Are 200 year old quotes still applicable?

[StageLeft]

How would you change a "God given right" by an amendment? You cannot!

Of course you can. WHere in the bible does it say "You have the right to bear arms"? There is nothing "God given" about these rights. God didn't state them as factual. Everything is varying degrees of interpretation. The word God was thrown on the front for effect, if nothing else. I'm not saying they are worthless or insignificant, but things can and should be changed. Where were these so called God-given rights 300 years ago? They were not there because the people who made them were not there. THey are not more God-given or definite than any other right a society proclaims.

 

[Lucky]

<< The bible is a couple of thousand yrs old.
Anything in there worth reading? >>




Good point. I'd like to see some rebuttals to this.

 

[Tominator]

Skoorb

You have just proven my point! You REALLY need to go back and read some history...then come back and admit just how ignorant your statement is..

 

[StageLeft]

The bible is a good guideline and promotes, in most cases (not all), good morals. It is a good textbook and starting point to develop from, but it is not totally applicable to all people. Things change. The only sure things in life are death, taxes, and change!

You have just proven my point! You REALLY need to go back and read some history...then come back and admit just how ignorant your statement is..

Its ok, just find me the place in the bible where God says you have a right to bear arms and I'll bow down

My only point is: Anything created by people can be changed by people.

 

[Lucky]

The bible is a good guideline and promotes, in most cases (not all), good morals. It is a good textbook and starting point to develop from, but it is not totally applicable to all people.


I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, in many instances, its not. It's still used as a platform for christians to attack and denounce homosexuality.

 

[desy]

Ok I threw that out there so I'll defend it.
The bible for all its flaws is a histroy book and describes human nature pretty well.
Seven dealy sins etc which are still as true to today as they were then. Most of our current laws and priciples are based on biblical justice.
When it comes to war the bible tell you unless you destroy ALL of your enemy, they will continue to resurface time and again, hmmm aren't we finding that to be the truth?
So if you don't think you can glean anything from the bible you aren't paying attention.

 

[StageLeft]

It's still used as a platform for christians to attack and denounce homosexuality.

Precisely what I had in mind with the (not all) comment

 

[Sir Fredrick]

I believe the quote is actually "Those who sacrifice freedom for security gain neither". Which I believe is true. Power corrupts, absolutely. Any long term or permanent sacrifice in freedom for security is going to result in a reduction of freedom AND security.
We may have great intentions now, but that does not mean that our sacrifices will not be abused in the future.

 

[Amused]

<< Over the last month I've heard various quotes from our founding fathers being thrown around. The one that sticks in my mind is one that is supposably from Ben Franklin. It says something along the lines of "Those that sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither".

Yes, it sounds patriotic, and true to the meaning of freedom, but I guess I don't think that it can really be applied today as it was intended 200+ years ago. In the time of the Revolutionary war, countries couldn't level entire cities with the dropping of one bomb. We didn't have suicide terrorist flying airplanes into skyscrapers. We didn't have biological and chemical weapons that could wipe out entire populations.

Times are different. War has evolved into an entirely different thing. We no longer form ranks and shoot each other and those who have the most men standing afterwards win. It's just not the same.

I do appreciate their sayings, and do note their philosphy, but I don't believe that they are followed as simply as a lot of people would like them to be. I offer no solutions, I simply ask that people THINK about WHEN the quotes were said, and then THINK about how times are NOW. >>



"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[sarcasm]Yes, we can use time to denounce wisdom

Hell no. The human race has not evolved, and technology cannot change our base needs, fears, or desires. We no less deserve to be free today, than we did 200 years ago. Leaders are no less likey to become tyrants than they were 200 years ago.

Your fears are exactly what Franklin was speaking of. You want the security of the womb, and you're willing to hand your freedom over to other men in a vain attempt to obtain it. You expect cradle to grave security, but I bet you want to keep your basic human rights, too. Man is entirely too corrupt for that. This has been proven time and time again. The more control men have over you, the more likely they are to abuse that control.

Our government's main responsibility is to provide for a common defense. But not at the expense of our freedom. That is NOT too much to ask, and those who deny it can be done are simplistic at best, dangerous at worst.

 

[StageLeft]

While I agree with most of what Amused just said - and for the record I think the founding fathers were pretty slick - we have already lost some freedom. Many of us no longer have freedom from fear. Stepping up security is one way of taking away some freedom, while giving more. Its not a simple inverse correlational relationship that security is the opposite of freedom.

 

[Amused]

<< While I agree with most of what Amused just said - and for the record I think the founding fathers were pretty slick - we have already lost some freedom. Many of us no longer have freedom from fear. Stepping up security is one way of taking away some freedom, while giving more. Its not a simple inverse correlational relationship that security is the opposite of freedom. >>



With freedom comes risk. NO WHERE in the Constitution or Bill of Rights are you guaranteed the right to be free from fear. However, we can eliminate the fear, without taking away freedoms. There is no reason to punish the American public for the actions of terrorists, just as there is no reason to punish the majority for the actions of the criminal minority.

