Apple sued by DOJ and 16 states for abusing Monopoly power

[Kaido]

I'm not sure why you are using worldwide market share of phones since we are talking about the US market. The US DOJ does not have control of the world market, they examine monopoly power here in the US. They are suing Apple here in the US, not globally. Those worldwide numbers are totally irrelevant.

Microsoft and Google have been sued by the DOJ - Microsoft in 2000 and Google more recently. I realize you are trying to defend Apple here because you like their control and listing off these other companies like they are getting away scot-free - but you are using the wrong information.

The fact is Apple has abused it's market share of the smartphone industry and consumers have overpaid and missed out on features. I don't know why you want to support that, but you do you.

Oh yeah, that's a good point for worldwide vs. US marketshare.

I mean honestly, there's a lot of garbage Android stuff out there. I like that Apple controls stuff to keep cohesion across the board. The user experience is reliable because it's single-sourced hardware & operating system software. I'd hate to see that simplicity & reliability watered down with third-party offerings. Plus, it's not like consumers don't have a choice about what to buy...there are plenty of both amazing & crappy Android devices available on the market!

 

[MrSquished]

Oh yeah, that's a good point for worldwide vs. US marketshare.

I mean honestly, there's a lot of garbage Android stuff out there. I like that Apple controls stuff to keep cohesion across the board. The user experience is reliable because it's single-sourced hardware & operating system software. I'd hate to see that simplicity & reliability watered down with third-party offerings. Plus, it's not like consumers don't have a choice about what to buy...there are plenty of both amazing & crappy Android devices available on the market

I fail to see how Apple can't offer well-integrated products while also not abusing monopoly power. I mean that just sounds made up. I also find it disappointing you would support practices by mega corporations that are terribly anti-consumer because you are a fanboy of a company's products.

 

[manly]

The Verge has some early analysis:

‘Even stronger’ than imagined: DOJ’s sweeping Apple lawsuit draws expert praise

An uphill battle lies ahead, but the Justice Department has opened with a strong, strategically sound attack.

www.theverge.com

Oh yeah, that's a good point for worldwide vs. US marketshare.

I mean honestly, there's a lot of garbage Android stuff out there. I like that Apple controls stuff to keep cohesion across the board. The user experience is reliable because it's single-sourced hardware & operating system software. I'd hate to see that simplicity & reliability watered down with third-party offerings. Plus, it's not like consumers don't have a choice about what to buy...there are plenty of both amazing & crappy Android devices available on the market!

Straw man? Nobody is saying anything about running iPhoneOS on non-Apple hardware. I doubt this suit would have even been filed if Apple had done just a few things differently: support RCS even if they don't fully bridge it with iMessage; support right to repair for all of their devices; allow app sideloading like it's done on macOS (strongly discouraged by OS design but the user can decide).

Let's be real honest though; @Kaido is like most consumers, and UX is all that matters. They don't care what Apple's margins are, what the market cap is, or how consumers are being charged higher prices within a walled garden. But a great UX doesn't require total control of the entire product stack. Although I don't daily drive with it, Windows 10 does fine running on all kinds of hardware from garbage up to HEDTs (ironically Win11's pervasive tracking and ads is a regression). Although servers are typically headless, Linux drives nearly all of the Internet's compute services and is rock-solid "reliable." And Android is famously a big, custom layer on top of the Linux kernel running on all kinds of commodity hardware.

Apple no longer has a monopoly on great UX, although their scheme has been extremely profitable and makes their maintenance lives much easier. The burden for the DoJ is proving Apple's actions were illegal and harmful to consumers. Based on history going back 25 years, I doubt anything major will come out of this lawsuit. I'd like to see a consent decree that prohibits Apple from some of its worst abuses. But are they behaving worse than Google's 90% search monopoly, Amazon's dominance of e-commerce or Meta's overall shittyness? Probably not. If you zoom out and look globally, smartphones are extremely competitive even though the only big winners are Apple and Google.

 

[Kaido]

I fail to see how Apple can't offer well-integrated products while also not abusing monopoly power. I mean that just sounds made up. I also find it disappointing you would support practices by mega corporations that are terribly anti-consumer because you are a fanboy of a company's products.

