Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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M5 Family discussion here:

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[retnuh]

I just got an LG 6K 6144x3456 monitor. My M4 Mac mini has display options of 3072x1728 (2X scaled) and 6144x3456 (no scaling), but nothing in-between.

….snip….

Resolution stuff aside how’s the monitor? General compatibility, sleep/on delay, usability things etc? I’ve been thinking of picking on up as my main development monitor to replace the current 27” 4k one.

 

[Eug]

Resolution stuff aside how’s the monitor? General compatibility, sleep/on delay, usability things etc? I’ve been thinking of picking on up as my main development monitor to replace the current 27” 4k one.

No sleep problem with the LG 6K (Thunderbolt). Yay! I had a sleep problem that was recently introduced with Tahoe with my old Huawei MateView (USB-C).

As mentioned, there are no resolutions on the M4 Mac mini between 3072x1728 and 6144x3456. I know some coders like higher resolutions than 3072x1728 for this screen size, but you may need an M4 Pro or something for that on a Mac. I didn't try BetterDisplay, but some owners of the Dell 6K couldn't get higher resolutions either even with BetterDisplay.

I get full 6K 10-bit support with 4:4:4 colour at 60 Hz from my M4 Mac mini, both from Thunderbolt 4 and from HDMI. I cannot test the Thunderbolt 5 functionality, but this is what I get from an external USB 4 / Thunderbolt SSD attached to the monitor's 2nd Thunderbolt port.



I get normal Thunderbolt 4 speeds for reads, but half speeds for writes. Is that because of two lanes being taken up by the monitor?

Wake from sleep is quite fast. It was annoying with the Huawei. Not a big deal on the Huawei in the greater scheme of things, but a nice improvement on the LG nonetheless. According to an online review, from plug-in to screen showing, it was 4 s on the Apple Pro Display XDR, 5 s on the LG 6K, and 10 s on the Asus 6K.

Not sure what machine you will be using it with what colour space, but it didn't really play nice out of the box with Macs. Colours looked off. There is no default Display P3 profile on the monitor, but Display P3 is the standard for Macs for general usage. Luckily I already own a colorimeter and LG has their own calibration software, so I was able to create a hardware calibration right on the monitor for Display P3. The calibration delta error is 1.1 average (excellent), although dE 2000 was as high as 3.4 (good) for two of the individual colours. The other 22 colours tested had a dE 2000 of less than 2 (excellent). All dE 94 scores were below 3 (very good), with most below 2 (excellent). Reviewers online said you can calibrate it even more accurately with third party software, but my SpyderX Pro software doesn't support all of that, and the recommended free DisplayCal software fails on my system for some reason.







I have zero backlight bleed, but if you look at in a completely dark room, you can see a bit of off-axis glow, probably because of the matte surface. However, I don't use it in a completely dark room. Also, the matte surface is pretty decent otherwise. Nothing like the old matte screens from years ago. Text quality is excellent. If a glossy Apple Studio Display is a 10 for text, I'd say this is a 9, and better than a 4K 27" screen, which I might rate an 8 at my 22" seating distance. I do notice some Dirty Screen Effect though on solid white backgrounds, but it's not as if I watch hockey games on this monitor.

Height is taller than I'd hoped. According to LG Korea, the minimum height to the top of the screen is 20.6". It isn't on mine. The minimum height is about 21.5". According to LG USA's customer service person, the one in their office is over 22" minimum. So, I dunno what gives. Height adjustability is about 60 mm, so the maximum height to the top of the screen is about 24" on mine. Here it is at the minimum height, with my M4 Mac mini. Clearance above the table is at about 5.4". FWIW though, the bottom of the usable screen is about 1 cm lower than what it would be on a 27" iMac. Silver coloured bezel of the chassis is about 2 mm and additional non-viewable black border on screen is about 8 mm so overall rim of non-viewable edge is about 1 cm all around.



Surprisingly, the audio doesn't completely suck. It's not great, but it's usable for some people, as it's way better than average for a monitor. However, I will of course continue to use my external bookshelf speakers.

