Are Atheists the most intolerent group of all?

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: ericlp
What do your expect from this OP, Go figure!

This isn't even news. This thread should be locked. Go discuss your own religion at church... We don't care how you feel about another faith. If you don't like it. Booo Hoo!

Just stirring the pot as usual. My religion is better then yours. Blah..Blah...Blah..... What a waste of time and bandwidth!

Troll of the forums award this one....

Your toupee fell off

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
I suppose you could, if you are sufficiently dishonest. As far as your two straw men are concerned, that's just more dishonesty. The issue is not participation, it's imposition. I'd also love to hear your spin on how there's any significant effort to restrict your religious freedom. I suspect what you're really talking about are a few, highly-publicized challenges to maintaining the separation of church and state, e.g, banning Nativities on public property. While you might be surprised to find I disagree with most such actions as petty and pointless, I do recognize they are Constitutionally sound and perhaps necessary to preempt a slide down a slippery slope. Nonetheless, I personally would prefer to see the Nativity/etc. opponents focus their efforts on more substantive issues. See my .sig.

[ ... ]

You claimed there are "a lot of Christ haters" in P&N. I believe your claim is preposterous -- empty whining by someone who wants to divert attention from the real, valid complaints about the behavior of certain "Christian" extremists. (Christianity could be a great force for good were it not so badly perverted by some of its self-proclaimed believers.) If you really believed truth is on your side, you could have presented examples supporting your claim. You did not. You chose instead to respond dishonestly, and I called you on it.

You are close re. my intolerance though. I don't have a problem with differing opinions ... if they are well-reasoned and supported by fact. I am not very tolerant of ignorance and evasion, however. For example, I have no respect for people who make ignorant claims they cannot support, then turn to evasion and misdirection rather than simply, honestly conceding their mistakes. I am also extremely intolerant of hypocrisy and dishonesty. I have an old-fashioned conviction that honesty and integrity are fundamental to one's character. It's one of the reasons I have so little respect for GWBush.

You claimed there are "a lot of Christ haters" in P&N. I believe your claim is preposterous -- empty whining by someone who wants to divert attention from the real, valid complaints about the behavior of certain "Christian" extremists. (Christianity could be a great force for good were it not so badly perverted by some of its self-proclaimed believers.) XYou did not. You chose instead to respond dishonestly, and I called you on it.

Boy you caught me there:roll:



If you really believed truth is on your side, you could have presented examples supporting your claim. You did not. You chose instead to respond dishonestly, and I called you on it.

Steeple's example of Christian terrorists at it again!! is an excellent example of it.
What you have is a man who was thouroughly bothered by the murdering of unborn children. He responded in an inappropriate and illegal way and he will legally pay the price for it. Nothing less nothing more. Steeples title suggests masses of Christian Jihadists terrorizing the land.
Such events seldom happen but when they do they are dealt with and rightly so.
I have probably attended over 100 different types of churches in my life and I have never heard this taught from the pulpit as something Christians shoud do.
But I am sure you will feel this is just more whining..your posts haven't shown much objectivity yet.

This is where you totally miss the point. You might be able to use this as an example of Steeple's disdain for Christians. I'll let him address that if he cares to. It simply does NOT in any way suggest a hatred for Christ, however. It just doesn't. You claimed a lot of people in P&N hate Christ, not that they dislike Christians. There's a world of difference between the two.

In the words of Mahatma Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I suppose you could, if you are sufficiently dishonest. As far as your two straw men are concerned, that's just more dishonesty
In your opinion.

Yet you declined to offer examples supporting your claim that someone is trying to restrict your religious freedoms vs. maintaining a proper separation of church and state as I believe. Oh well.

While you might be surprised to find I disagree with most such actions as petty and pointless
Yes, I would be, you are correct


I do recognize they are Constitutionally sound and perhaps necessary to preempt a slide down a slippery slope

Another opinion, which you certainly are entitled to as am I. And of course mine would be 180 degrees in opposition to that.

Now does either of our opinions mean that one is forcing the otheres down someone throat? Of course not, but I am sure some would say it does.

Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

I have an old-fashioned conviction that honesty and integrity are fundamental to one's character. It's one of the reasons I have so little respect for GWBush.

Desireable traits, take off the blinders though there are liars on both sides

Kindly show me where I suggested otherwise. While I find Bush especially and malignantly dishonest, I've repeatedly expressed my disgust with politicians in general.

Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

more opinion which you are certainly entitled to.
Let me explain the way a democracy works.
If more people believe your way, I have to accept something I disagree with.
If more people believe my way, you have to accept something you disagree with.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

more opinion which you are certainly entitled to.
Let me explain the way a democracy works.
If more people believe your way, I have to accept something I disagree with.
If more people believe my way, you have to accept something you disagree with.

No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.

Can I assume you are now acknowledging that I was right, that some "Christians" are trying to impose their personal beliefs on the rest of us? Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant.


Anyway, for the record, this is all a diversion from your original claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N. I noticed that you ignored this in your reply. Will you show the integrity to admit your allegation was false or not?



(Edit: On second thought, your very premise is backwards. I want to preserve others' rights. You want to take them away. America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

 

[datalink7]

As an Atheist (I suppose), I don't see it as a belief system. Here is sort of how I see it.

I don't go around actively disbelieving that we all have an invisible, incorporal, third appendage growing out of our back. I don't go around actively disbelieving in one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eaters. And I don't go around disbelieving in God. Having seen no evidence for any of the above, I simply don't believe. I don't think about them as I go about my daily life.

Atheism isn't really an ism. There are no tenants. No book. No model system of living. No rules, regulations, or gatherings. It isn't a belief system in reality, but more like a lack of a belief. You can't say "Atheists" (as a plurality) are intolerant or "what have Atheists" done for this country/world, as there is nothing to tie them together. One Atheist will be extremely different from another, where as, say, Christians have a common belief system and goals in life that guide them towards certain actions and principles.

Just my opinion.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: datalink7
As an Atheist (I suppose), I don't see it as a belief system. Here is sort of how I see it.

I don't go around actively disbelieving that we all have an invisible, incorporal, third appendage growing out of our back. I don't go around actively disbelieving in one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eaters. And I don't go around disbelieving in God. Having seen no evidence for any of the above, I simply don't believe. I don't think about them as I go about my daily life.

Atheism isn't really an ism. There are no tenants. No book. No model system of living. No rules, regulations, or gatherings. It isn't a belief system in reality, but more like a lack of a belief. You can't say "Atheists" (as a plurality) are intolerant or "what have Atheists" done for this country/world, as there is nothing to tie them together. One Atheist will be extremely different from another, where as, say, Christians have a common belief system and goals in life that guide them towards certain actions and principles.

Just my opinion.

Well stated

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: piasabird
What good have athiest ever done for this country?

It begs the question, how many atheist are scientists?

Einstein = atheist

From brain-boi himself:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "

Also.

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

It is not a superiority thing, smart people just tend to question more and find the norms of a society limiting to them.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

more opinion which you are certainly entitled to.
Let me explain the way a democracy works.
If more people believe your way, I have to accept something I disagree with.
If more people believe my way, you have to accept something you disagree with.

No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.
In this case your that special minority, you just haven't recognized it yet.


Can I assume you are now acknowledging that I was right, that some "Christians" are trying to impose their personal beliefs on the rest of us? Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant.

I think they have a desire to live in a country that more accurately reflects thier values and they work towards that end, the same as you.

Anyway, for the record, this is all a diversion from your original claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N. I noticed that you ignored this in your reply. Will you show the integrity to admit your allegation was false or not?

I provided you an example that inspired the thread. I guess you missed it.(Edit:

On second thought, your very premise is backwards. I want to preserve others' rights. You want to take them away. America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

speechless

 

[DealMonkey]

Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

My non-god can beat up your maybe god anyday.

Lets not go there and confuse the fairyfolk.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

My non-god can beat up your maybe god anyday.