I dunno if it's fanboyism, as much as the reality of how things work in practice. I have to live with supporting these things 7 days a week at work. I don't support Androids anymore professionally because the security story is a nightmare. I tell people at home to use Malwarebytes & Glasswire for Android to improve their security profile for their mobile devices. So many of the devices out there are absolute garbage...cheap tablets, budget Android phones, terrible-quality smartwatches. One fun statistic is that "47.15% of all devices that are found to infected with at least one form of malware are Android mobile phones":

Insurance Insights & Tips | Worth Insurance Experts

Explore stories, insights, and expert advice to help you choose the perfect insurance for your lifestyle, wherever you are in the world.

www.worthinsurance.com

Because Apple controls the hardware (iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch) & the operating system (iOS & iPadOS), you get a consistent, secure experience across all devices. I can't guarantee that on Android equipment for my users.

 

[Kaido]

The Verge has some early analysis

A good quote from that article:

To understand whether this market share actually gives Apple dominance that it can wield in ways that exclude rivals, the government will need to show that Apple is able to increase prices or degrade quality without losing customers — something you’d expect to happen if customers are able to freely choose the best option out there. “The question is whether users will opt out, can they opt out?” Kwoka says. “Will they opt out for degradation of service? And I think, much like the Google case, I think there probably will be evidence of ways that Apple has limited or compromised some service quality without losing anybody at all.” This would go toward showing Apple’s ability to exercise market power.

 

[Kaido]

support right to repair for all of their devices

This is a big one. Louis Rossmann is one of my favorite Youtubers on this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/@rossmanngroup/videos

He's had quite the journey:

One Man’s Fight for the Right to Repair Broken MacBooks - Columbia News Service

He started as just 'a random person ranting at a camera for therapy.'

columbianewsservice.com

Apple has traditionally had some pretty harsh practices:

https://archive.ph/gIptS

A historical policy from 5 years ago:

Apple's new moonshot plan is to make iPhones and computers entirely out of recycled materials by putting pressure on the recycling industry to innovate. But documents obtained by Motherboard using Freedom of Information requests show that Apple's current practices prevent recyclers from doing the most environmentally friendly thing they could do: Salvage phones and computers from the scrap heap.

Apple rejects current industry best practices by forcing the recyclers it works with to shred iPhones and MacBooks so they cannot be repaired or reused—instead, they are turned into tiny shards of metal and glass.

"Materials are manually and mechanically disassembled and shredded into commodity-sized fractions of metals, plastics, and glass," John Yeider, Apple's recycling program manager, wrote under a heading called "Takeback Program Report" in a 2013 report to Michigan Department of Environmental Quality. "All hard drives are shredded in confetti-sized pieces. The pieces are then sorted into commodities grade materials. After sorting, the materials are sold and used for production stock in new products. No reuse. No parts harvesting. No resale."

I understand Apple not wanting counterfeit parts flooding the market & diminishing their brand name, but then we run into the same problem as other tightly-controlled ecosystems from Tesla, John Deer, etc. Things are slowly starting to get better due to legal pressure:

John Deere Finally Relents on Right to Repair

For the first time, it will provide the tools needed to service its sophisticated modern tractors to farmers and independent repair facilities.

www.extremetech.com

Tesla and Rivian signed a right-to-repair pact. Repair advocates are skeptical.

Despite a “landmark” agreement, automakers and the repair industry are still fighting over who controls car data.

grist.org

Hell freezes over as Apple supports right-to-repair bill

As California legislation nears finish line, Apple suddenly switches sides.

arstechnica.com

Although they sure don't mind stifling the process:

MacBook self-repair program highlights Apple’s flawed repairability progress

Apple’s more amenable to self-repairs, but complex processes and designs are limiting.

arstechnica.com

This doesn't help either:

This is on top of Apple making many products that are inherently not user-upgradeable, sometimes in the name of potential performance gains or improved experiences. Things like soldered-down NAND chips, proprietary screws, and components that are only sold to Apple-authorized repair stores continue to limit how much customers and third-party repair shops can do on their own.

Getting into that dystopian corporate-overload future of late-stage capitalism at this point lol

 

[Kaido]

support RCS even if they don't fully bridge it with iMessage

Exactly! My take on this is:

1. Apple should support a globally-supported RCS standard

2. Apple should offer a paid iMessage option for Android users who want iOS platform inter-operability & Apple-specific features

Last year, Apple announced that RCS is coming to iOS in 2024:

Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year - 9to5Mac

In a surprising move, Apple has announced today that it will adopt the RCS (Rich Communication Services) messaging standard. The...