With my default 120 nit setting, it doesn't run hot, but I do feel a bit of warm air coming out of the top. I hear no fan but I don't know if there is a fan or not. 120 nits is at the 16 brightness setting, out of 100. At full brightness it is WAY too bright for regular usage, but it can be good for some streaming video content.

 

[name99]

I just got an LG 6K 6144x3456 monitor. My M4 Mac mini has display options of 3072x1728 (2X scaled) and 6144x3456 (no scaling), but nothing in-between.

View attachment 132911

This is in contrast to the other higher end M4 series machines which apparently have other options like 3200x1800 and 3360x1890.

View attachment 132912

I don't know if this is a hardware limitation or a software limitation, and I wonder if M5 has the same limitation.

The state of displays in 2025 seems a total clusterfsck. I'm not sure if it's just too many standards have come out too recently?

My experience has been that what you see as available options depends on how you connect HDMI? USB-4? TB? USB-4 via some adapter?, but also on random junk like "have you unplugged and replugged the display connector?" "have you rebooted the computer recently" and "have you power cycled the monitor?"
You could futz around with each of these, and using the Better Display app, to see what's at least possible. (After you see what's possible, then comes the fun of trying to lock into setting so that persists...)

 

[Eug]

The state of displays in 2025 seems a total clusterfsck. I'm not sure if it's just too many standards have come out too recently?

My experience has been that what you see as available options depends on how you connect HDMI? USB-4? TB? USB-4 via some adapter?, but also on random junk like "have you unplugged and replugged the display connector?" "have you rebooted the computer recently" and "have you power cycled the monitor?"
You could futz around with each of these, and using the Better Display app, to see what's at least possible. (After you see what's possible, then comes the fun of trying to lock into setting so that persists...)

Thanks, but this is actually a known behavioural difference between the Mx non-Pro and Pro/Max chips. However, it doesn’t really affect me since I have no interest in using anything higher than 3072x1728 anyway, because then the default text sizing would be way too small for me.

If anything, if I were to use a non-integer scaled resolution I’d consider using a smaller rez, something like 2880x1620 to increase default text sizing, but it’s easy enough just to stick with the native 2X scaled 3072x1728 and increase text sizing in Safari as needed.

What I’m wondering about though, just for my own interest, is if it also affects the M5, because it did for M1-M4 IIRC.

Another difference is that while the M4 can run 6K over Thunderbolt and 6K over HDMI, it can’t do it at the same time, whereas the M4 Pro can. This has no real practical impact on me but I noticed that if I plug in the Mac mini to BOTH the Thunderbolt and HDMI ports, the second port gets downgraded to 4K. The annoyance comes when you unplug the 6K connection, the other connection remains at 4K. The workaround is just never to plug them both in at 6K at the same time.

BTW, my M4 iPad Pro seems to be problematic with this monitor. It can’t seem to reliably maintain a 6K connection. I tried a certified Thunderbolt 4 cable and the Thunderbolt 5 cable that came with the monitor, but neither were reliable at 6K with the iPad Pro, even though Mac mini works perfectly fine at 6K with either cable.

 

[retnuh]

No sleep problem with the LG 6K (Thunderbolt). Yay! I had a sleep problem that was recently introduced with Tahoe with my old Huawei MateView (USB-C).

..snip..

Wow, thank you for the detailed reply, looks like I’ll be ordering one. Mainly using on a M4 pro mini. Current monitor to replace in this setup is a Dell UP2720Q, which I’ll be keeping for photo work, will allow a little different/better setup for that and still on a MBP M1 Max for all my raw post processing. It does look like I’ll need to compare the two though from your measurements, might end up dual purpose. Setup wise there’s some overlap between work and personal use. The Mac mini currently is 100% work. I really want VMware or Parallels to actually support nested VMs so I can just get a Mac Studio and throw all of work inside a VM.

 

[poke01]

Looks like A20 and M6 will be on N2, not N2P.

Qualcomm, AMD and Mediatek will move to N2P.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Looks like A20 and M6 will be on N2, not N2P.

Qualcomm, AMD and Mediatek will move to N2P.

it's whatever the latest PDK they use.
Everything's DTCO'd to death.

 

[mvprod123]

Looks like A20 and M6 will be on N2, not N2P.

