Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Doug S]

According to Hector Martin, "One display pipe is larger than the die area of two performance CPUs on the M1 Pro."

That pretty much answers that question. Who here would trade two performance cores for a second monitor? Thought not.

 

[uzzi38]

i find this convo insane ,

Dual screens into a laptop dock is almost 100% standard in many organisation i work with. Desktops have been killed off because of remote working. While you can argue about a nice big ultra wide etc is better then two crap 1080P monitors, two crap 1080P monitors are way cheaper especially when one is already a sunk cost. Laptop in Dock + standalone screen is actually OHS nightmare.

I wonder how many people here work in big org's. I help big organisations design big I.T. things , I have a pretty good view of standard organisational fitouts.

also never underestimate enterprise shitware ( even HTML 5 etc) to only render correctly at one resolution/ Scale setting and that being 1080P, sad but true.

I don't even work in a large organisation and we're the same. I work for a small-ish company of about 120 employees.

 

[uzzi38]

That pretty much answers that question. Who here would trade two performance cores for a second monitor? Thought not.

We're talking about around 6mm^2 here, there's no need to act like it's an impossible improvement to make. From the initial die shots, M2 is already larger than M1 by a few times that.

And besides, this is something all of their competitors support. It's a poor excuse.

 

[uzzi38]

IMO one external monitor is just fine. I actually don't use any, but then I only use the laptop for office-y stuff, not mainline development. I'd bet that 90% of Air buyers / users would have little or no interest in multiple external monitors.

M2 is also used in the 13" MBP. Calling any laptop a "Pro" machine whilst only allowing a single external display is an insult.

 

[Eug]

Well, that’s interesting. Apple has finally brought virtual memory to the iPad, in iPadOS 16.

However, M1 or later plus 256 GB storage or more is required. Not sure why 256 GB would be needed. I suspect that is simply a marketing decision

EDIT:

It seems 128 GB devices may also be supported. The 256 GB cutoff is for devices that start at 64 GB. The 64 GB models are not supported but the next step up for these is 256.

This suits me perfectly. My plan was to get an iPad Air or Pro when it goes OLED, with 128 GB storage. Having swap memory support is the icing on the cake.

 

[Heartbreaker]

i find this convo insane ,

So do I, but for a completely different reason.

Dual screens into a laptop dock is almost 100% standard in many organisation i work with. Desktops have been killed off because of remote working. While you can argue about a nice big ultra wide etc is better then two crap 1080P monitors, two crap 1080P monitors are way cheaper especially when one is already a sunk cost. Laptop in Dock + standalone screen is actually OHS nightmare.

So the company spends another $400 for a more appropriate machine(14" MBP configs equalized). I can't believe the hand wringing on this one.

If you are equipping your staff with Macs, they are likely professionals with a loaded labor rate above $100K. Lets not act like an extra $400 for them on a computer they are expected to use from 3 to 5 years is some kind of real issue.

It's a non issue in a professional setting because, you get the machine you need and $400 extra is nothing.

MBA is aimed at students and home users, not professional users. Heck even my friends teenage daughter for her first computer saved a little more to get a MBP rather than a MBA, because she wanted a more capable machine (Intel Macs then).

Entry level machine doesn't NEED more than one monitor output. It would be nice if it had one, but it doesn't so move on.

 

[Eug]

MBA is aimed at students and home users, not professional users. Heck even my friends teenage daughter for her first computer saved a little more to get a MBP rather than a MBA, because she wanted a more capable machine (Intel Macs then).

I wouldn't be surprised if the MBA is Apple's best seller amongst "professional" users. And if not the best seller, Apple's second best seller.

As mentioned earlier, at my friend's workplace, all the devs get MBAs. It's the creatives that get the MBPs. I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing it's in part because the creatives have more need for stuff like better built-in screens and such.

An M2 model with 24 GB would provide even more reason to stick with an MBA... if they don't need more than one external screen that is.

