Arabs offer Israel ultimatum to accept peace proposal

[imported_Shivetya]

Fake Peace

Typical and a repeat of their previous proposals. Basically Israel has to give back land from the 67 War, they gave back more than the size of the remaining land already to Egypt, and then allow for all the DESCENDANTS of those who fled hoping Israel would be destroyed in 48 to return.

In other words, a dumb deal that plays well with the anti-jew bigots that make up the middle east and some western countries.

Look, when did we start requiring countries to give up lands gained in war? Let alone wars from 30+ years ago? The only that happens is when the loser has to give up lands. Usually its done to punish them or take back land they took during the war. Well Israel didn't lose any land, they gained it because of bad tactics and cooperation of her attackers.

As for the right of return crowd, get real, most of them are gone and the majority left on their own accord because of promises that Israel would be destroyed.

I love their concern for Palestine, something they never had when they controlled some of the very lands in question. Always forgetting they killed more Palestinians in the last 60 years than Israel ever did.

Maybe they can get the UN Human Rights Council to demand Israel accept the conditions? Or is that "UN Hamas Rights Council"?

 

[Jaskalas]

They offer correct terms, which in other words read: Surrender or die. Our response in kind is LONG over due, and is the only answer to the war in the Middle East. They know how to win wars, they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Israel has been had a few too many times by good faith peace efforts with the Palestinians. You can not negotiate with a government that doesnt have control of it's territories, because any one of the autonomous militant groups can unilaterally violate the peace deal. The brokered peace deal with Lebanon is also a sham. Iran can start that war up again on a whim. Israel doesnt have the luxury of the feel good bullsh!t most of the world espouses when trying to broker a peace deal. They have come to understand long ago how to deal with the Palestenians in a manner they understand. Blow yourself up in a cafe...we'll bulldoze your families house. Seems barbaric to us, but then again war is just something we see on TV. We dont worry about our children getting blown when they get on the school bus. The world supported giving the land back...what happened....they mounted attacks from that land. The world condemned building the wall...what happened...it pretty much stopped suicide attacks. Israel tells the world, and the UN to fvck off for good reason. Feel good policies are a luxury of people with oceans protecting them from their enemies.

 

[Czar]

its a good deal apart from the refugee part

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
They offer correct terms, which in other words read: Surrender or die. Our response in kind is LONG over due, and is the only answer to the war in the Middle East. They know how to win wars, they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet.

Are you speaking of Arab nations knowing how to win wars? If so you are SO wrong, and probably just don't know it.

The Arab nations have an insanely bad track record in modern warfare. It?s a cultural problem, I highly recommend you read the following if you believe that the Arab countries know how to win wars.
Why Arabs Lose Wars

Leadership may be the greatest weakness of Arab training systems. [A] sergeant first class in the U.S. Army has as much authority as a colonel in an Arab army. . . . A veteran of the Pentagon turf wars will feel like a kindergartner when he encounters the rivalries that exist in the Arab military headquarters

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
They offer correct terms, which in other words read: Surrender or die. Our response in kind is LONG over due, and is the only answer to the war in the Middle East. They know how to win wars, they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet.

Are you speaking of Arab nations knowing how to win wars? If so you are SO wrong, and probably just don't know it.

The Arab nations have an insanely bad track record in modern warfare. It?s a cultural problem, I highly recommend you read the following if you believe that the Arab countries know how to win wars.
Why Arabs Lose Wars

Leadership may be the greatest weakness of Arab training systems. [A] sergeant first class in the U.S. Army has as much authority as a colonel in an Arab army. . . . A veteran of the Pentagon turf wars will feel like a kindergartner when he encounters the rivalries that exist in the Arab military headquarters

I admit they have in-fighting to overcome, but don?t we all?

You need to look at their ideology. Its sheer will that they have over us, and eventually they will obtain nuclear weapons and no longer be incapable. When bolding my statement, you specifically left out ?they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet?.

That is what I believe. While we are the superior force today, we do not have the desire to maintain that and we will lose that status. If they are so weak John, then why does the global war on terror still continue, why have we not won yet?

I propose that the stratagem of terrorism is a natural counter to our superior force, and unless we make use of our force then we truly are in jeopardy.

Never underestimate your opponent, or their supporters.

 

[johnnobts]

haven't had much success in warfare since the ottoman empire. i can't believe you guys are defending israel though. haven't you read jimmy carter's book, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid." he makes it very clear Israel is to blame. Think he dedicates the book to Achmidinijad.

 

[johnnobts]

If they are so weak John, then why does the global war on terror still continue, why have we not won yet?

I propose that the stratagem of terrorism is a natural counter to our superior force, and unless we make use of our force then we truly are in jeopardy.