Lets not go there and confuse the fairyfolk.

my real God can beat up your non-god which beat up his maybe-god.
And your already confused

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

more opinion which you are certainly entitled to.
Let me explain the way a democracy works.
If more people believe your way, I have to accept something I disagree with.
If more people believe my way, you have to accept something you disagree with.

No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.
In this case your that special minority, you just haven't recognized it yet.

So you keep suggesting, yet you still haven't provided a single example of how we are trying to take away your rights. On the other hand, I provided multiple examples of how you are trying to take away mine.

Can I assume you are now acknowledging that I was right, that some "Christians" are trying to impose their personal beliefs on the rest of us? Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant.

I think they have a desire to live in a country that more accurately reflects thier values and they work towards that end, the same as you.

On the contrary, I am not trying to take away others' rights. You are. That's a 180 degree difference.

Anyway, for the record, this is all a diversion from your original claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N. I noticed that you ignored this in your reply. Will you show the integrity to admit your allegation was false or not?

I provided you an example that inspired the thread. I guess you missed it.

Look again. I addressed it directly. It is simply NOT an example of even one person hating Christ, let alone "a lot". Do you have any valid examples that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N?

(Edit: On second thought, your very premise is backwards. I want to preserve others' rights. You want to take them away. America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

speechless

Because ... ?


By the way, you ignored this:

• "Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant."

Wanted to be sure you didn't miss it too.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

My non-god can beat up your maybe god anyday.

Lets not go there and confuse the fairyfolk.

OMG, LOL at your sig. Oh man.

But seriously, you're right - maybe the cop out is to be undecided? Oh man, the existential crisis of not having an organized religion tell me what to believe!

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

My non-god can beat up your maybe god anyday.

Lets not go there and confuse the fairyfolk.

OMG, LOL at your sig. Oh man.

But seriously, you're right - maybe the cop out is to be undecided? Oh man, the existential crisis of not having an organized religion tell me what to believe!

It is not a cop-out, it is hedging your bets, the difference is that one group has looked at the odds and decided the bets are off.

Ceiling cat haunts you!

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

Exactly. While I doubt there is a God, I certainly recognize it's possible. I cannot objectively prove there is no God any more than I can prove there is one. Indeed, there may be a dozen gods, or a thousand, or maybe in the Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land mold, "Thou art God," we are all god. Maybe The Force is God. Maybe there is one God with a thousand different faces, making all religions true. Who knows? Anything is possible.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

more opinion which you are certainly entitled to.
Let me explain the way a democracy works.
If more people believe your way, I have to accept something I disagree with.
If more people believe my way, you have to accept something you disagree with.

No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.
In this case your that special minority, you just haven't recognized it yet.

So you keep suggesting, yet you still haven't provided a single example of how we are trying to take away your rights. On the other hand, I provided multiple examples of how you are trying to take away mine.

Can I assume you are now acknowledging that I was right, that some "Christians" are trying to impose their personal beliefs on the rest of us? Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant.

I think they have a desire to live in a country that more accurately reflects thier values and they work towards that end, the same as you.

On the contrary, I am not trying to take away others' rights. You are. That's a 180 degree difference.

Anyway, for the record, this is all a diversion from your original claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N. I noticed that you ignored this in your reply. Will you show the integrity to admit your allegation was false or not?

I provided you an example that inspired the thread. I guess you missed it.

Look again. I addressed it directly. It is simply NOT an example of even one person hating Christ, let alone "a lot". Do you have any valid examples that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N?

(Edit: On second thought, your very premise is backwards. I want to preserve others' rights. You want to take them away. America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

speechless

Because ... ?

You couldn't be farther from the truth. But I'm glad to know that you know me and my motives better then I do.
It must be wonderful to be so enlightened.

By the way, you ignored this:

• "Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant."

Wanted to be sure you didn't miss it too.

I didnt ignore it, I merely answered the 2 part question as a whole
Beyond what I have already told you, the only advice I would offer is render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and unto God what is Gods.
I'll let you look it up


I did miss this somehow though:

This is where you totally miss the point. You might be able to use this as an example of Steeple's disdain for Christians. I'll let him address that if he cares to. It simply does NOT in any way suggest a hatred for Christ, however. It just doesn't. You claimed a lot of people in P&N hate Christ, not that they dislike Christians. There's a world of difference between the two.