BTW:

One year on, developers still love Apple Silicon Macs

Where are we after a year into the Apple Silicon transition? I spoke with developers from across the business to find out.

www.computerworld.com

Ken Case, co-founder and CEO of the Omni Group, seems happy with Apple Silicon, telling me, “Apple's new M1-powered Macs have exceeded my expectations. I replaced my desktop with an M1 Mac mini the day I could get my hands on it; and despite the reduced memory available in those first M1s, I immediately experienced the benefit of apps building twice as fast as they were building before.

"I upgraded my laptop to an M1 MacBook Air, and experienced nearly the same performance benefits—while simultaneously gaining incredible efficiency in the form of battery life and reduced heat.”

He could work without fan noise and make it through a full day without charge. “Builds are nearly twice as fast than the fastest Intel Macs,” Case said. “We know this because we immediately ran tests when our first hardware arrived!”

 

[Heartbreaker]

I wouldn't be surprised if the MBA is Apple's best seller amongst "professional" users. And if not the best seller, Apple's second best seller.

When we get off into the weeds of what "professionals" use, we often hear that the iPhone is the computer most used by "professionals".

And I likewise remember all the M1 celebratory stories about how much better it was than Intel machines. But since M1-Pro and M1-Max machines now exist, I would bet a lot more are aiming in that direction.

The bottom line in a professional setting, is $400 one time extra is nothing for your staff equipment that can be depreciated on the books over 3-5 years.

Apple segments often run this way. That extra $400 gets your more GPU, more CPU, (more other co-processor) along with more I/O (including display outputs).

It doesn't matter if you only need one of the many features the next step brings, you don't get to pick and choose. You get them all, or you get none.

So again non issue in a professional setting. They will buy for the features they need, not the cheapest thing available.

 

[Eug]

When we get off into the weeds of what "professionals" use, we often hear that the iPhone is the computer most used by "professionals".

And I likewise remember all the M1 celebratory stories about how much better it was than Intel machines. But since M1-Pro and M1-Max machines now exist, I would bet a lot more are aiming in that direction.

The bottom line in a professional setting, is $400 one time extra is nothing for your staff equipment that can be depreciated on the books over 3-5 years.

Apple segments often run this way. That extra $400 gets your more GPU, more CPU, (more other co-processor) along with more I/O (including display outputs).

It doesn't matter if you only need one of the many features the next step brings, you don't get to pick and choose. You get them all, or you get none.

So again non issue in a professional setting. They will buy for the features they need, not the cheapest thing available.

So because of this thread I just asked my friend about that large workplace where all the developers in his division get MacBook Airs.

He said that almost everyone only has 1 external screen. However, sometimes those screens are large ultrawides.

So basically, even with this crowd of professionals - programmers - the MacBook Air's single external screen support limitation isn't usually an issue.

It seems that extra $400 you're talking about is being put toward an ultrawide monitor, not a higher end computer.

 

[Heartbreaker]

So because of this thread I just asked my friend about that large workplace where all the developers in his division get MacBook Airs.

He said that almost everyone only has 1 external screen. However, sometimes those screens are large ultrawides.

So basically, even with this crowd of professionals, the MacBook Air's single external screen support limitation isn't an issue.

It seems that extra $400 you're talking about is being put toward an ultrawide monitor, not a higher end computer.

It's just one anecdote.

And it doesn't contradict what I said, which is that what everyone is hand wringing over, is a complete non issue in a professional environment. If they need dual monitors they will buy M-Pro, M-Max, etc, machines that have that capability.

It's funny how comments swing to extremes. Most of the time, I often see people posting about their companies saying work is buying them super overkill Mac laptops that cost $3000-$4000. But now people want to complain about some missing feature on the entry level laptops and suddenly organizations are just using entry level laptops.

My personal work experience in a devshop was all desktops PCs (we'd sign out laptops on an as needed basis but this was long before Covid), and they always aimed way above the mid range. It doesn't make much financial sense to save a few hundred dollars on HW, and cost potentially hundreds of hours of compile wait times over the life of the machine.

