Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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M5 Family discussion here:

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[Doug S]

Have mobile sensors and optics made such huge strides lately?

(Or should I take it in the "Homepod speakers are Hi-Fi audio" sort of sense?)

It isn't so much they've made "huge strides" as the cases where a larger sensor (i.e. in a camera used in a big budget Hollywood film) makes a difference are limited. Mostly low light or high contrast scenes. Optics aren't much of an issue because there are external lenses available that can handle a wide zoom range for you when it is needed for stuff like action shots (whether one still considers it "shot on iPhone" in such cases is left to people who want to argue pedantry)

 

[DZero]

I've seen a few different people now say the iPhone Air sometimes overheats when recording video outdoors in warm weather. The same people are saying the 17 Pro does not in the same conditions.

I can understand this, as the heat dissipation on this 17 Pro Max really is great. The soft aluminum being prone to denting and scratches is a downer, but so far this phone has stayed noticeably cooler than my prior 12 Pro Max. It'd be good if they could somehow wedge a vapour chamber into the iPhone Air in a year or two.

Also, I'd hazard to guess the real world battery life on the 17 Pro Max is nearly twice as long as the 12 Pro Max. (And it's not due to battery degradation. The 12 Pro Max has 100% battery health, because Apple replaced its battery earlier this year.) In that context, going from a 12 Pro Max to an iPhone Air would actually be fine in terms of comparative battery life, but going from a 12 Pro Max to a 17 Pro Max is a battery life revelation. I wish I had this battery life back in August when I was on vacation. I was continually fearing my battery dying on my 12 Pro Max as we were often away from a charging port when traveling. I don't think I'd have anywhere near the battery anxiety on the 17 Pro Max, because its battery life is truly stellar.

BTW, on my 12 Pro Max, I’ve deactivated cellular, signed out of iCloud and Messages, and turned off background checking for a bunch of apps, but kept mail and what not on it. I still would occasionally surf on it for short periods and check email. With that type of limited usage, I’ve seen that the battery on even that 12 Pro Max can actually last for a couple of days.

You are lucky... iPhone 11 Pro max and before that, didn't shared the same fate. The first jump came with the 12 series and then by the 15 or 16 came another jump in terms of battery life.

 

[Eug]

I got my Cosmic Orange 17 Pro Max today. That vapour chamber works wonders. Even with installing all the new apps for the initial setup and charging at the same time over MagSafe, the phone only got mildly warm.

Form factor is definitely chonky though. Noticeably thicker than my 12 Pro Max, although feels decent in-hand since the width is the same. Camera is a HUGE upgrade. Like totally different league.

I'm having a hard time getting used to the new phat 17 Pro Max form factor. The 12 Pro Max was a bit awkward for me with my small hands, but the 17 Pro Max is bit more awkward, and may have pushed me over the edge.

The 17 Pro Max is good in the hands if I'm holding it with both hands and typing with both my thumbs, but if I try to hold it in my left hand alone while scrolling with my right, it's more annoying than the 12 Pro Max was, especially with the case I have on it which is a bit thicker than my 12 Pro Max case. So, I bought a 17 Pro and will give that a whirl. Here are the two side by side, in elago silicone cases.



I've only had the iPhone 17 Pro for a few hours but so far I prefer it. However, I do notice that in desktop optimized webpages, the 17 Pro can sometimes feel a bit cramped, maybe partially because I run with 115% zoom for Safari fonts. The Pro also feels small in two-handed typing mode.

 

[fastandfurious6]

what's the real benefit of iphone 17 over iphone 12 other than telescope camera on pro?

phone upgrades stopped being relevant many years ago... phones reached endgame in 2020

 

[okoroezenwa]

what's the real benefit of iphone 17 over iphone 12 other than telescope camera on pro?

I’m sure you can look up comparisons between successive generations of iPhones and make a list. Hell, I’m pretty sure Macrumors used to make posts comparing the latest iPhone to previous generations up to a number of years ago. Maybe they have one for 12 -> 17?

phone upgrades stopped being relevant many years ago... phones reached endgame in 2020

If you say so!

 

[Eug]

what's the real benefit of iphone 17 over iphone 12 other than telescope camera on pro?

phone upgrades stopped being relevant many years ago... phones reached endgame in 2020

As someone who currently has the 12 Pro Max, 17 Pro, and 17 Pro Max, here are my 2¢.

It depends upon what you use it for. If you do mobile gaming on it, then the 17 series is way, way faster. Also, with 8 GB RAM there is support for AI. Although I don't use most of the AI stuff, I really like the Photos Cleanup feature which is AI assisted removal of objects in photos.