Never underestimate your opponent, or their supporters.
_________________________

He's talking about nations going to war, not terrorist cells targeting non-combatants.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
They offer correct terms, which in other words read: Surrender or die. Our response in kind is LONG over due, and is the only answer to the war in the Middle East. They know how to win wars, they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet.

Are you speaking of Arab nations knowing how to win wars? If so you are SO wrong, and probably just don't know it.

The Arab nations have an insanely bad track record in modern warfare. It?s a cultural problem, I highly recommend you read the following if you believe that the Arab countries know how to win wars.
Why Arabs Lose Wars

Leadership may be the greatest weakness of Arab training systems. [A] sergeant first class in the U.S. Army has as much authority as a colonel in an Arab army. . . . A veteran of the Pentagon turf wars will feel like a kindergartner when he encounters the rivalries that exist in the Arab military headquarters

I admit they have in-fighting to overcome, but don?t we all?

You need to look at their ideology. Its sheer will that they have over us, and eventually they will obtain nuclear weapons and no longer be incapable. When bolding my statement, you specifically left out ?they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet?.

That is what I believe. While we are the superior force today, we do not have the desire to maintain that and we will lose that status. If they are so weak John, then why does the global war on terror still continue, why have we not won yet?

I propose that the stratagem of terrorism is a natural counter to our superior force, and unless we make use of our force then we truly are in jeopardy.

Never underestimate your opponent, or their supporters.

Much of what you say is true.
However, in modern times combined Arab armies with overwhelming military superiority, both in numbers and in technology have been soundly beaten by an inferior and much smaller Israel. I believe one of the reasons for that is precisely because they did not underestimate them, and I think that they don't underestimate them today either. Their survival depends on it.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
They offer correct terms, which in other words read: Surrender or die. Our response in kind is LONG over due, and is the only answer to the war in the Middle East. They know how to win wars, they just don?t have the capability or superiority... yet.

Surrender or die seems to be appearing in a lot of your posts lately. Why am I so inclined to agree with you?

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: johnnobts
If they are so weak John, then why does the global war on terror still continue, why have we not won yet?

I propose that the stratagem of terrorism is a natural counter to our superior force, and unless we make use of our force then we truly are in jeopardy.

Never underestimate your opponent, or their supporters.
_________________________

He's talking about nations going to war, not terrorist cells targeting non-combatants.

The only way for our professional army to combat the insurgent style of warfare that arab armies practice is through overwhelming force, which would cause great hardship to the civilian population and infrastructure. Our sensibilities prevent us from doing this, therefore we cannot win these types of conflicts. Luckily, insurgencies only work when you can blend with the culture, so we have nothing to worry about on the homefront. France and England on the other hand....

 

[Moonbeam]

It is a psychological truth, often not well perceived, that people will unconsciously create whatever it is that they fear. They will manifest those factors that insure that what they fear will happen. The spouse who fears being left will drive the mate away, the preacher who fears sex will sleep with somebody's wife, and on and on and on. When a people fear extermination by others they will act in a way as to bring it about.

Everywhere humanity is walking backward into what they fear.

Only the therapist can help you turn around to walk consciously into your fear.

Everything we fear has already happened.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The Arab nations have an insanely bad track record in modern warfare. It?s a cultural problem, I highly recommend you read the following if you believe that the Arab countries know how to win wars.
Why Arabs Lose Wars

Until they lost to Hezbollah

 

[Lemon law]

I agree wth non-Prof John when he states Israel has the present military hegemony in spades. Which will prevent aggression by rational neighboring states---buts its useless against terrorists. So, as it was pointed out, Israel simply retailates against the families of the now dead suicide bomber. Which is actually illegal under international law---and was indeed exactly the crime Saddam was convicted under. And now Saddam has paid that hangmans forfeit.

But how do you retaliate against the family of someone who pegs rockets at you from neighboring countries? Even when its not the policy of that neighboring country. So terrorists have at least one effective tactic to use against Israeli military hegemony and are likely to acquire more in future.

And also note one of the demands is the right to return---the very issue many declared a dead issue when I posted last summer that it still drove the conflict. And I also note the other demand--return of land by right of conquest also has traction because the UN position is that land won by right of conquest is not legitimate.

Israel would be presently stupid to accept such terms as written---but they are stupider still to take the position that Israeli military hegemony will keep them safe forever. In MHO Israel can start some realistic negotiations and do much to prove they can be a good neighbor in the mid-east. But taking the position that they are the 800 pound gorilla that can sleep wherever they choose may leave them in the position of the stupid gorilla that tried to get a good nights sleep on top of an anthill.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Fake Peace

Typical and a repeat of their previous proposals. Basically Israel has to give back land from the 67 War, they gave back more than the size of the remaining land already to Egypt, and then allow for all the DESCENDANTS of those who fled hoping Israel would be destroyed in 48 to return.

