Are Intel Fabs rented out?

[Eureka]

I was reading the Intel dgpu thread in VC&G, and there was a lot of mention of Intel fabs being underutilized. If so, why aren't they being rented out to say, AMD and Nvidia, both of whom have problems with their fab partners (GF/TSMC)?

If I understand correctly, Intel has better fab technology, and AMD and Nvidia are both waiting for access to smaller node technology. Wouldn't it be a win-win situation for them to rent out the fabs from Intel?

 

[nehalem256]

Why would Intel rent out to their direct competitor AMD?

Even Nvidia is arguably a direct competitor in HPC applications. And with their mobile ARM processors.

 

[Phynaz]

The is one company the makes chips for the military that has Intel manufacture them - at the request of the U.S. government. Other than that, there's no way Intel is going to let their manufacturing know-how get out to their competitors.

 

[TuxDave]

Why would Intel rent out to their direct competitor AMD?

Even Nvidia is arguably a direct competitor in HPC applications. And with their mobile ARM processors.

Essentially this. Paul Otellini (the CEO) has said that Fab partnerships would have to be strategic and absolutely cannot enable competitors. Altera, an FPGA company, however won the favor of Intel as a strategic partner and they do not directly compete.

 

[Ayah]

Essentially this. Paul Otellini (the CEO) has said that Fab partnerships would have to be strategic and absolutely cannot enable competitors. Altera, an FPGA company, however won the favor of Intel as a strategic partner and they do not directly compete.

They also collaborated on the Intel E6x5C which glue an Arria 2 GX FPGA to an Atom.

 

[tracerbullet]

Agreed, it's not like renting out a hammer, you are talking about the details of the equipment, the settings, the quality system in place, dealing with what happens if your yields aren't as high as expected, dealing with your customers raw materials that aren't to your standards, and on and on and on. It would be a serious headache even if they weren't competitors. My (limited) experience with alliances basically just means "let us deal with ALL of the manufacturing and we'll sell it to you for cheaper than normal since you are taking care of the marketing and distribution and everything else that happens afterwards".

 

[masteryoda34]

Intel is actually in the process of ramping up their foundry business. They have already announced deals to manufacture for Altera, Achronix, and Tabula. Deals with Apple and Cisco have been widely rumored, but not confirmed.

Otellini also said in the call that Intel's foundry business has passed the first stage and hinted at announcements to come.

"I've described the strategy before as a crawl, walk, run strategy. We're past crawling. We're in the mode of collecting serious customers...as you'd expect in this business, and there are some other customers that we still have not yet publicly announced," he said.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57580179-92/intels-ceo-coy-about-hinting-at-apple-deal/

All of you saying that Intel would never do this are totally wrong. Fabs are expensive and Intel needs to put them to use.

 

[erunion]

Intel is actually in the process of ramping up their foundry business. They have already announced deals to manufacture for Altera, Achronix, and Tabula. Deals with Apple and Cisco have been widely rumored, but not confirmed.



http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57580179-92/intels-ceo-coy-about-hinting-at-apple-deal/

All of you saying that Intel would never do this are totally wrong. Fabs are expensive and Intel needs to put them to use.

Intel won't enable a competitor, like has been said in this thread. So AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm not going to happen. And likely nothing running ARMH IP either.

Lots of info about it during the most recent conference call.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/134...sses-q1-2013-results-earnings-call-transcript

 

[Ayah]

Intel is actually in the process of ramping up their foundry business. They have already announced deals to manufacture for Altera, Achronix, and Tabula. Deals with Apple and Cisco have been widely rumored, but not confirmed.



http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57580179-92/intels-ceo-coy-about-hinting-at-apple-deal/

All of you saying that Intel would never do this are totally wrong. Fabs are expensive and Intel needs to put them to use.

None of them directly compete with Intel..

