Are immigrants eroding our Constitution?

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: laFiera

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Trell
Most immigrants that I have seen that become US citizens actually have a much better understanding of what it is to be one, mostly due to the fact that they need to actually work to achieve it as opposed to being born into it.

Where I live I have had second and third generation American Hispanics routinely refer to me as "Americano" because I am white. They still see themselves and Mexican, prefer to call them selves Mexican first and identify themselves as Mexican vs American.

The fact is most immigrants coming in from south of the border only adapt to America when it suits their needs, their roots are far more important to them than the America way. They do not want to adapt, they do not want to give up where they came from for where they came to. They would much rather change where they came to, too be the same as where they came from and slowly but surely are.

Having lived in texas, this is so true; you meet people who were born in the usa generations ago, but they still call themselves mexicans; since I speak fluent spanish, I would speak to them in spanish, and beyond the normal, 'how are you, what's new', these people can't carry a full blown conversation in spanish, and thus I would make fun of them and tell them: "you can' t even speak spanish and you call yourself a mexican; you're a disgrace to mexico!" We laughed about it and like everybody else, these people are just wanting to have some type of identity. Having said all that, I agree with the other poster; americans have taken for granted what the constitution is; I would be surprised if the average american can recite more than 1 amendment. Everybody is too busy following paris hilton, or trying to see what's the latest football schedule; the constitution is being destroyed, and when I tell an american this, they say I'm crazy, and that this wouldn't happen in america...... too bad for them!

Funny because I could easily say that most white Texans I've know don't view themselves as Americans but as Texans first and Americans second. Then again how many white people are there going around calling themselve Irish-Americans, Russian-American, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Israeli Americans ? Then again not everyone who is Latino is Mexican !

In fact most Latinos who aren't Mexican could care less what most radical types especially those of Mexican origin have to say or believe because they are to busy working and trying to earn a honest living. Now being a 1st generation Latino immigrant who is not from Mexico I can tell you pretty much most of what I hear in this thread are just views based on inherent singular personal experiences that are more often not the norm or even remotely factual.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: LordSegan
I believe our government is out of control. They have blown the war on terror out of proportion and are using it to break/bend the law: illegal wiretaps, no-bid contracts, crony politics, etc. (Dems and Republicans, but mostly Reps).

I went to college in Los Angeles, and many of the students were Russian, Asian, Hispanic immigrants, first generation. Very few of them really "understand" what free speech is, or why we don't want unlimited government power.

Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

Really so who did you vote for in the last two elections? It is funny how you are so concerned about not wanting to give government unlimited powers when this administration and the GOP who wraps themselves in the American flag have pretty much done more to erode personal rights and more to undermine "American Freedoms" then immigrants. Nice scapegoating.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: LordSegan
I believe our government is out of control. They have blown the war on terror out of proportion and are using it to break/bend the law: illegal wiretaps, no-bid contracts, crony politics, etc. (Dems and Republicans, but mostly Reps).

I went to college in Los Angeles, and many of the students were Russian, Asian, Hispanic immigrants, first generation. Very few of them really "understand" what free speech is, or why we don't want unlimited government power.

Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

Really so who did you vote for in the last two elections? It is funny how you are so concerned about not wanting to give government unlimited powers when this administration and the GOP who wraps themselves in the American flag have pretty much done more to erode personal rights and more to undermine "American Freedoms" then immigrants. Nice scapegoating.

I voted for Dems in the last three elections.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Are immigrants eroding our Constitution?

No, the voters that elect the politicians responsible for passing legislation that erodes are constitution are, IMO of course.

No, neither immigrants (whether elgal or illegal) nor politicians can erode the Constitution.

The only place that happen is at the Supreme Court. They smack down bad laws written by our crappy polititions. Ultimately, any eroding is in their hands and no one elses.

Fern

Actually, as originally viewed by the founders, the FIRST line of defense of the Constitution was supposed the be the PRESIDENT.