9to5mac.com

However, they're doing it to the GSMA standard, not Google's version, which I think is the right approach:

Later next year, we will be adding support for RCS Universal Profile, the standard as currently published by the GSM Association. We believe RCS Universal Profile will offer a better interoperability experience when compared to SMS or MMS. This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.

This is good because then Apple can contribute to improving a global standard, not a custom Google standard. SMS/MMS is horribly outdated; RCS works over cellular & wi-fi, as it should. The RCS implementation would include higher-quality multimedia, typing indicators, and read receipts. Apple's contribution to the global, non-Google standard also includes things like the ability to share their location inside of text threads, which should also be standard in a modern, cross-platform messaging application. The pettiness of current inter-operability issues is ridiculous given the technology available.

The reality is that iMessage is a private service that (1) costs money to operate, and (2) offers better security protection than RCS currently does, which includes Advanced Data Protection:

Apple debuts Advanced Data Protection with end-to-end encryption for more iCloud data

Apple today has announced a dramatic expansion of end-to-end encryption for its various cloud services. Called Advanced Data Protection, this...

9to5mac.com

So:

1. Build a global RCS standard that all phones can support

2. Offer an option for a paid iMessage app service for Android users, which would include the upgraded end-to-end encryption in Advanced Data Protection, all current iMessage features, a non-garbage version of Facetime for Android (native, not invitation-based), online backup & restoration of all messages, etc.

I think that's a pretty good compromise: you have to play nice on a global scale with everyone for valid features that should be "standard rights", but can still protect your custom implementation as a service experience IF the end user opts in.

 

[Kaido]

allow app sideloading like it's done on macOS (strongly discouraged by OS design but the user can decide).

This is a really, really tricky one due to security concerns. On one hand, a lot of my favorite apps on my Quest VR headset are side-loaded games & programs, so you get both creativity & the freedom to use your hardware as desired. On the other hand, one of the biggest draws of the Apple ecosystem is security, privacy, and vetted apps, so opening up your secure system to non-secure entities kind of defeats the point of that lol. Apple makes some good points in this PDF:

https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Building_a_Trusted_Ecosystem_for_Millions_of_Apps_A_Threat_Analysis_of_Sideloading.pdf

Currently, legal sideloading is only available in Europe (and is blocked via VPN). I'm of two minds about this...on one hand, I like the option of doing what you want on your own device; on the other hand, it opens up some very serious security concerns. However:

1. It's up to the consumer to use side-loaded app stores & apps, so they're using their freedom of choice to engage in using third-party programs (note that the legal third-party stores in the EU still get scanned for malware by Apple)
2. You can still use an MDM for corporate devices to achieve granular control, so for secure operations that require locking down devices, that third-party allowance really applies more to personal or BYOD

Apple still has some control, however:

Apple is bringing sideloading and alternate app stores to the iPhone

Ahead of the DMA coming into force in March.

www.theverge.com

Here’s how the new “alternative app marketplaces,” as Apple called them, will work. Users in the EU and on iOS 17.4 will be able to download a marketplace from that marketplace’s website. In order to be used on an iPhone, those marketplaces have to go through Apple’s approval process, and once you download one, you have to explicitly give it permission to download apps to your device. But once the marketplace is approved and on your device, you can download anything you want — including apps that violate App Store guidelines. You can even set a non-App Store marketplace as the default on your device.

Developers, meanwhile, can choose whether to use Apple’s payment services and in-app purchases or integrate a third-party system for payments without paying an additional fee to Apple. If the developer wants to stick with Apple’s existing in-app payment system, there’s an additional 3 percent processing fee.

Apple still plans to keep a close eye on the app distribution process. All apps must be “notarized” by Apple, and distribution through third-party marketplaces is still managed by Apple’s systems. Developers will only be allowed to distribute a single version of their app across different app stores, and they’ll still have to abide by some basic platform requirements, like getting scanned for malware.