"Great news boss: we saved $400 on HW, and it only takes devs about 10 minutes longer to compile/day..."

That's potentially 200 hours of developers time over the life of the machine. Potentially $10 000 in lost developer productivity to save $400 in HW cost that could have been written off as equipment depreciation. I realize that it's not entirely lost time, but that should give some idea of how nonsensical it is to limit Dev HW to save a buck.

I wouldn't work in any place so poorly managed that they equipped developers with lowest end machines.

 

[Ajay]

And volume production was always solidly in the second half of 2022, in other words, too late for Apple to use it for that year's iPhones.

2019-10-28

TSMC begins construction of next-gen 3nm fab

It is aiming for volume production from the 30 hectare facility late 2022 - to early 2023.

hexus.net

2020-4-17

TSMC Ramps 5nm, Discloses 3nm to Pack Over a Quarter-Billion Transistors Per Square Millimeter

TSMC reports a flat Q1 amid the COVID-19 pandemic, ramps its 5nm node with good yield and discloses key 3-nanometer (N3) details. N3 will be a full node jump over N5 and is expected to offer over a quarter-billion transistors per each millimeter square of silicon.

fuse.wikichip.org

HVM was eventually delayed a further couple months while TSMC ironed out some issues, but N3 was never going to arrive in time for the 2022 A series chips. The A15 on N5P was already fully validated and the iPhone 13 designs locked by September 2020. And the A16 on N4 was probably taped out in Q2'21.

Thanks, my bad. I guess I shouldn't trust my memory so much anymore. So, probably no big improvements till A17. Apple's vaunted efficiency, well deserved, could also be slowing down after the rapid rate in which they pushed their perf/watt far beyond everyone else's.

Also seems like TSMC made a bad bet on sticking with FinFET for the N3 node. Fortunately, they have a AAA rated group of process engineers at their disposal.

 

[Eug]

It's just one anecdote.

And it doesn't contradict what I said, which is that what everyone is hand wringing over, is a complete non issue in a professional environment. If they need dual monitors they will buy M-Pro, M-Max, etc, machines that have that capability.

It's funny how comments swing to extremes. Most of the time, I often see people posting about their companies saying work is buying them super overkill Mac laptops that cost $4000-$5000. But now people want to complain about some missing feature on the entry level laptops and suddenly organizations are just using entry level laptops.

My main point here is that I think the idea that most companies will usually spring for high end MacBook Pros over MacBook Airs for developers just doesn't ring true, esp. for grunt entry level coders. They need good CPU power and RAM, and the M2 MacBook Air has both of those, along with awesome battery life.

I agree that the single monitor limitation isn't a big deal for the majority of them, not because their bosses will get them a MacBook Pro, but because their bosses will get them a 34" ultrawide monitor.

And come to think of it, it's actually cheaper to get an M2 MacBook Air with more than 16 GB RAM + ultrawide than it is to get a 14" MacBook Pro with more than 16 GB RAM with no external monitor at all.

 

[Heartbreaker]

My main point here is that I think the idea that most companies will usually spring for high end MacBook Pros over MacBook Airs for developers just doesn't ring true, esp. for grunt entry level coders. They need good CPU power and RAM, and the M2 MacBook Air has both of those, along with awesome battery life.

I am not suggesting high end, but mid range M1-Pro machines, for a few hundred more.

I think the idea should ring true for management that has more than few functioning brain cells.

M1 for developers back when M1-Pro didn't exist were a good option.

But M1-Pro compile times are up to 50% faster, and that kind of productivity gain for developers would likely pay for itself in months, and yield massive saving over the life of the machine.

Depending on the amount of compilation you are potentially talking about hundreds of developers hours saved over the life of the machine. Hundreds of developer hours (x loaded labor rate) of even entry level developers is an order of magnitude more expensive than the HW upgrade.