The ORIGINAL reason for the veto was to give the president a chance to veto unconstitutional legislation.

Also, EVERY legislator has an oath to uphold our Constitution. And every single citizens should worry about it too.

It is exactly your attitude that its up to the Supremes that is hurting our country.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I believe our government is out of control. They have blown the war on terror out of proportion and are using it to break/bend the law: illegal wiretaps, no-bid contracts, crony politics, etc. (Dems and Republicans, but mostly Reps).

I went to college in Los Angeles, and many of the students were Russian, Asian, Hispanic immigrants, first generation. Very few of them really "understand" what free speech is, or why we don't want unlimited government power.

Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

Really so who did you vote for in the last two elections? It is funny how you are so concerned about not wanting to give government unlimited powers when this administration and the GOP who wraps themselves in the American flag have pretty much done more to erode personal rights and more to undermine "American Freedoms" then immigrants. Nice scapegoating.

I voted for Dems in the last three elections.

Even though you voted "Dem" you seem to be unable to understand who has the real power to undermine our "Freedoms".

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: tweaker2

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Trell
Most immigrants that I have seen that become US citizens actually have a much better understanding of what it is to be one, mostly due to the fact that they need to actually work to achieve it as opposed to being born into it.

Where I live I have had second and third generation American Hispanics routinely refer to me as "Americano" because I am white. They still see themselves and Mexican, prefer to call them selves Mexican first and identify themselves as Mexican vs American.

The fact is most immigrants coming in from south of the border only adapt to America when it suits their needs, their roots are far more important to them than the America way. They do not want to adapt, they do not want to give up where they came from for where they came to. They would much rather change where they came to, too be the same as where they came from and slowly but surely are.

seems to me that's exactly what the folks that landed at plymouth rock set out to do and accomplished in stunning fashion up to 1776 when we cobbled together our very own national identity. what goes around comes around eh?😉

I guess you could say North America is like a roller coaster ride, it started at the bottom, and it has now crested at its peak and is on its way back down.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: tweaker2

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Trell
Most immigrants that I have seen that become US citizens actually have a much better understanding of what it is to be one, mostly due to the fact that they need to actually work to achieve it as opposed to being born into it.

Where I live I have had second and third generation American Hispanics routinely refer to me as "Americano" because I am white. They still see themselves and Mexican, prefer to call them selves Mexican first and identify themselves as Mexican vs American.

The fact is most immigrants coming in from south of the border only adapt to America when it suits their needs, their roots are far more important to them than the America way. They do not want to adapt, they do not want to give up where they came from for where they came to. They would much rather change where they came to, too be the same as where they came from and slowly but surely are.

seems to me that's exactly what the folks that landed at plymouth rock set out to do and accomplished in stunning fashion up to 1776 when we cobbled together our very own national identity. what goes around comes around eh?😉

I guess you could say North America is like a roller coaster ride, it started at the bottom, and it has now crested at its peak and is on its way back down.

lol, g1 :thumbsup:

 

[The Yeti]

No, only the illegal ones. By the way, why do people always seem to whip out the "you're a racist" card whenever someone is against illegal immigration? It just seems like a lame cop out.

 

[imported_Baloo]

hmm, last I heard, it was the Bush-Cheny administration that was eroding the constitution. Don't see where immigrants have anything to do with it.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: Socio

I guess you could say North America is like a roller coaster ride, it started at the bottom, and it has now crested at its peak and is on its way back down.

Well, Mexico is a little iffy, but Canada is fine. :laugh:

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: The Yeti
No, only the illegal ones. By the way, why do people always seem to whip out the "you're a racist" card whenever someone is against illegal immigration? It just seems like a lame cop out.

Most people are against illegal immigration. But how many times do you hear someone talk about things they don't like about Mexicans, then say they're just talking about the "illegal" ones?

 

[Blain]

IMO...
Illegal immigrants from Mexico, Nicaragua, China or Denmark, etc. are all the same. The reasons they left their home counrties may be different, but they are illegal nonetheless.