At the end of the day:

1. You should have access options to your device the way YOU want; you should also have the "right to repair"
2. This is a personal consumer choice that users have to choose to opt into if they want third-party access; at least this particular implementation still has some security features (app notarization & malware scanning, in particular)

As far as financial monopolization goes...the Apple App Store ecosystem generated $1.1 trillion dollars in 2022 alone:

$1.1 trillion generated in App Store ecosystem in 2022

The App Store ecosystem facilitated $1.1 trillion in developer billings and sales in 2022, an independent study by Analysis Group found.

www.apple.com

Although more than 90% of the billing & sales went straight to developers (with no commission paid to Apple). However, that's really part of the big focus of the lawsuit:

Under Pressure: Antitrust and Competition Authorities are Now Focusing on Apple | TechPolicy.Press

Megan Kirkwood discusses the intense regulatory scrutiny Apple is now facing. Do the DOJ and European Commission actions signal a new era of antitrust enforcement?

www.techpolicy.press

The Department of Justice and 16 state attorneys general sued Apple, alleging the company “has used its power over app distribution on the iPhone to thwart innovations that would have made it easier for consumers to switch phones,” Leah Nylen and Samuel Stolton reported for Bloomberg.

We'll see how it goes...there are a lot of aspects of Apple's ecosystem that create a good, secure environment for consumers, but also some lawyer-protected aspects that are strongly in need of improvement. Software-driven market competition can be....difficult to track the impact of:

Apple further contends that over eight years of various investigations, the Commission has not been able to prove either consumer harm or“a viable theory explaining how Apple has thwarted competition in a market that is so clearly thriving.” Rather, Apple argues “[t]he reality is that European consumers have more choices than ever,” and “ronically, in the name of competition, [the Commission’s] decision just cements the dominant position of a successful European company that is the digital music market’s runaway leader.”

Actual footage of Apple's legal team in the ring:

 

[Kaido]

Apple lost any spark of real innovation with Jobs. They've just been coasting.

I think this is hard because, I mean...what else are you going to add to a phone? Samsung did some nifty features like a foldable screen & a round-face watch, which are pretty cool, but not deal-breakers for most people. I'm VERY curious about Apple's future with smartphones...the iPhone 15 is a pretty incredible device, but not much has really changed outside of iterative improvements in the last few generations. The ARM-based Macbooks are pretty great. The Apple VR headset is...weird. No support for Steam games, costs an arm & a leg, and I don't know what it's really for. I was by an Apple Store last night & almost went in to try out the headset, but I couldn't really justify going in to play with it because I have no idea what I'd use it for haha. The self-driving electric Apple Car was apparently recently cancelled:

Apple Car: Apple's Now-Canceled Car Project: What We Know

Hundreds of Apple employees were working on developing an Apple-branded car aimed at consumers, but the project has ended.

www.macrumors.com

It's difficult because Apple is a hardware company & I don't know where they're going to go next with their device offerings. I have an iPhone 11 right now, which I only upgraded to from an iPhone 8 because I broke my 8 & needed a new one. I have a 12.9" iPad Pro with the Apple Pen v2.0, which I use for everything, and I can't really think of anything I would add to it...it has a monster 2TB SSD & 5G cellular for mobile data access, so I'm covered space-wise for my various multi-media projects (2D vector & raster, 3D CGI, CAD, etc.), educational tasks, and work requirements. Short of maybe a holographic interface, I dunno what they'll really be able to offer in the future to people who have working devices & don't need an upgrade outside of filling up space, breaking them on accident, or just wanting the latest & greatest gadgets.

Their smarthome stuff is slowly improving, but consumers in general don't seem overly interested in it. I used to do smarthome installation stuff & in my current rental, I just use Alexa (no Crestron or Control4 equipment required!) with various tidbits (outlet control, lighting control, door lock control, etc.) because the current implementation of Siri is not too great. Supposedly Siri is going to get some AI improvements in iOS 18 & Apple obviously wants to get into the AI space:

Apple's Launching A Futuristic Siri And Apple-Based Artificial Intelligence As It Looks To Take On Microsoft's AI Dominance

Apple Inc. is constantly looking for new and innovative ways to spend its $73 billion war chest. From the Vision Pro to the Apple Car, it's rolling out new products and producing the next generation of consumer technology. Last week, it was reported that its decade-long Apple Car project is...