For me though the telephoto is the main reason, along with the general camera improvements. In general the photos in the 17 Pro are noticeably better than the 12 series, even at the same focal lengths, partially due to the larger and much higher resolution sensors (48 MP x 3), and partially due to the improved photo processing hardware and software. There is also the ability to add portrait mode after the fact, which is very, very convenient, and which is not possible on the 12 series. Portrait mode on the 17 series is also higher quality, with better edge recognition. For video, the 17 series also has wind noise reduction, but the 12 series does not. There is also the square* FaceTime sensor on the 17 series, which allows you to choose between landscape and portrait shots while keeping the iPhone in portrait mode (with the centred FaceTime camera at the top, not off to the side).

The iPhone 17 series also has 120 Hz ProMotion, but personally I don't care much. 60 Hz on the 12 series is perfectly fine for me.

The other factor is the battery life. The 12 series doesn't have good battery life.

However, if it weren't for the photo and video upgrades, I could use the 12 Pro Max for a few more years as my primary driver. It's reasonably fast and doesn't significantly lag. 6 GB RAM in an iPhone is still very decent, whereas I had started noticed some mild lags in 3 GB devices (iPhone XR). The mediocre battery life would continue to bug me when I'm not working from home though.

*The FaceTime sensor is not actually square, despite what Apple claimed in its event. It's octagonal, sort of, or actually more of a square with the corners cut off on a curve. That's how vertical and horizontal rectangular images can be generated in portrait orientation, but probably one of the reasons why open gate images from that camera are not allowed.

 

[mvprod123]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1974292624388612122

 

[Eug]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1974292624388612122

What's the difference between C1 and C1X that accounts for the big difference in uploads? BTW, although all the numbers are close enough to not really matter that much, I find it amusing that my kid's budget iPhone 16e with C1 has the fastest download speeds out of all those tested, beating C1X and X80.

 

[adroc_thurston]

What's the difference between C1 and C1X that accounts for the big difference in uploads?

Upload carrier aggregation.

 

[fastandfurious6]

you can look up comparisons between 13 -> 17

yeah https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=14050&idPhone2=11103

- extra 400mah battery
- wifi 7
- better cameras
- LTPO OLED vs OLED

that's it! both don't lag at all even if antutu shows 2 billion better score lol

no reason to upgrade since 2020

 

[okoroezenwa]

yeah https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=14050&idPhone2=11103

- extra 400mah battery
- wifi 7
- better cameras
- LTPO OLED vs OLED

that's it! both don't lag at all even if antutu shows 2 billion better score lol

no reason to upgrade since 2020

Well it was between the 12 and 17 but whatever. I’ve found if you’re asking people to help justify an upgrade you’re probably better off sticking with what you have. No point moving to something you can’t even justify yourself.

 

[fastandfurious6]

no it's very different:

required performance hit a plateau on phones. 2020 basic iphone will run as fast as 2025 iphone pro.

- peripherals (screen battery etc) were already near perfect in 2020, every upgrade you see each year is just incremental. 5 years just for small battery increase and 500 extra nits on hdr

- iphone 12 can run latest IOS no problem. no radical new OS that old phones can't support.

etc. wasn't the case between iphone 9 - 10X - 11 - 12 etc.

they're running on yearly cadence without anything really new to show

 

[fastandfurious6]

telescope periscope camera is the only real new upgrade, already existed for years in the market, and it's gatekeeped behind $1000+ pro version... everything else between iphones 12 to 17 are very similar

 

[Eug]

telescope periscope camera is the only real new upgrade, already existed for years in the market, and it's gatekeeped behind $1000+ pro version... everything else between iphones 12 to 17 are very similar

Yes, the telephoto is a ginormous upgrade, but the ultrawide and main cameras on the iPhone 17 Pro are also way better than the ones on the iPhone 12 Pro. In fact, I’d say the 2X crop resolution of the iPhone 17 non-Pro’s main camera is at least on par with the iPhone 12 Pro 2X telephoto in many shooting conditions. Thus I think the iPhone 17 non-Pro is this year’s best iPhone value by far, and a very reasonable upgrade path from the iPhone 12 Pro. The iPhone 17 Pro is even better though of course.

BTW, I just downloaded AI yesterday, and the audio on-device Live Translation feature is very good. It’s making me consider buying the AirPods Pro 3 partially for realtime in-ear audio translation support. This is supported on the iPhone 17 non-Pro too.

However, if you just make calls, iMessage, surf the net, and play Angry Birds, the 12 series is totally fine because as you say, they do not have much lag even in iOS 26. The iPhone 17 series is noticeably snappier, but the iPhone 12 series is no slouch. The main caveat though is battery life. Battery life of the 17 Pro Max feels like it’s almost double that of the 12 Pro Max. Battery life of the 17 Pro is not as good as the 17 Pro Max but it appears to still comfortably beat the 12 Pro Max by a significant margin. If this holds up, I think I may keep the 17 Pro over the 17 Pro Max, as the 17 Pro is more comfortable to use.