Qualcomm, AMD and Mediatek will move to N2P.

The difference between N2 and N2P in performance is 5%. Not significant. Microarchitecture matters.

 

[Doug S]

Looks like A20 and M6 will be on N2, not N2P.

Qualcomm, AMD and Mediatek will move to N2P.

If they use N2P they won't ship until Q2 2027 at the earliest. TSMC isn't starting N2 mass production until the end of this year so late Q2 is the earliest we could possibly see those chips ship in finished products. There is typically a 12 month gap to the 'P' release but even if they shorten that somewhat it is still gonna be in Q2.

Apple never had an option to use N2P for A20 when it is shipping in products by the millions in late Q3 2026!

 

[poke01]

Apple Launching Budget MacBook in 2026

Apple is developing a more affordable Mac notebook that's set to come out in the first half of 2026, according to Bloomberg. The machine will...

www.macrumors.com

looks like this is happening

 

[Mopetar]

Rumors of a low-cost MacBook are hardly new. There's nothing stopping Netflix reason that Apple couldn't do so, but that's also true five years ago as well. I'll believe it when I see it.

I hope they do something at least a little bit cool. An inexpensive MacBook would be boring even if it sells like gangbusters.

 

[Doug S]

Rumors of a low-cost MacBook are hardly new. There's nothing stopping Netflix reason that Apple couldn't do so, but that's also true five years ago as well. I'll believe it when I see it.

I hope they do something at least a little bit cool. An inexpensive MacBook would be boring even if it sells like gangbusters.

It seems like there's a lot more smoke this time around, so I do expect to see it. Yes it will be boring from the perspective of this forum where people are looking for "cool stuff", but boring stuff that sells like gangbusters helps fund the cool stuff.

Sounds like around the same time they intro that low end Macbook we'll see M5 Pro & Max, and if they have gone to a chiplet architecture to benefit their server builds then amortizing the design costs across more chips might allow for lower prices and/or more "cool stuff" in the "beyond Max" category.

 

[johnsonwax]

Rumors of a low-cost MacBook are hardly new. There's nothing stopping Netflix reason that Apple couldn't do so, but that's also true five years ago as well. I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, business model aside, 5 years ago Apple was putting A series up against Intel core as M series was just about to ship. That led to weird problems like Apple's T2 security chip being way too close in performance to the Intel processor in the MBA that it was just there to secure. In order for an A series Mac to make sense it would need to properly ranked relative to both M series and Intel so that it doesn't risk cannibalizing the M series but is powerful enough to take share off of x86 and I'm pretty sure that we're now in that state.

I'm still skeptical of Apple going downmarket on Mac price, but we'll see. Another possibility there is that Apple sees either the disruptions at Intel as a new opportunity, or the work being done with Qualcomm on Windows ARM hardware as a threat and are see that market as more reachable than before.

 

[Eug]

I'm still skeptical of Apple going downmarket on Mac price, but we'll see. Another possibility there is that Apple sees either the disruptions at Intel as a new opportunity, or the work being done with Qualcomm on Windows ARM hardware as a threat and are see that market as more reachable than before.

I’m still thinking $799 official retail, maybe with 12 GB.

If you want 16 GB, you get an M5 with it for just $200 more.

In other news, Gurman is saying Apple will skip the M4 Ultra, and go straight to the M5 Ultra in 2026.

M5 Ultra chip is coming to the Mac next year, per report - 9to5Mac

Apple’s new M5 chip has several higher-end variants coming next year, and according to a new report, an M5 Ultra will be among them.

9to5mac.com

I guess we'll finally see a Mac Pro update. The last Mac Pro was released in June of 2023.

That will be a good time to release new Apple displays too.

 

[okoroezenwa]

I’m still thinking $799 official retail, maybe with 12 GB.

I could see $649 (or $699) to replace the M1 MBA they still have but yeah $799 would be my pessimistic/realistic guess.

In other news, Gurman is saying Apple will skip the M4 Ultra, and go straight to the M5 Ultra in 2026.