finance.yahoo.com

So software & service-wise, I think this is one area where Apple has the potential to grow...they've always been good at making stable, reliable, secure, easy-to-use consumer product offerings, so if they can find a way to combine AI with their ecosystem & make it attractive to consumers to use, I think that's one big way they could bridge the AI-to-consumer gap right now. But as far as hardware innovation goes...I don't know the future, but I just don't know what game-changing features they could add to their existing hardware lineup, you know? It's kind of like the Instant Pot...some pots are going on like 10 years old now & are still working flawlessly...and the Instant Pot brand recently went bankrupt. Not saying that correlation is causation, but pretty much everyone who wants one has one now & they work really well to the point where I've only had to buy a new one when I dropped & broke one of them lol.

I really don't know what else Apple could offer at this point hardware-wise without coming out with new lines. Maybe robotics? AI & software-driven assistive devices for people with disabilities? NVIDIA is using the Vision Pro to access Omniverse, which is their "virtual gym" for AI robotics training:

NVIDIA Unveils Project Gr00t for Robotic AI, Apple Vision Pro Integration - Decrypt

CEO Jensen Huang showed off the "very, very big" Blackwell AI GPU and real-world AI use cases from Mercedes and Siemens.

decrypt.co

The Vision Pro has been used for robotic control at MIT as well:

App Allows Apple Vision Pro to Precisely Control Robots

There is now an app that allows someone wearing the new Apple Vision Pro headset to control a robot using hand and head motions.

www.tomorrowsworldtoday.com

Teleoperation of robots is one of the rabbit holes I'm currently interested in, REALLY neat stuff with a variety of practical applications:

Apple Vision Pro to track human movement precisely, trains robots

Apple Vision Pro is a new virtual/augmented reality (VR/AR) device that opens new possibilities for the teleoperation of robots.

interestingengineering.com

Getting into some fun end-uses now:

WHATCHA GOT UP YOUR SLEEVE, APPLE?

 

[MrSquished]

I dunno if it's fanboyism, as much as the reality of how things work in practice. I have to live with supporting these things 7 days a week at work. I don't support Androids anymore professionally because the security story is a nightmare. I tell people at home to use Malwarebytes & Glasswire for Android to improve their security profile for their mobile devices. So many of the devices out there are absolute garbage...cheap tablets, budget Android phones, terrible-quality smartwatches. One fun statistic is that "47.15% of all devices that are found to infected with at least one form of malware are Android mobile phones":

Insurance Insights & Tips | Worth Insurance Experts

Explore stories, insights, and expert advice to help you choose the perfect insurance for your lifestyle, wherever you are in the world.

www.worthinsurance.com

Because Apple controls the hardware (iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch) & the operating system (iOS & iPadOS), you get a consistent, secure experience across all devices. I can't guarantee that on Android equipment for my users.

What it sounds like you're saying here is you don't mind if a company abuses its market share with anti-consumer practices because you feel it makes your job easier. Is that kind of what you mean?

Regardless, how do you think Apple being forced to abandon certain Monopoly power abuses is going to affect this whole issue for you exactly?

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I think we'll end up in a similar situation as the EU where Apple needs to allow 3rd party storefronts/side loading/etc on their hardware and ensure everything isn't just a reskin of their core OS components (like how every browser on iOS was just Safari under the hood for a long time).

Ultimately, 99.9% of apple users will just stick with the native apps and store, while regulators will get to pat themselves on the back.

I am absolutely convinced stuff like this comes down the mountain well after behaviors and practices are so deeply entrenched and most of the money to be made has been made.

 

[Kaido]

What it sounds like you're saying here is you don't mind if a company abuses its market share with anti-consumer practices because you feel it makes your job easier. Is that kind of what you mean?

Regardless, how do you think Apple being forced to abandon certain Monopoly power abuses is going to affect this whole issue for you exactly?

I don't think we need to get that black & white about it; it doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" approach to both a government-intervention solution or the discussion here. It's entirely possible to both hold a company accountable for monopolistic practices & creating meaningful change that doesn't get diffused in practice while also preserving the integrity of the hardware, software, and service products.