In other words, a dumb deal that plays well with the anti-jew bigots that make up the middle east and some western countries.

Look, when did we start requiring countries to give up lands gained in war? Let alone wars from 30+ years ago? The only that happens is when the loser has to give up lands. Usually its done to punish them or take back land they took during the war. Well Israel didn't lose any land, they gained it because of bad tactics and cooperation of her attackers.

As for the right of return crowd, get real, most of them are gone and the majority left on their own accord because of promises that Israel would be destroyed.

I love their concern for Palestine, something they never had when they controlled some of the very lands in question. Always forgetting they killed more Palestinians in the last 60 years than Israel ever did.

Maybe they can get the UN Human Rights Council to demand Israel accept the conditions? Or is that "UN Hamas Rights Council"?

Who is requiring that Israel accept this offer? It's just what the Arabs want, not what they are going to get. Just like Israelis want the Palestinians to vacate the West Bank and make room for their settlements. They won't get that either. The deal will be somewhere in between what Israelis and Palestinians want.
It's like selling a used car. I overprice it by a grand, because I know you are going to lowball me. Then you come in and offer me a grand below fair value, and then we settle for where the market value of the car is. You have to ask for more than you are willing to accept, otherwise you'll get less.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I agree wth non-Prof John when he states Israel has the present military hegemony in spades. Which will prevent aggression by rational neighboring states---buts its useless against terrorists. So, as it was pointed out, Israel simply retailates against the families of the now dead suicide bomber. Which is actually illegal under international law---and was indeed exactly the crime Saddam was convicted under. And now Saddam has paid that hangmans forfeit.

But how do you retaliate against the family of someone who pegs rockets at you from neighboring countries? Even when its not the policy of that neighboring country. So terrorists have at least one effective tactic to use against Israeli military hegemony and are likely to acquire more in future.

And also note one of the demands is the right to return---the very issue many declared a dead issue when I posted last summer that it still drove the conflict. And I also note the other demand--return of land by right of conquest also has traction because the UN position is that land won by right of conquest is not legitimate.

Israel would be presently stupid to accept such terms as written---but they are stupider still to take the position that Israeli military hegemony will keep them safe forever. In MHO Israel can start some realistic negotiations and do much to prove they can be a good neighbor in the mid-east. But taking the position that they are the 800 pound gorilla that can sleep wherever they choose may leave them in the position of the stupid gorilla that tried to get a good nights sleep on top of an anthill.

Dealing with Egypt, Jordan, and hell even Syria in a peaceful manner works, because they have pretty much complete control over their territories. This isnt the case with Lebanon and Palestine. You cannot bring one party from these territories to the table and have a meaningful agreement with them, because there are parties within their borders that are beyond their control. Negotiation is impossible under those conditions. There is no peace between Israel and Lebanon at the moment, just a temporary calm. Iran can end that calm any moment they wish, and the international community will once again try to slap a bandaid on it rather than getting at the root of the problem.

 

[Fern]

This proposal is dead in the water, a waste of time and insult to most people's intellgence.

The proposal is old, and has already been rejected. What's the point? Lame excuse for another intifada?

"The entire region will be under renewed threats of war, explosions, as well as regional and international confrontations, as a result of the absence of a solution or the impossibility of implementing one."

Fern

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Fern
This proposal is dead in the water, a waste of time and insult to most people's intellgence.

The proposal is old, and has already been rejected. What's the point? Lame excuse for another intifada?

"The entire region will be under renewed threats of war, explosions, as well as regional and international confrontations, as a result of the absence of a solution or the impossibility of implementing one."

Fern

Precisely the feelings of the other side about any Israeli solution.

 

[magomago]

Wow so everyone runs in and somehow interprets this as "surrender or die".

However - realistically Israel will not accept this because it does not want to give up any of the land it has taken. When 1967 borders already gives Israel 78% of the land, leaving the Palestinians with only 22% of the land, its clear what Israel wants ~ and it isn't a peace solution that benefits both sides.

This plans talks about full normalization - something people on BOTH sides should want.

Return to 1967 borders should be a no brainer . Aside from the separation of the West Bank and Gaza, there should be FULL territorial continuity; Israel's prior plans [especially the guilded offer by Ehud Barak to Arafat that many like to bring up] effectively call for a partitioning of the lands amongst the Israeli Military such that it forces all the land to become under defacto protectorship.