Legal immigration is 100% fine with me.
I'll need SOMEONE working to pay MY SS benefits in the future. :laugh:

 

[FoBoT]

no, you must not know your history of immigration, we have had huge (based on % ratios) influxes in the past

to me , the difference and current problem is that it is all taking place outside the law. employers have gotten used to undercutting the system with illegals

ignoring the laws creates a climate of chaos

 

[BoberFett]

The immigrants I know and have known were great people who love living in America and love the freedom it historically stood for. I've got friends now and in the past who were from Chile, Nigeria, Kenya, Denmark, Malta and various other countries. They all have seemed to understand the constitution.

Illegal immigrants on the other hand come here and ignore our laws while overburdening our infrastructure and demanding their "rights".

So refine your statement in the thread title and I may agree with you. As it is, you just sound like a xenophobe.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

In the past immigrants would arrive and become part of the "melting pot", learning and adopting American values. However, today the influx is so large that we instead have a "salad bowl". People sneak into the country but retain the values and philosophies they held before. Without the philosophical foundation and values that are required for freedom, it's possible that the nation's Constitution could change or that it could be interpreted to give less freedom.

 

[Trell]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Trell
Most immigrants that I have seen that become US citizens actually have a much better understanding of what it is to be one, mostly due to the fact that they need to actually work to achieve it as opposed to being born into it.

Where I live I have had second and third generation American Hispanics routinely refer to me as "Americano" because I am white. They still see themselves and Mexican, prefer to call them selves Mexican first and identify themselves as Mexican vs American.

The fact is most immigrants coming in from south of the border only adapt to America when it suits their needs, their roots are far more important to them than the America way. They do not want to adapt, they do not want to give up where they came from for where they came to. They would much rather change where they came to, too be the same as where they came from and slowly but surely are.

You mean like all those groups who still consider themselves, Italian, German, Polish, Irish et. al.?

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: LordSegan
Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

Extremely. It's not that we couldn't teach and assimilate them before, it's that their sheer numbers are assimilating us now. We cannot teach them our way of life when by the tens of millions they own entire swaths of our country leaving a very small minority in their local town that are English speaking Americans.

Actually as as percentage of population, immigration numbers are about where they have always been.

Actually we usually averaged in the 200k range till the early 70s now it has grown into more than a million every year if you count illegals.

People said similar things about the Irish when they were coming here in droves. "They don't assimilate!" "They took 'r jebs!"

They didn?t come over in such large numbers and they were not breaking any laws.


It's all the same bullsh!t. The only change is the nationality of the average immigrant.

And the fact they don?t learn the language or need to for that matter. I don?t think any immigrant groups in the past tried to force there language on us.

Just today on the radio station KPFK90.7 I hear this guy telling illegals about not talking immigration officers, at the end of his speech he said ?This has been a Decolonization moment on KPFK". Also on my way to work driving by East LA College I see a Hispanic guy with a fake looking license plate in his rear window saying YBCITIZEN. All this in one day of living in wonderful Los Angeles.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: babylon5
I think Americans are the ones that are taking things for granted. We ended up with the messy countries today because of Americans, not immigrants.
American are the ones letting politicians run wild. If immigrants come to USA thru legal channels, there is no problem. They affirm our legal process. The
ones making a mockery of our laws are the illegal immigrants cutting in line of legal immigrants.

I agree, we can use scapegoats like immigrants but the bottom line is we elect these crooked politicians. And many many times we do it because these politicians help steal from the public coffers for our districts.

I mean, look at the transportation bill of 05 and all the pork barrel crap that really had nothing to do with transportation. 20 billion and counting from what I have read. Yet we elect these crooks and when they ask for a tax hike to cover the costs of actually getting something done like bridge repairs we ask how much can we give instead of asking why have you pissed away the first 25% of my income.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I don't think that immigrants can erode our Constitution, but the values of immigrants, and how they enter the melting pot, can have an impact on our core values of our society.

