oil that have chemical reactions with some metals in your engine, accelerating wear. Normally, the additives are depleated as you drive.. But if your always putting new oil into the engine before it "wears out", you may be causing more harm than good. 🙁

I call BS on that. No oil company would put something in the oil which would accelerate wear.

ZV

I know.. I know.. I sat and thought about it for a long time.. But I guess it's true. The additive is ZDDP. I'll try and find the thread we had about it or the article that stated it.

I remember the thread. The article that someone linked to was some sort of military publication.

edit: thread

article

The article makes no connection to engine failure and excessive oil changing, only speculation. They never mention the OCM of the cars that experienced engine failure. They don't mention the type of service the engines are used in. Also, IIRC ZDDP is only a factor when there is a failure in the oiling system permitting insufficient oil coverage of parts. I'm trying to remember properly, but I seem to recall that ZDDP is intended to reduce wear in instances where metal to metal contact is already occuring. Remember, in an engine with a properly functioning oiling system, there is zero metal to metal contact, everything is sliding along on a layer of oil. Changed the oil in my old Honda at 3,000 miles religiously and after 218,000 miles it still doesn't burn any measureable amount of oil and the inside of the engine is 100% original. Also, that article is by the EPA, note that the main interest isn't longevity but reducing the amount of oil that is disposed of. They've got a reason to make people think that too-frequent oil changes are bad.

ZV

 

[brtspears2]

Yup. It helps living down the street from the factory, support local economy I suppose.