Several of you call this plan a "surrender or die" without even bothering to actually understand what is being PROPROSED. This isn't saying "give us all the land and go back to Europe and other Arab Countries where you guys came from" This is saying "Let the Palestinians have the 22% of the land without of this B.S. and we will have full diplomatic recognition of you and full normalization without any B.S.".

This is precisely why Israel is not interested in quick and easy solutions: much like a simple flat tax provides no loop holes for rich to go through, a simple and fast solution to this Palestinian question is NOT in the Israeli Government's interest because they are interested in as much land grabbing as possible and the longer delayed the peace process is, the easier it is to keep on taking land.

Perhaps issues like Jerusalem can be discussed (however it doesn't even seem their government would be willing for a type of International City status; clearly though if Israel insists on keeping West Jerusalem for itself, then Palestinians also will insist on their claim to east Jerusalem) , and perhaps proper compensation of Palestinians whose homes were inside Israel (giving a pass to the racist idea of a "pure Jewish state" where as a people we would never accept elsewhere - but let us not digress further along this as it could deserve a 100 threads on its own) for the current value of their land and home; I'm sure knowing how much our government is butt buddies with Israel we'd probably end up footing that bill ~ but for peace it is one load of debt I wouldn't mind taking on.

 

[Jhhnn]

Wait until you see the Israeli counteroffer- they'll keep the west bank, golan, shebaa farms, toss out the rest of the pals and israeli arabs, if they get southern lebanon, and a yearly cash stipend, too... and only if the deal includes an israeli controlled security zone on the east bank of the Jordan... along with complete disarmament of every muslim country from morocco to indonesia...

That includes some major concessions from the Israelis- but they're willing to risk their security in the interest of peace, honest...

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Wait until you see the Israeli counteroffer- they'll keep the west bank, golan, shebaa farms, toss out the rest of the pals and israeli arabs, if they get southern lebanon, and a yearly cash stipend, too... and only if the deal includes an israeli controlled security zone on the east bank of the Jordan... along with complete disarmament of every muslim country from morocco to indonesia...

That includes some major concessions from the Israelis- but they're willing to risk their security in the interest of peace, honest...

How about Hamas get dismantled, Syria backs off Lebanon and Palestinians/Hezbollah actually honors the borders with regard to shooting munitions.

Should that actually be done and enforced, Israel should be willing to trust the Arabs.

At this point, the Arabs as an unit have shown that they will not honor their own words.

 

[magomago]

Hamas as a movement stems specifically from the lack of a Palestinian State. As of right now we have no idea what they would actually transform into given the criterion.

What does Syria and Lebanon ultimately have to do with Israel? Syria simply is trying to control Lebanon - I don't see what the hell that deal with Israel?

At this point, the Israelis as a unit have shown that they only honor their own words when it comes to technicalities; they speak of how pulling out of Gaza produced nothing but headaches, yet they are entirely mute when it comes from the daily harassment by planes and a six month embargo on the territory.

Now with that aside - both sides don't have much credibility to begin with...

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The Arab nations have an insanely bad track record in modern warfare. It?s a cultural problem, I highly recommend you read the following if you believe that the Arab countries know how to win wars.
Why Arabs Lose Wars

Until they lost to Hezbollah

so what history books have you been reading......
Israel didn`t lose at all......sheese

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: magomago
Hamas as a movement stems specifically from the lack of a Palestinian State. As of right now we have no idea what they would actually transform into given the criterion.

What does Syria and Lebanon ultimately have to do with Israel? Syria simply is trying to control Lebanon - I don't see what the hell that deal with Israel?

At this point, the Israelis as a unit have shown that they only honor their own words when it comes to technicalities; they speak of how pulling out of Gaza produced nothing but headaches, yet they are entirely mute when it comes from the daily harassment by planes and a six month embargo on the territory.

Now with that aside - both sides don't have much credibility to begin with...

Syria and Lebanon are both part of the Arab coalition.
Syria is supporting Hezbollah and causing trouble in Lebanon.
Lebanon may be turning an blind eye toward Hezbollah.

From Israel's viewpoint, if the Arab countries/groups are willing to show that they can stop the hostilities, then Israel can feel safe is proceding with a working solution like they have with Jordan and Egypt.

As has been shown before, the Arab countries have attempted to destroy Israel all the while offering the peace branch. Until this attitude is changed, Israel is not going to lower its shields.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The Arab nations have an insanely bad track record in modern warfare. It?s a cultural problem, I highly recommend you read the following if you believe that the Arab countries know how to win wars.
Why Arabs Lose Wars

Until they lost to Hezbollah

True. Israeli superiority in the region has been severely affected/dented after the war with Hezbollah.