 

[tracerbullet]

Intel won't enable a competitor

Exactly. As a manufacturer with extra equipment capacity you will look for new customers for your current product and new products to build with that same equipment, and you may consider changing up your materials, your processes, your criteria, and so on accordingly. But it will still be your products, just tailored to a customer's requirements. That only makes sense. But "renting out" your manufacturing line to someone else at all, especially to a competitor (even though they may be the most qualified to make use of it) is silly.

 

[Tsavo]

I rent out Fab 34 twice a year to rotate my tires.

 

[Fx1]

When intels sales continue to decline with the lack of PC sales you see how fast intels attitude will change.

 

[lagokc]

Any fab capacity that isn't needed for Intel processors can be put to producing flash memory. There doesn't seem to be any limit to the demand for that at the moment and it's great for testing new processes because the yields are a bit more forgiving than yields for making logic circuits.

 

[blastingcap]

Any fab capacity that isn't needed for Intel processors can be put to producing flash memory. There doesn't seem to be any limit to the demand for that at the moment and it's great for testing new processes because the yields are a bit more forgiving than yields for making logic circuits.

How much time and money does it take to convert back and forth, though?

 

[lagokc]

How much time and money does it take to convert back and forth, though?

They wouldn't need to convert them back and forth, a lot of manufacturers start a new fab on flash or RAM to work the bugs out of the new node before converting them to producing logic circuits. All Intel would have to do is delay converting them for a longer period of time. Given how huge a lead they have on manufacturing nodes and how little gain they're seeing from changing nodes recently that shouldn't make much difference to them.

 

[Unoid]

If theres a claim Intel can run NAND isntead of cpus then why are there multiple reports that intel in idling utilization?

 

[A5]

If theres a claim Intel can run NAND isntead of cpus then why are there multiple reports that intel in idling utilization?

Just because they CAN do something doesn't mean it is profitable for them to do it. They did the math, and the (NAND Profits) - (NAND Switch Costs) - (Cost to switch back to whatever) didn't beat the cost of (turn off the fab).

And "multiple reports"? I'd need a link to that.

 

[Puppies04]

I was reading the Intel dgpu thread in VC&G, and there was a lot of mention of Intel fabs being underutilized. If so, why aren't they being rented out to say, AMD and Nvidia, both of whom have problems with their fab partners (GF/TSMC)?

AMD already have to pay for production at GF that they can't utilise thanks to the crappy contract they signed. How is paying for even more fab time going to help them exactly?

 

[MrDudeMan]

And "multiple reports"? I'd need a link to that.

I'm interested in reading the details of these reports as well.

 

[desura]

Meh, I'd think that ssd's would be a great way to utilize underused space.

One thing I've always wondered about fabs...

Each die shrink requires new equipment, right? Wouldn't it actually make sense in a way to build a new building with the new fab technique and rent out the old obsolete fab (which is still pretty darn good, let's be honest) to someone else?

 

[Imouto]

They wouldn't need to convert them back and forth, a lot of manufacturers start a new fab on flash or RAM to work the bugs out of the new node before converting them to producing logic circuits. All Intel would have to do is delay converting them for a longer period of time. Given how huge a lead they have on manufacturing nodes and how little gain they're seeing from changing nodes recently that shouldn't make much difference to them.

Intel just can't beat Samsung making NAND.

 

[Ayah]

Meh, I'd think that ssd's would be a great way to utilize underused space.

One thing I've always wondered about fabs...

Each die shrink requires new equipment, right? Wouldn't it actually make sense in a way to build a new building with the new fab technique and rent out the old obsolete fab (which is still pretty darn good, let's be honest) to someone else?

beancounters probably computed that it wasn't worth it
they spend an awful amount of time trying to find ways to raise margins and/or raise income, and I'd be surprised if they hadn't considered it.

also, equipment isn't the only pricey thing in a fab. there are other subsystems and logistics to worry about when running a fab

 

[StrangerGuy]

Intel just can't beat Samsung making NAND.

Things like DDR3, audio DSPs or H264 decoding chips etc doesn't exactly need bleeding edge 22nm fabrication and I'm bet AMD/Nvidia ain't very keen on fabbing their latest and greatest on a iGPU competitor fab.