 

[fastandfurious6]

you just confirmed what I said:

battery life and cameras, nothing else really 😉

 

[Eug]

you just confirmed what I said:

battery life and cameras, nothing else really 😉

Well, if the cameras are important to you, it's really great, and point I was making is that the iPhone 17 non-Pro is already a nice upgrade from the 12 Pro, even for the 2X telephoto. You don't have to spend the money on what you call a "gatekeeped" iPhone 17 Pro if you don't want to, because the iPhone 17 is already such a great machine. But if you don't care about any of these things, then yeah save your money. I too think that people who upgrade every year or two are crazy.

BTW, my plan was to replace my daughter's iPhone XR with my hand-me-down 12 Pro Max as its iOS 26 performance is still good. However, her XR prematurely died several months ago and a replacement from Apple was CA$599/US$430! Ouch. So, I bought her the iPhone 16e instead. It looks like my younger son is going to get an iPhone earlier than originally planned.

With regards to battery life, Apple also claims 17 Pro Max battery life is almost double 12 Pro Max battery life.

 

[Eug]

Not surprisingly, at least anecdotally, the iPhone 17 Pro warms up faster than the iPhone 17 Pro Max. However, both run cooler than the iPhone 12 Pro Max.

 

[Mopetar]

What's the difference between C1 and C1X that accounts for the big difference in uploads?

Must be the X-factor.

 

[The Hardcard]

no it's very different:

required performance hit a plateau on phones. 2020 basic iphone will run as fast as 2025 iphone pro.

- peripherals (screen battery etc) were already near perfect in 2020, every upgrade you see each year is just incremental. 5 years just for small battery increase and 500 extra nits on hdr

- iphone 12 can run latest IOS no problem. no radical new OS that old phones can't support.

etc. wasn't the case between iphone 9 - 10X - 11 - 12 etc.

they're running on yearly cadence without anything really new to show

Any case of an iPhone 12 being as fast as an iPhone 17 is a case of a user with limited needs and it is a mistake to define the iPhone by people not using its power, even if they are the majority of the buyers.

That required performance plateau is yours, not mine. Nothing wrong with that, an iPhone 12 could easily handle the current tasks for more than 90 percent of people.

Even then, many who can live on that iPhone 12 performance plateau would appreciate the ability of the iPhone 17 Pro Max do those same tasks for hours longer between charges than a base iPhone 12 can.

I’d argue the the significance of a new device should be determined by the people who use it the heaviest, not the people with lightweight needs.

The people who have to interact with complex compute heavy web apps. Thousands of examples, one in particular - Electronic Logging Devices for truckers. The 17 Pro Max still struggles to keep up with piles of Javascript combined with whatever other code is entangled within. The 17 Pro Max feels like running in knee high water, a huge leap over the iPhone 12’s running in waist high water performance.

From AAA gaming, to using 3D maps generated by the LiDAR, to people not using Apple Intelligence but instead actually loading their own machine learning models, to data science and analysis tasks. Just some of a longer list of people for whom Apple been showing something new and valuable every year.

The iPhone 17 Pro Max won’t establish a performance plateau either. Every year these improvements are made, each one will be greatly appreciated.

 

[name99]

What's the difference between C1 and C1X that accounts for the big difference in uploads? BTW, although all the numbers are close enough to not really matter that much, I find it amusing that my kid's budget iPhone 16e with C1 has the fastest download speeds out of all those tested, beating C1X and X80.

Maybe thermal throttling?
Maybe a deliberate choice to run the Air (not the C1X) at "fast enough" speeds (optimized for energy usage), rather than max possible speeds?

 

[The Hardcard]

Maybe thermal throttling?
Maybe a deliberate choice to run the Air (not the C1X) at "fast enough" speeds (optimized for energy usage), rather than max possible speeds?

Or maybe the antennas? So many of these antennas are on the sides, and the Air has a lot less space there than the 16e.

 

[Doug S]

I wish I'd saved the link, but recently I read the average age of an iPhone in use was 5.7 years IIRC. That's obviously a worldwide stat - the 14 Pro Max, 12 Pro Max, X, and 6S plus I've traded in over the past decade are likely still in use somewhere in the world, perhaps even some older ones are. [Unrelated, but it would be kinda cool if Apple offered a way to tell you which iPhones you traded via their trade-in program were still active, and in which country]

So even if you are still using an iPhone 12 you bought new in 2020 you aren't topping that average age until iPhone 18 is released, and if you trade it then it will still have a second and maybe third life somewhere in the world.