On the European ruling, I think that introducing a third-party app store on Apple's secure platform is a pretty dumb idea. People can already jailbreak iPhones to sideload apps if they really want to go out of their way to do it, at which point they're already willing to accept the security risks associated with doing so. The whole process is WIP right now:

Sideloaded iPhone malware is back on the table, and you can blame the European Commission

Malware is a risk in Europe now that sideloading apps is possible on iPhone, especially if the EC will stop Apple from notarizing apps.

bgr.com

But it turns out the EC is really determined to extract more concessions from Apple, including the removal of the notarization process for apps distributed through thrid-party sources. Rather than Apple aiding with malware prevention, it’ll be the EC’s job to ensure that users are safe. Apparently, that’s one of the conclusions from an Apple DMA Workshop that the EC held.

...

Here’s the detail concerning app notarization:

Interesting detail: the EC told Apple that they aren’t allowed to notarize apps to protect users. So “government authorities are the ones that are going to have to step up to protect” app developers and users from the risks of these 3rd-party apps.

What happens in the US remains to be seen...

 

[manly]

I think we'll end up in a similar situation as the EU where Apple needs to allow 3rd party storefronts/side loading/etc on their hardware and ensure everything isn't just a reskin of their core OS components (like how every browser on iOS was just Safari under the hood for a long time).

Ultimately, 99.9% of apple users will just stick with the native apps and store, while regulators will get to pat themselves on the back.

I am absolutely convinced stuff like this comes down the mountain well after behaviors and practices are so deeply entrenched and most of the money to be made has been made.

Exactly, only nerds and emulators care about sideloading apps. The vast, vast majority of consumers will never know otherwise. I've been using Android since 2011, and I can't remember the last time I sideloaded an app from outside of the Play store.

However, it's certainly anti-competitive to prevent competition with the default apps and to insist on taking a revenue cut of every app through the only App(le) Store.

I disagree that most of the money has already been made; Apple's net profit in FY2023 was $114B. Conservatively, we're talking about $0.5T of net profit over the next decade. Their growth story has probably ended for good, but we're not yet at an inflection point where "something else" replaces smartphones en masse. I don't think it's gonna be Apple Vision Pro.

One thing I'd add about Apple is they compete in the various devices segments; even if DoJ is right that they have 2/3 of U.S. smartphone market share, it was around half just a few years ago. It's not like the old, unassailable Windows monopoly or present Google search monopoly where there's zero effort involved. As Dubya famously weighed in on the Microsoft antitrust case that DoJ won, why do you want to knock down a successful American business? In this case, do you want to punish Apple if it just benefits Google and the Chinese OEMs? In that case, I sure don't.

This is a really, really tricky one due to security concerns.

How so? Traditionally macOS allowed you to install any app you wanted to. Gatekeeper was put in a long ass time ago to limit that unless the user opts out. Is there an epidemic of malware on macOS that I don't know about?

I think most ISVs still choose to publish through the Mac App Store rather than otherwise. It's just a few outliers like Epic Games that grouse at the ridiculous 30% cut on super-large hits. And why does Netflix get a special exemption as a "reader app?" It's all arbitrary rent-seeking nonsense.

 

[Kaido]

How so? Traditionally macOS allowed you to install any app you wanted to. Gatekeeper was put in a long time ago to limit that unless the user opts out. Is there an epidemic of malware on macOS that I don't know about?

I think most ISVs still choose to publish through the Mac App Store rather than otherwise. It's just a few outliers like Epic Games that grouse at the ridiculous 30% cut on super-large hits. And why does Netflix get a special exemption as a "reader app?" It's all arbitrary rent-seeking nonsense.

Different risk levels due to access & privacy. The data collection on mobile devices is absolutely astounding. The European Commission is even fighting Apple on simply doing malware scans on third-party store apps. If you choose to bypass Apple's sandbox on a jailbroken iPhone, then you risk those apps having unfettered access to your photos, messages, and other data. At least with the EU third-party iOS app stores, Apple could prevent privacy invasions with those apps within their security infrastructure. At that point, in theory, it would be just like a Mac running OSX with Gatekeeper, where you're free to authorize the apps of your choice. I'd expect a reasonable outcome for the overall security profile on the final rulings in both the EU & USA.

