Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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[eek2121]

I love how people have cognitive dissonance just because there is such huge jump in memory capacity, when the explanation for this jump may be extremely simple .

Apple wouldn’t make such a jump unless profit sees a similar jump. I would love to see a base Mac Mini with 32-36gb of RAM and an 8-12 core CPU for $599, but we both know that won’t happen.

Higher capacity machines will cost significantly more unless Apple found a way to significantly decrease costs, and even then they would likely still charge more just because.

 

[Glo.]

Apple wouldn’t make such a jump unless profit sees a similar jump. I would love to see a base Mac Mini with 32-36gb of RAM and an 8-12 core CPU for $599, but we both know that won’t happen.

Higher capacity machines will cost significantly more unless Apple found a way to significantly decrease costs, and even then they would likely still charge more just because.

If the rumored chip really is base M3 Pro - we should expect it in not 599$ Mac Mini, but 1299-1499$ Mac Mini. 1499$ - because redesign is coming. And usually Apple puts higher prices on redesigned hardware.

If it is plain M3 - then base config with whatever CPU and GPU core config is possible with 12 GB of RAM for 599-699$.

 

[Ajay]

I keep windows and linux desktops for working on but a general use computer and putting around a mac wins. they have their flaws but I've been a buyer of the brand for a very long time. the mac studio is neat but way overboard for my needs. a mbp is fine and will last me 7-8 years and still be useable by the time I need a new one with a battery change in the interim time period. I justify the price with my sanity being kept at bay compared to buying a windows laptop which I do own but have quirks depending on the oem.

Well, now that Unreal Engine 5.2 is coming to M1 Macs - I’m holding out hope that an M(x) Max based Mac will have enough GPU performance for some decent games to be ported.

 

[smalM]

Well, now that Unreal Engine 5.2 is coming to M1 Macs - I’m holding out hope that an M(x) Max based Mac will have enough GPU performance for some decent games to be ported.

For games to be ported it doesn't matter how much GPU performance the Max variant has, only how much the plain M chip has.
Macs are a small niche in the PC market, gamers are a small niche in the Mac market, Max users a a small niche in the Mac gamers market.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Max users a a small niche in the Mac gamers market.

Max users could always pay $200 per game. Their deep pockets won't get shallower. The rich keep getting richer.

 

[A///]

Don't encourage the fruit company, igor. they need not outdo nintendo at their own game.

 

[smalM]

Max users could always pay $200 per game. Their deep pockets won't get shallower. The rich keep getting richer.

I'm not sure if there are not more Max users out there willing to spend $100K for a new car than $200 for a new game...

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's a scary thought. At some point, some A-hole executive could come up with the idea, Hey! Why don't we charge gamers for the number of GPU cores? Or based on resolution? So a normal game sells for $60 but to unlock the higher resolutions you pay more coz obviously you got more money than the 1080p peasants. If that ever happens, I hope the GPU manufacturers give us the option to at least supersample at higher resolutions so we can get a better 1080p image.

The real evil is money. Someone needs to come up with a better concept of economy. The moment a human being is born, someone is penalized (their parents obviously) but also the society at large because not everyone may be able to contribute as much as the average contributor to the welfare and proper functioning of a human society. We end up with leechers (executives, scalpers, pharma bros etc.) making a living through hurting the masses.

 

[Ajay]

For games to be ported it doesn't matter how much GPU performance the Max variant has, only how much the plain M chip has.
Macs are a small niche in the PC market, gamers are a small niche in the Mac market, Max users a a small niche in the Mac gamers market.

Of course you are correct. I misspoke. I would just want the best experience in gameplay - hence the desire for a MAX SoC, such as the Studio has.

 

[Doug S]

If the rumored chip really is base M3 Pro - we should expect it in not 599$ Mac Mini, but 1299-1499$ Mac Mini. 1499$ - because redesign is coming. And usually Apple puts higher prices on redesigned hardware.

If it is plain M3 - then base config with whatever CPU and GPU core config is possible with 12 GB of RAM for 599-699$.

I don't see price increases coming for the Mini, redesign or not. It serves as the cheapest entry point into the Mac ecosystem, so if anything Apple would prefer to make it less expensive to increase installed base (see iPhone SE)

So people can complain all they want about too little RAM and NAND, but Apple's goal is to minimize the cost of entry while not compromising their margins too much. If there's a redesign it would probably be to make it even cheaper to produce though so much of the cost is wrapped in the M3, RAM and NAND whatever they do with the rest - whether more expensive than the current or less - would have little effect on the overall BOM.

The trend towards more expensive wafers from N7->N5, N5->N3 and we presume N3->N2 keeps pressure on Apple to reduce the size of the M3 versus M2, M4 versus M3 etc. over time, unless there's some dramatic value proposition for making it larger. If the Mini increases in price it will be because of the N3 silicon not because of a redesigned case.