America was built on the backs of immigrants, and previous waves of immigrants did eventually embrace what we consider American values...and many of these immigrants came from cultures and nations that did not embrace concepts like free speech, due process, human rights, etc.

The problem at hand is illegal immigrations...as the grandson of immigrants, I have no problem with people of any nationality or culture coming to America in search of a better life...but we need to have an immigration process in place that supports these migrant workers, and provides them with a path to citizenship.

For any wave of immigrants to join the American melting pot, they have to first become American citizens...illegal immigrants exist in a void where they never learn to embrace that which makes this nation great.

You mean like all those groups who still consider themselves, Italian, German, Polish, Irish et. al.?

If you look back at the waves of immigrants from Europe, they retained their cultural identities, congregated together in communities, and even maintained their own language and way of life...it took two or three generations for these cultures to blend into American society, but they were able to do so by coming American citizens.

 

[MagicConch]

Originally posted by: LordSegan
I believe our government is out of control. They have blown the war on terror out of proportion and are using it to break/bend the law: illegal wiretaps, no-bid contracts, crony politics, etc. (Dems and Republicans, but mostly Reps).

I went to college in Los Angeles, and many of the students were Russian, Asian, Hispanic immigrants, first generation. Very few of them really "understand" what free speech is, or why we don't want unlimited government power.

Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

That is very interesting b/c I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but think very differently as to the cause. I would think the opposite, that local people take freedom for granted and hand it over so easily b/c they didn't work so hard to get it. If we are taking legal immigrants specifically, the process is exhaustive and usually instills if not requires a great appreciation of this country. Personally I think everyone should take immigrant test, I looked over the materials and I learned a lot.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: LordSegan

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Are immigrants eroding our Constitution?

No, the voters that elect the politicians responsible for passing legislation that erodes are constitution are, IMO of course.

No, neither immigrants (whether elgal or illegal) nor politicians can erode the Constitution.

The only place that happen is at the Supreme Court. They smack down bad laws written by our crappy polititions. Ultimately, any eroding is in their hands and no one elses.

Fern

Actually, as originally viewed by the founders, the FIRST line of defense of the Constitution was supposed the be the PRESIDENT.

The ORIGINAL reason for the veto was to give the president a chance to veto unconstitutional legislation.

Also, EVERY legislator has an oath to uphold our Constitution. And every single citizens should worry about it too.

It is exactly your attitude that its up to the Supremes that is hurting our country.

Quite early on in the history of this country the SCOTUS managed to assert itself, and thus become a very powerful branch.

While the Pres is to "uphold and defend" the Constitutional, no way around it - as the country has developed the SCOTUS has successfully established itself as the arbiter of the constitution ( or what is *Constitutional*).

Whatever the origins of the *veto*, having a Pres as the arbiter of what is or is not Constitutional is not a goof idea IMO. Such judgement will change from admin to admin and provide no meaningful precident as to Constitutional law. A changing precident is no good either, IMO.

Whatever legislators are supposed to do, the seperation of powers works, appropriately IMO, to make the SCOTUS the ultimate arbiter. But ultimately, legislators can only enact laws, not enforce them. Not even the Constitution (other than provide oversight of the Exec branch, with occaisional assistance from the judiciary)

-------------------------------------

Originally posted by: MadRat
The supremes could do a more effective job of protecting the US Constitution if they could review laws proactively and not have to wait for a good case to be presented to them.

They can do that, at least under some circumstances. IIRC, it was back in Andrew Jackson's day that they created this precident for themselves.

Otherwise, we have plenty of lawyers just dying to go before SCOTUS. We have also establised a lower court system where such issues are properely originated. The SCOTUS can step in when needed, and where needed (on certain aspects of an issue). I think all these levels of analysis and opinions are a good proceess - judicial review - helps ensure the issues are well-thought out. A kind of *quality control* process.