Makes sense. It’s a funny situation the Ultras and the M1 Air have resulted in where there’s still at least 1 member of one of M1-M5 still being sold as new. Would be great if 2026 properly clears that up and there are no weird M2 iMac-style skips.

That will be a good time to release new Apple displays too.

IIRC there were rumours regarding those being updated too so fingers crossed.

 

[Doug S]

I'm still skeptical of Apple going downmarket on Mac price, but we'll see. Another possibility there is that Apple sees either the disruptions at Intel as a new opportunity, or the work being done with Qualcomm on Windows ARM hardware as a threat and are see that market as more reachable than before.

They did with the iPhone, without hurting their margins. If you think about it, what is really the difference between an iPhone 16e/17e and a Macbook "SE" if they both have a phone chip? The phone has a smaller display, but it is OLED, multitouch, and higher PPI so the display cost is probably a wash between the two if not less expensive on the Mac. The phone has a rear camera the Mac wouldn't, but the Mac has a keyboard the phone doesn't. The Mac's case has more material, and a bigger battery, but it has more room inside and is probably easier to assemble. So all in all the BOM is probably pretty close to a wash. If the numbers work at $599 for the phone they should work for the Macbook. Probably the same fixed config for RAM, with a few options for NAND.

 

[mvprod123]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1986014690317873519

 

[pj-]

They did with the iPhone, without hurting their margins. If you think about it, what is really the difference between an iPhone 16e/17e and a Macbook "SE" if they both have a phone chip? The phone has a smaller display, but it is OLED, multitouch, and higher PPI so the display cost is probably a wash between the two if not less expensive on the Mac. The phone has a rear camera the Mac wouldn't, but the Mac has a keyboard the phone doesn't. The Mac's case has more material, and a bigger battery, but it has more room inside and is probably easier to assemble. So all in all the BOM is probably pretty close to a wash. If the numbers work at $599 for the phone they should work for the Macbook. Probably the same fixed config for RAM, with a few options for NAND.

If apple can make $600 work and it doesn't have any glaring flaws, it becomes a no brainer recommendation for anyone non-techie in my life who asks "what laptop should i get?", unless they are severely budget constrained. Slap on an apple care subscription and I won't hear from them for several years.

Why on earth would a family/friends tech support person suggest anything else? It will certainly be better built than anything else for the price, and the OS is fine as long as you use it how apple wants you to, which most normal people will.

 

[Meteor Late]

If apple can make $600 work and it doesn't have any glaring flaws, it becomes a no brainer recommendation for anyone non-techie in my life who asks "what laptop should i get?", unless they are severely budget constrained. Slap on an apple care subscription and I won't hear from them for several years.

Why on earth would a family/friends tech support person suggest anything else? It will certainly be better built than anything else for the price, and the OS is fine as long as you use it how apple wants you to, which most normal people will.

A cheap Laptop with an OLED display would be my personal reason, basically. I do basic stuff with my Laptop but at the end of the day, I am always looking at the display, and the difference is just out of this world for indoor usage, of course, for more of an outdoor usage the display of a cheaper Macbook may even be better, because of the much better antireflective treatment their glossy displays have compared to almost all the OLED laptop displays.

 

[Eug]

If apple can make $600 work and it doesn't have any glaring flaws, it becomes a no brainer recommendation for anyone non-techie in my life who asks "what laptop should i get?", unless they are severely budget constrained. Slap on an apple care subscription and I won't hear from them for several years.

Why on earth would a family/friends tech support person suggest anything else? It will certainly be better built than anything else for the price, and the OS is fine as long as you use it how apple wants you to, which most normal people will.

If you're expecting $600 retail, then prepare to be disappointed. $600 on sale months after release is a different story though.

 

[johnsonwax]

They did with the iPhone, without hurting their margins. If you think about it, what is really the difference between an iPhone 16e/17e and a Macbook "SE" if they both have a phone chip? The phone has a smaller display, but it is OLED, multitouch, and higher PPI so the display cost is probably a wash between the two if not less expensive on the Mac. The phone has a rear camera the Mac wouldn't, but the Mac has a keyboard the phone doesn't. The Mac's case has more material, and a bigger battery, but it has more room inside and is probably easier to assemble. So all in all the BOM is probably pretty close to a wash. If the numbers work at $599 for the phone they should work for the Macbook. Probably the same fixed config for RAM, with a few options for NAND.