In the words of Mahatma Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Thats a copout if I ever heard one....I think you not only miss the point your avoiding the point.
Keep trying to portray yourself as an objective person however.

 

[judasmachine]

this is one of the most absurd things i've heard. once again you have fanatics on both sides. there are many intolerant atheists, as there are many equally intolerant theists. if anyone thinks otherwise they don't have their eyes open.

 

[LtPage1]

Atheists are tolerant by necesity- there are a hell of a lot less of them around, so they kinda have to be.

And I can't remember the last time anyone was killed by an atheist because of religion.
Anyway, this is a stupid question. Some people are idiots, no matter what their creed.

 

[homercles337]

Reading through this thread all i can think is, "Daniel youre a dope. Drop it."

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Well, at least the atheists won't try to use the law to force their religion down anyone's throat. It isn't atheists who go around bombing abortion clinics. As far as I know, it isn't the atheists who want to make pornography and marijuana illegal. As far as I know, it isn't the atheists who want to ban certain books.

As far as I know, it isn't the atheists who joyfully believe in a Stalin-like or Hitler-like god that will torture you for all eternity for refusing to believe in it.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.

In this case your that special minority, you just haven't recognized it yet.

So you keep suggesting, yet you still haven't provided a single example of how we are trying to take away your rights. On the other hand, I provided multiple examples of how you are trying to take away mine.

I note that you again decline to provide any examples of how we are trying to take away your rights, even though you keep insinuating that we are.

[ ... ]

(Edit: On second thought, your very premise is backwards. [- 1 -] I want to preserve others' rights. [- 2 -] You want to take them away. [- 3 -] America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. [- 4 -] Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

speechless

Because ... ?

You couldn't be farther from the truth. But I'm glad to know that you know me and my motives better then I do.
It must be wonderful to be so enlightened.

Speaking of cop-outs. It's easy to throw out empty, blanket denials. How about offering something concrete you can support with evidence? What did I say that is wrong? Let's look at it point by point:

1. You continue to evade providing any examples of how we are trying to take away your rights.
   
2. You've already conceded you want to take away others' rights (but excused it as wanting to live in a country that reflects their values).
   
3. Are you claiming America was NOT founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, that this is not what the Bill of Rights is all about? If so, what is your version of the story?
   
4. Are you claiming that attempting to take away others' rights is Christian and is consistent with America's democratic principles? If so, say so, and support your claim with something substantive.

Since I "couldn't be farther from the truth", you should have no trouble providing specific, factual evidence supporting your denial.

[/b]By the way, you ignored this:

• "Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant."

Wanted to be sure you didn't miss it too.

I didnt ignore it, I merely answered the 2 part question as a whole
Beyond what I have already told you, the only advice I would offer is render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and unto God what is Gods.
I'll let you look it up

I'm familiar with the quote. It seems to me it is far more supportive of my premise than yours. That's OK, you're off the hook. They were rhetorical questions. I know you cannot support either with scripture. The simple fact is, the self-proclaimed "Christian" forces who lobby to impose their faith on all of us via the government are NOT following anything Jesus taught. The simple fact is, Jesus would be appalled at the church as big business. That blatant hypocrisy drives a lot of people away from Christianity.

I did miss this somehow though:

This is where you totally miss the point. You might be able to use this as an example of Steeple's disdain for Christians. I'll let him address that if he cares to. It simply does NOT in any way suggest a hatred for Christ, however. It just doesn't. You claimed a lot of people in P&N hate Christ, not that they dislike Christians. There's a world of difference between the two.

In the words of Mahatma Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Thats a copout if I ever heard one....I think you not only miss the point your avoiding the point.
Keep trying to portray yourself as an objective person however.