That's why I'm highly skeptical about the idea they will depart from the base Apple Silicon chip's 128 bit memory bus, or any big changes in the number of cores. The iPad Pro with its higher retail pricing could tolerate a more expensive chip if it was possible to operate more cores in its power envelope, but if that was the case it would make more sense for them to use the Pro silicon and disable some cores for a "high end version" of the iPad Pro than to force everything using the base silicon to be more expensive.

 

[Mopetar]

Yep. About twice a year I threaten to buy a Mac. Either some Windows update weirdness or some hardware/driver problems drives me crazy. Then I look up a decent Mac mini with everything I want (since they are not upgradeable) and it’s a wallet busting $2600. Huh - only $200 more for a Mac Studio with the better Max SoC 👍 I’d miss PC gaming though.

If you're not trying to run every single triple A title on launch, there's still plenty of games with Mac support. I play a lot of Total War Warhammer on my M1 MBP. Blizzard usually has good Mac support and I have found that a lot of the AA companies have good support. I've also been able to run games like Wasteland 3, Civilization VI, and the newest Pathfinder CRPG without any problems.

 

[Glo.]

I don't see price increases coming for the Mini, redesign or not. It serves as the cheapest entry point into the Mac ecosystem, so if anything Apple would prefer to make it less expensive to increase installed base (see iPhone SE)

So people can complain all they want about too little RAM and NAND, but Apple's goal is to minimize the cost of entry while not compromising their margins too much. If there's a redesign it would probably be to make it even cheaper to produce though so much of the cost is wrapped in the M3, RAM and NAND whatever they do with the rest - whether more expensive than the current or less - would have little effect on the overall BOM.

The trend towards more expensive wafers from N7->N5, N5->N3 and we presume N3->N2 keeps pressure on Apple to reduce the size of the M3 versus M2, M4 versus M3 etc. over time, unless there's some dramatic value proposition for making it larger. If the Mini increases in price it will be because of the N3 silicon not because of a redesigned case.

That's why I'm highly skeptical about the idea they will depart from the base Apple Silicon chip's 128 bit memory bus, or any big changes in the number of cores. The iPad Pro with its higher retail pricing could tolerate a more expensive chip if it was possible to operate more cores in its power envelope, but if that was the case it would make more sense for them to use the Pro silicon and disable some cores for a "high end version" of the iPad Pro than to force everything using the base silicon to be more expensive.

To make 6P/6E, 192 bit and 18 core GPU M3 Apple needs 30 bln xTors. M2 Pro is more transistor demanding if we look at for what it is.

150 mm2 die on N3 would need 200 mln xTors/mm2 to achieve that. And the density is possible to be achieved higher.

 

[Glo.]

Yep. About twice a year I threaten to buy a Mac. Either some Windows update weirdness or some hardware/driver problems drives me crazy. Then I look up a decent Mac mini with everything I want (since they are not upgradeable) and it’s a wallet busting $2600. Huh - only $200 more for a Mac Studio with the better Max SoC 👍 I’d miss PC gaming though.

In my country I can buy M1 Max Mac Studio cheaper than I can buy similarly spec'd Mac Mini. Go figure.

 

[A///]

new macs being announced monday!

 

[Ajay]

Hmm, this should be fun 👍

 

[Heartbreaker]

Maybe Mac Pro?? I really want to see how they make it stand above the Mac Studio.

 

[Glo.]

Maybe Mac Pro?? I really want to see how they make it stand above the Mac Studio.

According to Gurman, its not going to be announced on WWDC.

And if so - I expect that M2 Max Mac Studio will be announced.

 

[A///]

mac pro is gonna be an interesting device. needs to be an pro device, not a half hearted attempt at one. they let the 2013 can languish and then came back in 2019 with a strong contender which gots its ass handed to it for the most by threadripper but the latter missed on a few base qualities xeon had going for it, and apple didn't offer epyc or tr at the time the point is moot. it's not been updated for 4 years now because i suspect apple fully intended to use apple silicon on their next rendition of the pro. i think apple will have tossed power use concerns mostly out the window with the future pro, unleashing the higher capabilities of their hardware. evil cackle and more evil cackle. their new hybrid ar vr headset looks interesting but not at the dollar figure it's supposed to come out at. too rich for my blood

 

[igor_kavinski]

new macs being announced monday!

Time to sell some stuff to afford them!

 

[soresu]

Time to sell some stuff to afford them!

Kidneys for $1,000, lungs for $2,000 😂

 

[A///]

and how it goes is my sprinkler system is clogged and leaking now when it turns on. I'll be spending the weekend digging everything up to trace the issue. my smart mobile doesn't get the best wifi reception. Hopefully I can get it done before monday's event. I'd put some money aside for getting new apple hardware but it looks like all that will be spent on new sprinkler system gear.

 

[smalM]

Just water your plants yourself

 

[A///]

if you're buying me a 300' hose I will. I localised where the hold up is, it's sitting on my bum cutting pipe and redoing heads that takes forever. gonna have to wrangle one of the neighbours with some free beer to help me out.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I have a better suggestion!

 

[A///]

Too far up and it needs to be done at dawn for that spray pattern to be effective getting into the root system and top soil.