Google also charges 30%, although things are starting to improve:

Good news! Google to cut service fee for subscriptions to 15% on Google Play Store

Alphabet Inc.’s Google is slashing the fees it takes from subscription services on Google Play Store following pressure from developers and lawmakers.

tech.hindustantimes.com

Hopefully what the DOJ will do is attack the very specific portions of Apple that need to be pruned. I don't imagine this suit going super smoothly tho...Apple has a great team of lawyers & I'm guessing a lot of the aspects of the case will suffer from diffusion, unfortunately.

 

[manly]

Different risk levels due to access & privacy. The data collection on mobile devices is absolutely astounding. The European Commission is even fighting Apple on simply doing malware scans on third-party store apps. If you choose to bypass Apple's sandbox on a jailbroken iPhone, then you risk those apps having unfettered access to your photos, messages, and other data. At least with the EU third-party iOS app stores, Apple could prevent privacy invasions with those apps within their security infrastructure. At that point, in theory, it would be just like a Mac running OSX with Gatekeeper, where you're free to authorize the apps of your choice. I'd expect a reasonable outcome for the overall security profile on the final rulings in both the EU & USA.

Google also charges 30%, although things are starting to improve:

Good news! Google to cut service fee for subscriptions to 15% on Google Play Store

Alphabet Inc.’s Google is slashing the fees it takes from subscription services on Google Play Store following pressure from developers and lawmakers.

tech.hindustantimes.com

Hopefully what the DOJ will do is attack the very specific portions of Apple that need to be pruned. I don't imagine this suit going super smoothly tho...Apple has a great team of lawyers & I'm guessing a lot of the aspects of the case will suffer from diffusion, unfortunately.

I guess I'm not like most people because I don't have homemade porn on my phone. I do almost all of my online banking on a PC, so I'd be a lot more worried about malware there than on my phone. Also, mobile OS's have always been sandboxed, so the standard security model is much tighter (Apple didn't even have a file manager until just a few years ago). Realistically, if you're willing to sideload a cracked app downloaded from a .ru site, then you deserve whatever you're going to get. Installing a AAA game from a big publisher outside of the App(le) Store isn't going to be a major attack vector. But I understand that globally, the smartphone is a primary computing device for most people today. Don't forget Win11 has proven that data collection can be equally astounding on a PC.

I said a decade ago that the 30% cut was excessive once the infrastructure was already in place. App stores are tremendously successful and great for consumers, but it's become free money for Apple and Google. I don't know what the "right" number is, but I suspect if the amount was 10%, Epic Games wouldn't care all that much.

Honestly sideloading apps isn't a big deal, but it's emblematic of the ways Apple says "security and privacy" when they actually mean vendor lock-in.

 

[Brainonska511]

I said a decade ago that the 30% cut was excessive once the infrastructure was already in place. App stores are tremendously successful and great for consumers, but it's become free money for Apple and Google. I don't know what the "right" number is, but I suspect if the amount was 10%, Epic Games wouldn't care all that much.

Honestly sideloading apps isn't a big deal, but it's emblematic of the ways Apple says "security and privacy" when they actually mean vendor lock-in.

I always thought a big issue for the apps wasn't just the cut the store takes, but the fact that the store takes a cut of each internal-to-the-app transaction.

 

[Kaido]

I said a decade ago that the 30% cut was excessive once the infrastructure was already in place. App stores are tremendously successful and great for consumers, but it's become free money for Apple and Google. I don't know what the "right" number is, but I suspect if the amount was 10%, Epic Games wouldn't care all that much.

Exactly...reasonable operating fees can be reasonable. I suspect Apple knew their hardware growth days would come to an end & so they left the 30% up as a cash cow (as did Google!).

 

[MrSquished]

The whole issue here is not the app store. There are multiple things at play.

Also. These IT guys really just worried about work load should lighten up, this won't really affect you. Until when some of Apple's abuses of power that kept consumers stuck in their overpriced walled garden start to switch now that they are not as constrained.

That will be a while. So brush up your resumes 😁

I kid. This will all be fine. And it will be better for consumers, even if that doesn't matter to some folks.

 

[Kaido]

The whole issue here is not the app store. There are multiple things at play.

The fact that any company has a trillion dollars is kind of eye-watering lol. Apple had $162 billion dollars in cash on hand last year...

Apple now has $162 billion in cash on hand, slightly less than last quarter

Here's how much money Apple has in its cash pile.

www.cnbc.com

 

[darkswordsman17]

Apple has over 50% of market share of smartphones in the U.S.; I've even seen numbers north of 60% which is wild considering they have the highest ASP in the industry. They capture nearly all of industry hardware profits.