I'm sorry, but it's really simple. Do you stand by your words or not? Do you still claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" in P&N or not? If so, you have yet to provide even one example. If not, if you're now backpedaling from your words, stop dancing and be up-front about it. Show the integrity to admit your outrageous accusation was wrong instead of trying to pretend you didn't make it. Demonstrate some of those Christian values.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Nor did I suggest such things constitute forcing one's faith down others' throats. In fact, I suggested the contrary when I referred to such examples as petty and pointless. I'm talking about far more insidious and damaging impostion of religious dogma, for example abortion, gay marriage, abstinence-only education (very irresponsible and counter-productive), intelligent design and other attacks on science, censorship, etc. Those are cases where religious zealots are trying to impose their views on all of America, and even other parts of the world with abortion.

That is what I object to. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't restrict my rights based on your beliefs. If you don't believe in abortions, that's cool, don't have one. As it happens, I don't like abortions either, but I accept the fact that I do NOT have the right to impose that belief on others. Similarly, when I don't like what I see on TV, I take responsibility for myself and change the channel. I don't lobby the FCC to impose my idiosyncrasies on everyone else.

more opinion which you are certainly entitled to.
Let me explain the way a democracy works.
If more people believe your way, I have to accept something I disagree with.
If more people believe my way, you have to accept something you disagree with.

No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.
In this case your that special minority, you just haven't recognized it yet.

So you keep suggesting, yet you still haven't provided a single example of how we are trying to take away your rights. On the other hand, I provided multiple examples of how you are trying to take away mine.

Can I assume you are now acknowledging that I was right, that some "Christians" are trying to impose their personal beliefs on the rest of us? Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant.

I think they have a desire to live in a country that more accurately reflects thier values and they work towards that end, the same as you.

On the contrary, I am not trying to take away others' rights. You are. That's a 180 degree difference.

Anyway, for the record, this is all a diversion from your original claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N. I noticed that you ignored this in your reply. Will you show the integrity to admit your allegation was false or not?

I provided you an example that inspired the thread. I guess you missed it.

Look again. I addressed it directly. It is simply NOT an example of even one person hating Christ, let alone "a lot". Do you have any valid examples that there are "a lot of Christ haters" on P&N?

(Edit: On second thought, your very premise is backwards. I want to preserve others' rights. You want to take them away. America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

speechless

Because ... ?

You couldn't be farther from the truth. But I'm glad to know that you know me and my motives better then I do.
It must be wonderful to be so enlightened.

By the way, you ignored this:

• "Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant."

Wanted to be sure you didn't miss it too.

I didnt ignore it, I merely answered the 2 part question as a whole
Beyond what I have already told you, the only advice I would offer is render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and unto God what is Gods.
I'll let you look it up


I did miss this somehow though:

This is where you totally miss the point. You might be able to use this as an example of Steeple's disdain for Christians. I'll let him address that if he cares to. It simply does NOT in any way suggest a hatred for Christ, however. It just doesn't. You claimed a lot of people in P&N hate Christ, not that they dislike Christians. There's a world of difference between the two.

In the words of Mahatma Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Thats a copout if I ever heard one....I think you not only miss the point your avoiding the point.
Keep trying to portray yourself as an objective person however.

Haha, you just skipped over his challenges again. Don't make accusations without being able to back yourself up.

 

[kage69]

If he can pick and choose which portions of his bible to consider, then by gum he can do the same with this forum I suppose. Doesn't help his argument in the least, but hey at least he's consistant in his hypocrisy.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
No, that's how a democracy is supposed to work. In practice, democracy can be perverted by special interests with deep pockets or by a tiny but passionate minority intent on imposing their views on others. Some of the "Christian" extremists meet both criteria. That's one of the reasons they are so offensive to the rest of us. They are not satisifed with proportional representation. They work to impose their minority views on the rest of us, which is what I complained about from the very beginning.

In this case your that special minority, you just haven't recognized it yet.

So you keep suggesting, yet you still haven't provided a single example of how we are trying to take away your rights. On the other hand, I provided multiple examples of how you are trying to take away mine.

I note that you again decline to provide any examples of how we are trying to take away your rights, even though you keep insinuating that we are.