Most people in richer countries will still replace more often, if for no other reason than it isn't that big of an expense when you consider how much time you use it per day. I usually replace mine every other year, and if I look at the daily hours of screen time (which like probably most people reading this, is too many) buying a new Pro Max at about half off list price (after the trade of the old one) it is a pretty tiny amount per hour I'm spending. How many other things in your life cost under a dollar an hour - even when including the cost of your cellular subscription?

 

[fastandfurious6]

- case of a user with limited needs

no real use cases other than ultra-niche, such as:

Electronic Logging Devices for truckers. 17 Pro Max still struggles

sounds like software issue 10000%

From AAA gaming, to using 3D maps generated by the LiDAR, to people not using Apple Intelligence but instead actually loading their own machine learning models, to data science and analysis tasks.

- ios/android AAA games are very few
- they all run near smooth 60fps on iphone 12

- lidar, LLM, data science etc are also niche easily <1% user market share


finally: need real AAA games or professional highend computing?

just get a Halo handheld

 

[Eug]

I wish I'd saved the link, but recently I read the average age of an iPhone in use was 5.7 years IIRC. That's obviously a worldwide stat - the 14 Pro Max, 12 Pro Max, X, and 6S plus I've traded in over the past decade are likely still in use somewhere in the world, perhaps even some older ones are. [Unrelated, but it would be kinda cool if Apple offered a way to tell you which iPhones you traded via their trade-in program were still active, and in which country]

So even if you are still using an iPhone 12 you bought new in 2020 you aren't topping that average age until iPhone 18 is released, and if you trade it then it will still have a second and maybe third life somewhere in the world.

Most people in richer countries will still replace more often, if for no other reason than it isn't that big of an expense when you consider how much time you use it per day. I usually replace mine every other year, and if I look at the daily hours of screen time (which like probably most people reading this, is too many) buying a new Pro Max at about half off list price (after the trade of the old one) it is a pretty tiny amount per hour I'm spending. How many other things in your life cost under a dollar an hour - even when including the cost of your cellular subscription?

5.7 years is longer than for the average upgrade cycle. I remember about 5-6 years ago, there was a stat that the average length of ownership was in the midst of a transition from 3+ years to around 4 years or so. However, that would not factor in used phones, and it seems that 5.7 years likely includes all those used phones. BTW, the stat for the upgrade cycle seems to have levelled off in 2022 according to this table, and was projected in 2023 to maybe even decrease in subsequent years.



However, it's shorter in the US.



Not only is the US a richer country, there are now a plethora of essentially phone rental deals through carriers, where you pay the monthly cost and get a new phone every 2 years. In a lot of areas didn't really exist a decade ago.

Below are the reasons. We mustn't forget that phones often get replaced because they break. That's the only reason we have an iPhone 16e. I didn't want to have to pay for one of those, but had to because my daughter's iPhone XR died. She would have loved my hand-me-down 12 Pro Max. A friend of mine refuses to use a case, ever, so he just pays for AppleCare+ and gets his phone fixed/replaced whenever he breaks it, and he seems to do that not infrequently.



In my case I'm on a 4-year cycle, although I extended it to 5 years this time around based on the rumours of the vastly improved camera for the 17 Pro over the 16 Pro. I actually usually buy every 2 years and write it off, but share with my wife so we each get one every 4 years.

 

[Doug S]

So back in early 2021 Tim Cook reported Apple had an installed base of 1.65 billion active Apple products, including "over 1 billion" iPhones. The most recent number for their installed base was 2.35 billion earlier this year, but the number of iPhones was not broken out. But if the overall installed base grew by 40% surely iPhones have grown a lot. Maybe not by the whole 40%, I'm not sure what else is included in that aside from iPhone, Mac, iPad and Watch. Do Airpods count?

Apple's yearly iPhone sales fluctuate, but have averaged around 225 million a year for the past decade. So given that Apple sold their billionth iPhone in 2015 that's well over 3 billion sold in total. Most of the ones older than a decade have likely been broken or retired by now, but everything sold in the past decade is still getting security updates (the 6S released in 2015 received its most recent security update a few weeks ago) so aside from breakage those are still gonna be in use somewhere.

So it is easy to believe the installed base has an average age of 5.7 years. The "upgrade cycle" of 3.7 years is talking about first owner. Obviously the people able to spend $500 to $1000 or more on a new smartphone aren't going to hold onto it until it is ready for retirement ~10+ years on.

There was a similar statistic I saw a few years ago that the average car in the US was 12.5 years old. The people are buying brand new cars aren't holding on them for 20+ years account for that 12.5 year average. They sell or trade them after 3-5 years and buy another brand new one, and it goes through multiple owners until it finally ends up in the crusher when it is ~25-30 years old (or is retired sooner if its in an accident or has a mechanical issue serious enough it isn't worth repairing)