You cannot stop crime or terrorism by restricting the rights and freedoms of common, law abiding American citizens. Even the most oppressive countries on earth suffer from terrorism and crime. In fact, I'd say they suffer from it far more than we do.

To put it simply, you don't protect the majority students from the schoolyard bully by locking everyone else up, and allowing the bully to roam free. It fails every time.

 

[vi edit]

After hearing the entire quote that Amused One listed, I do retract some of my ideas. Much of the quotes power was lost through various paraphrases, and I apologize for not looking up the entire thing.

But I still feel as Skoorb in that freedom is not always decreased as security is increased. I also do beleive that time can deteriorate the validity of old sayings. As I said earlier, I don't say this about ALL quotes. It's just that I feel that some of them can not be interpreted and appreciated as much now, as when they were written.

 

[Amused]

<< After hearing the entire quote that Amused One listed, I do retract some of my ideas. Much of the quotes power was lost through various paraphrases, and I apologize for not looking up the entire thing.

But I still feel as Skoorb in that freedom is not always decreased as security is increased. I also do beleive that time can deteriorate the validity of old sayings. As I said earlier, I don't say this about ALL quotes. It's just that I feel that some of them can not be interpreted and appreciated as much now, as when they were written. >>



I'm sorry, but I still disagree. Until man has evolved signifigantly, the human condition now is no different than it was back then. Man is still corrupt, people are still individuals, and freedom still prospers over oppression.

 

[desy]

Yep
Cause of this I am one step closer to having a Bar code or chip implanted in my body 'For security'
If you don't recognize this you don't understand gov'ts. Why do you think the NRA lobbies so hard against ANY form of gun control its not what is being proposed that is so offensive its what the next step and so on will be.

 

[FriedToast]

I wholeheartedly agree w/ Amused and thank him for beating me to the punch so I didn't have to write up a big essay like that

Skoorb, I have to disagree on one of your points.

<< Many of us no longer have freedom from fear. Stepping up security is one way of taking away some freedom, while giving more >>

We only had freedom from fear due to ignorance. We've never been safe in airlines. That was a perceived safety. Nothing much has changed. The WTC/Pentagon attack was not the first instance of airliners being hijacked/destroyed. Merely the first done within our borders. I think that's a basic premise that many ppl are not realizing. I do believe that we're safer now due to increased security, but I'm not willing to go much further than that as I already believe that security is on the edge of being too much.

I, for one, am willing to step on an airliner today and take a trip. I have no fear about that. Perhaps that's because I started out flying w/ the concept that, like anything else, danger is inevitable. Anytime I fly anywhere, anytime I drive anywhere, anytime I walk anywhere I'm in danger. For each instance, it's a constant reassessment of what's involved and what dangers there are. For me, it's just one more risk that I take. Add to that the fact that I'm willing to fight in the air for my freedom. If my life is in danger, then I'm going to try to minimize that. If I end up dying doing so, then so be it. But that's a risk I take.

B. Franklin's quote may be 200 years old, but I believe that it's every bit as valid today as it was when it was uttered 200 yrs ago. And who says that he thought it up? He might be quoting someone else who stated it 2000 yrs ago. We might never know. But it's worth thinking about.

 

[StageLeft]

Well I think its still easy to argue that we've developed in more ways than technology alone and political and social change has been significant, but at the same time i'll admit I'm not so sure that these changes undermine the fact that humankind obviously have not evolved (not in 200 years) and human nature is more similar than different, so perhaps the quotes are still totally accurate.

Friedtoast Ignorance is bliss You're right, we lived without fear due to ignorance, but then ignorance pervades much of society anyway. I'll admit I will be a tiny bit aprehensive flying later this year but that won't prevent me from doing it and I know that the chances of my dying on a plane are still infinitely small.

 

[Amused]

<< Well I think its still easy to argue that we've developed in more ways than technology alone and political and social change has been significant, but at the same time i'll admit I'm not so sure that these changes undermine the fact that humankind obviously have not evolved (not in 200 years) and human nature is more similar than different, so perhaps the quotes are still totally accurate.

Friedtoast Ignorance is bliss You're right, we lived without fear due to ignorance, but then ignorance pervades much of society anyway. I'll admit I will be a tiny bit aprehensive flying later this year but that won't prevent me from doing it and I know that the chances of my dying on a plane are still infinitely small. >>



Skoorb, this may just be because you're now agreeing with us (or maybe it's just the beer talking ), but I gotta say that I fully respect a person who can admit they might have been mistaken. It's a virtue that sometime evades me, but I strive for it

 

[Tominator]

<< Its ok, just find me the place in the bible where God says you have a right to bear arms and I'll bow down >>



Go and read the many historical documents regarding the wording of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The Founders did not just make something up! Their intent was VERY clear! Man CANNOT give or take away what God has given.....so using your warped reasoning, we can never be 'Free' because it isn't covered in the Bible....