[ ... ]

(Edit: On second thought, your very premise is backwards. [- 1 -] I want to preserve others' rights. [- 2 -] You want to take them away. [- 3 -] America was founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, specifically on protecting minorities' rights from the tyranny of the majority. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. [- 4 -] Your position is both un-Christian and un-American.)

speechless

Because ... ?

You couldn't be farther from the truth. But I'm glad to know that you know me and my motives better then I do.
It must be wonderful to be so enlightened.

Speaking of cop-outs. It's easy to throw out empty, blanket denials. How about offering something concrete you can support with evidence? What did I say that is wrong? Let's look at it point by point:

1. You continue to evade providing any examples of how we are trying to take away your rights.
   
2. You've already conceded you want to take away others' rights (but excused it as wanting to live in a country that reflects their values).
   
3. Are you claiming America was NOT founded on the principle of protecting citizens' rights, that this is not what the Bill of Rights is all about? If so, what is your version of the story?
   
4. Are you claiming that attempting to take away others' rights is Christian and is consistent with America's democratic principles? If so, say so, and support your claim with something substantive.

Since I "couldn't be farther from the truth", you should have no trouble providing specific, factual evidence supporting your denial.

[/b]By the way, you ignored this:

• "Care to show us how Christ ever supported the imposition of faith on a population by the state, or even His support for the church as big business? Based on my memory of the New Testament, He would find both concepts repugnant."

Wanted to be sure you didn't miss it too.

I didnt ignore it, I merely answered the 2 part question as a whole
Beyond what I have already told you, the only advice I would offer is render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and unto God what is Gods.
I'll let you look it up

I'm familiar with the quote. It seems to me it is far more supportive of my premise than yours. That's OK, you're off the hook. They were rhetorical questions. I know you cannot support either with scripture. The simple fact is, the self-proclaimed "Christian" forces who lobby to impose their faith on all of us via the government are NOT following anything Jesus taught. The simple fact is, Jesus would be appalled at the church as big business. That blatant hypocrisy drives a lot of people away from Christianity.

I did miss this somehow though:

This is where you totally miss the point. You might be able to use this as an example of Steeple's disdain for Christians. I'll let him address that if he cares to. It simply does NOT in any way suggest a hatred for Christ, however. It just doesn't. You claimed a lot of people in P&N hate Christ, not that they dislike Christians. There's a world of difference between the two.

In the words of Mahatma Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Thats a copout if I ever heard one....I think you not only miss the point your avoiding the point.
Keep trying to portray yourself as an objective person however.

I'm sorry, but it's really simple. Do you stand by your words or not? Do you still claim that there are "a lot of Christ haters" in P&N or not? If so, you have yet to provide even one example. If not, if you're now backpedaling from your words, stop dancing and be up-front about it. Show the integrity to admit your outrageous accusation was wrong instead of trying to pretend you didn't make it. Demonstrate some of those Christian values.

Since you already admitted its not christ haters but christian haters with your little jig and dance...I think you have proved my point for me.
Other then that your tact seems to be to dismiss outright every attempt to explain anything.
Frankly I am kind of bored with your feigned objectivity and have seen a few atheists make good points in here that I believe were of value.

Yours were not among them, and I feel I have wasted enough time with you.

I'm off to get legislation approved so that you can only agree with my posts from here on out.
That is my goal to control your life right?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: LtPage1
Atheists are tolerant by necesity- there are a hell of a lot less of them around, so they kinda have to be.

And I can't remember the last time anyone was killed by an atheist because of religion.
Anyway, this is a stupid question. Some people are idiots, no matter what their creed.

That made me laugh.

 

[LcarsSystem]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Agnostics are the sh!t because their minds are open enough to consider the possibility of God, while not copping out and taking the easy path by just picking some random religion or believing that there is definitely no God. Beliving that there is no God is just as much an act of faith as believing that there is one.

My non-god can beat up your maybe god anyday.

Lets not go there and confuse the fairyfolk.

my real God can beat up your non-god which beat up his maybe-god.
And your already confused

Yes, but at least my maybe-god is gramatically correct.