The argument of "but wait, Google is a monopolist" doesn't absolve Apple of its plethora of consumer-unfriendly actions. But the DoJ will have a difficult time winning a very long court battle, if it goes that far. It's not illegal to have a monopoly under U.S. law; it's only illegal to abuse that monopoly.

Lest people forget, Microsoft played extremely dirty in the 1990s; Bill Gates was a ruthless CEO par excellence. For all its warts, Apple isn't quite as shady and really doesn't have the same type of industry clout as Microsoft once did or that Google has in search. Apple will lean very heavily on plausible deniability, i.e. their walled garden is a security feature, not to exert market dominance.

Big Tech is so dominant now that you don't have just one desktop OS monopoly, but many different ones.

Google paid for that dominance in form of the ad situation they exploited by buying up their competition and they're paying Apple tens of billions each year to keep Google as the search for iOS. There's almost certainly other quid pro quo involved.

Apple definitely has been partaking in blatantly anti-competitive and anti-consumer practices, that they really can only get away with due to their very strong position in the market. The fact they have been getting away with forcing all browsers on one of their platforms to use their rendering engine (effectively making other browsers just GUI skins) is so absurd considering the Microsoft precedent in browsers. That has been their argument but it has not been doing well in the EU, and likely will do even worse since that was happening before the revelations of the Google anti-trust trial came out. And as the EU cracks down on the behavior by the tech companies.

 

[mikeymikec]

Insurance Insights & Tips | Worth Insurance Experts

Explore stories, insights, and expert advice to help you choose the perfect insurance for your lifestyle, wherever you are in the world.

www.worthinsurance.com

I thought I'd have a look at this. Here is the first source for its claims:

A Not-So-Common Cold: Malware Statistics in 2025

Trojan horses, viruses, spyware… find out what's lurking on the web and how it can affect your computer by reading our malware statistics.

dataprot.net

Like three quarters of that page's sources are from companies trying to sell you something relevant to the claim they're making.

av-test? Are you/they serious? The site that claims to test anti-virus packages against "zero-day threats", and even claims that at least one anti-virus package protects against 100% of them, also that the industry average detection rate for zero-days is 97%!

Here's a claim from your page:
"75% of all devices that are infected with malware in some form are routers."

It turns out they have trouble with reading comprehension:

From the first reference link (the other two don't mention the word router):
"Three in four infected IoT devices are routers."

 

[manly]

I thought I'd have a look at this. Here is the first source for its claims:

A Not-So-Common Cold: Malware Statistics in 2025

Trojan horses, viruses, spyware… find out what's lurking on the web and how it can affect your computer by reading our malware statistics.

dataprot.net

Like three quarters of that page's sources are from companies trying to sell you something relevant to the claim they're making.

av-test? Are you/they serious? The site that claims to test anti-virus packages against "zero-day threats", and even claims that at least one anti-virus package protects against 100% of them, also that the industry average detection rate for zero-days is 97%!

Here's a claim from your page:
"75% of all devices that are infected with malware in some form are routers."

It turns out they have trouble with reading comprehension:

From the first reference link (the other two don't mention the word router):
"Three in four infected IoT devices are routers."

LMAO I was wondering why Worth Insurance are cybersecurity experts, without reading the article. That page is terrible, an endless stream of stats with just 3 total references? @Kaido, do better.

(FWIW a network router isn't an IoT device.)

 

[MrSquished]

LMAO I was wondering why Worth Insurance are cybersecurity experts, without reading the article. That page is terrible, an endless stream of stats with just 3 total references? @Kaido, do better.

(FWIW a network router isn't an IoT device.)

Maybe safari browser gives special apple fanboy results when it comes to these types of searches

 

[Kaido]

LMAO I was wondering why Worth Insurance are cybersecurity experts, without reading the article. That page is terrible, an endless stream of stats with just 3 total references? @Kaido, do better.

(FWIW a network router isn't an IoT device.)

Don't hate on my premium search skills

 

[MrSquished]

Don't hate on my premium search skills

View attachment 95868

It's ok we know you are probably using Safari, not the preferred browser of search monopoly Google, so of course you would get inferior results