The market constraint on the Mac isn't price but software access. I'm struggling to see who the downmarket customer is. Maybe students? By and large the downmarket competition for the Mac has been the iPhone given how much of productivity apps have been displaced by online services and how much of the internet is dead replaced by apps.

But don't discount the aggregate costs on the larger Mac. I'll note my story earlier from an engineer on the original Mac Mini who relayed that almost all of the cost benefits of the product came from the smaller volume/mass even considering the shift to a more expensive 2.5" drive from 3.5". Less aluminum, less time on the mill, cheaper to ship (remember Apple air freights everything), cheap to store/stock, less packaging, etc. Apple doesn't have warehouses, cheap distribution facilities on the edge of town, they store everything in their high rent/high traffic retail locations. Individually those aren't large numbers but every one is 2x-6x higher for the Mac than the iPhone, and that adds up.

From a component standpoint yeah, they're close to a wash, but you also have to take every additional dollar cost on the Mac and divide by the margins. I suspect the Mac also has a higher warranty cost ratio based on things I've been told by engineers that has to be baked into the retail price. Macs also carry higher retail margins for Apple (wholesale costs to retailers compared to MSRP) - iPhone used to be (likely still is) $50/iPhone and Mac is $100/Mac with the MBP Pro/Max, Studio etc being $150. Retailer margins are expected to come off of AppleCare sales or chained Beats sales - those with extremely low wholesale prices - close to $0. Some of that reflects that a Mac sale takes longer than an iPhone sale.

 

[Eug]

But don't discount the aggregate costs on the larger Mac. I'll note my story earlier from an engineer on the original Mac Mini who relayed that almost all of the cost benefits of the product came from the smaller volume/mass even considering the shift to a more expensive 2.5" drive from 3.5". Less aluminum, less time on the mill, cheaper to ship (remember Apple air freights everything), cheap to store/stock, less packaging, etc. Apple doesn't have warehouses, cheap distribution facilities on the edge of town, they store everything in their high rent/high traffic retail locations. Individually those aren't large numbers but every one is 2x-6x higher for the Mac than the iPhone, and that adds up.

While I generally agree with what you said, it’s not true that Apple air freights everything. They air ship new high demand product releases but often make use of surface shipping for other products, as it’s cheaper and helps them meet their carbon targets.

 

[Pneumothorax]

I’m still thinking $799 official retail, maybe with 12 GB.

If you want 16 GB, you get an M5 with it for just $200 more.

In other news, Gurman is saying Apple will skip the M4 Ultra, and go straight to the M5 Ultra in 2026.

M5 Ultra chip is coming to the Mac next year, per report - 9to5Mac

Apple’s new M5 chip has several higher-end variants coming next year, and according to a new report, an M5 Ultra will be among them.

9to5mac.com

I guess we'll finally see a Mac Pro update. The last Mac Pro was released in June of 2023.

That will be a good time to release new Apple displays too.

Hopefully the new displays will finally break the 60hz barrier. If I’m paying that much for a 27” in 2025, I’m expecting ProMotion

 

[Eug]

Hopefully the new displays will finally break the 60hz barrier. If I’m paying that much for a 27” in 2025, I’m expecting ProMotion

Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that most Macs wouldn’t be able to run 32” 6K 120 Hz displays even with DSC at 10-bit 4:4:4, since most Macs are still on DisplayPort 1.4 over USB-C.

27” 5K 120 Hz would work though. I suppose Apple could release a 120 Hz 27” Apple Studio Display for the masses, and then release a 6K Pro Display 120 Hz that would only work on Pro Macs with DisplayPort 2.1. I’m not optimistic though.

It’s moot for me though, since I already got my LG UltraFine 6K last week, and I’m perfectly happy with it at 60 Hz, paired with my DisplayPort 1.4 M4 Mac mini.

 

[StinkyPinky]

It could be $700 if they make it a plastic shell and a less bright LCD display. I think it will still come with 16GB of ram though.

I've also heard it may only be available from the education store which would make 700 more believable.