In event of emergency, the SCOTUS can step in quickly, as we have seen not too long ago (2000 elections).

Fern

 

[piasabird]

Slave Labor Class. Need I say more?

I get to a Chicago hotel for a convention and the cleaning staff do not even speak one word of english. They can not even comprehend the word sheet or bed or room. They should at least be required to know enough words to help the guests.

 

[daveshel]

No, the erosion comes from within, mainly in the name of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: LordSegan
Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

Extremely. It's not that we couldn't teach and assimilate them before, it's that their sheer numbers are assimilating us now. We cannot teach them our way of life when by the tens of millions they own entire swaths of our country leaving a very small minority in their local town that are English speaking Americans.

Actually as as percentage of population, immigration numbers are about where they have always been.

Actually we usually averaged in the 200k range till the early 70s now it has grown into more than a million every year if you count illegals.

People said similar things about the Irish when they were coming here in droves. "They don't assimilate!" "They took 'r jebs!"

They didn?t come over in such large numbers and they were not breaking any laws.


It's all the same bullsh!t. The only change is the nationality of the average immigrant.

And the fact they don?t learn the language or need to for that matter. I don?t think any immigrant groups in the past tried to force there language on us.

Just today on the radio station KPFK90.7 I hear this guy telling illegals about not talking immigration officers, at the end of his speech he said ?This has been a Decolonization moment on KPFK". Also on my way to work driving by East LA College I see a Hispanic guy with a fake looking license plate in his rear window saying YBCITIZEN. All this in one day of living in wonderful Los Angeles.

The Irish didn't break any laws and didn't come here in large numbers? Are you serious? Have you ever heard of the Irish mafia?

Here's a nice link from the Census Bureau on immigration numbers per 1000 Americans. The current numbers don't include illegals but even adding your 'million a year' (it's estimated to be half that) still puts it below levels it has been in the past.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: LordSegan
Does anyone else feel that one of the side effects of huge immigration is that our core values are being weakened?

Extremely. It's not that we couldn't teach and assimilate them before, it's that their sheer numbers are assimilating us now. We cannot teach them our way of life when by the tens of millions they own entire swaths of our country leaving a very small minority in their local town that are English speaking Americans.

Actually as as percentage of population, immigration numbers are about where they have always been.

Actually we usually averaged in the 200k range till the early 70s now it has grown into more than a million every year if you count illegals.
People said similar things about the Irish when they were coming here in droves. "They don't assimilate!" "They took 'r jebs!"

They didn?t come over in such large numbers and they were not breaking any laws.


It's all the same bullsh!t. The only change is the nationality of the average immigrant.

And the fact they don?t learn the language or need to for that matter. I don?t think any immigrant groups in the past tried to force there language on us.

Just today on the radio station KPFK90.7 I hear this guy telling illegals about not talking immigration officers, at the end of his speech he said ?This has been a Decolonization moment on KPFK". Also on my way to work driving by East LA College I see a Hispanic guy with a fake looking license plate in his rear window saying YBCITIZEN. All this in one day of living in wonderful Los Angeles.

The Irish didn't break any laws and didn't come here in large numbers? Are you serious? Have you ever heard of the Irish mafia?

Here's a nice link from the Census Bureau on immigration numbers per 1000 Americans. The current numbers don't include illegals but even adding your 'million a year' (it's estimated to be half that) still puts it below levels it has been in the past.

The Irish came mostly between 1845 and 1860 from the Great Potato Famine. There was only about 3 to 4 million Irish that immigrated here from 1820 to 1880. In 1841, there were 8,175,000 people in Ireland TOTAL so I am not sure were all the Irish came from. What does the Irish mafia have to do with anything as far as coming here illegally? The Mexican mafia is probably far worse.

Your link only goes from 1901-2001 and aside from a few jumps there were not that many people coming over, like I said an average of 200k look at your own data. If you want to go by the numbers there are twice as many illegals here now then all the Irish in Ireland 1841.