 

[Eug]

I am not suggesting high end, but mid range M1-Pro machines, for a few hundred more.

I think the idea should ring true for management that has more than few functioning brain cells.

M1 for developers back when M1-Pro didn't exist were a good option.

But M1-Pro compile times are up to 50% faster, and that kind of productivity gain for developers would likely pay for itself in months, and yield massive saving over the life of the machine.

Depending on the amount of compilation you are potentially talking about hundreds of developers hours saved over the life of the machine. Hundreds of developer hours (x loaded labor rate) of even entry level developers is an order of magnitude more expensive than the HW upgrade.

But most coders aren’t going to be compiling Linux distros 5X a day or whatever, and M2 is already going to be significantly faster than M1.

M1 Pro 10-core plus 32 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD costs $800 more than an M2 Air with 24 GB RAM with 512 GB SSD. While what you say makes sense in some cases, $800 will be enough to sway a ton of bean counters, esp. if most of the time the computers are at near idle.

 

[Heartbreaker]

$800 will be enough to sway a ton of bean counters, esp. if most of the time the computers are at near idle.

Sure, the penny-wise, pound-foolish ones...

 

[repoman27]

I think the argument regarding Apple's design decisions with the M2 MacBooks is more nuanced than simply pay extra $$$ if you want to use more than one external display.

I don't mind paying more for a 14 or 16-inch MacBook Pro, but they both missed the mark in terms of form-factor for me. I've been holding out for something closer to my personal Goldilocks dimensions. I do have to leave the office with my laptop a fair amount, and I don't want to be lugging a boat anchor in those situations. The 16-inch is just way to big, and the 14-inch suffers several regressions compared to my current 15-inch. If I'm going to make trade-offs like that, I want radical portability, and the 14-inch MBP certainly doesn't provide that. The new M2 MacBook Air is more like a spiritual successor to the 12-inch MacBook in some ways. It doesn't quite reach that sub 1 kg ultra-portable mark, but it also has a bigger screen, two Thunderbolt ports, MagSafe, and a 2 TB SSD option. It's pretty sweet.

Apple also made the decision to go with two huge display pipes that can accommodate their Retina HDR vision of the future, rather than four smaller pipes that could be combined to support those higher resolutions / bit-depths. This makes sense from their perspective, but it's not the trade-off that a significant percentage of their customers would have opted for given the choice. Aside from the Pro Display XDR and Studio Display, there are practically zero external display options that have "retina" pixel densities or support > 4K resolutions at 30 bpc. There are also a lot of Mac users who have a significant investment in high-end, non-Apple / non-retina, 2560 x 1440 or 3840 x 2160 displays. If the new M2 MacBooks could support 2x 4K external displays or 1x 6K, there would probably be zero complaints regarding display output capabilities.

I also find the 24 GB maximum DRAM configuration curious. They could have used 2x 16 GB LDPPR5-6400 packages in a dual-rank configuration for a 32 GB option by simply making the SoC substrate a little bigger. This sort of makes you realize that this is an iPad chip first, and a Mac chip second.

 

[Heartbreaker]

... my personal Goldilocks dimensions...

I never find these kind of discussions useful. Sure it would be nice if someone built things exactly to our fantasy specifications, but that isn't how the world works.

Products are built to large segments at specific price points. Sometimes you fit, and sometimes you chose your lesser of evils.

I'm on an enthusiast car forum and I see this all the time. Though I call them "personal Homer cars, instead of Goldilocks.

 

[repoman27]

I never find these kind of discussions useful. Sure it would be nice if someone built things exactly to our fantasy specifications, but that isn't how the world works.

Products are built to large segments at specific price points. Sometimes you fit, and sometimes you chose your lesser of evils.

I'm on an enthusiast car forum and I see this all the time. Though I call them "personal Homer cars, instead of Goldilocks.

Yeah, but if you read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about building a Homer car (which is a whole 'nother conversation). I was talking about waiting to see what the forthcoming redesigns of the M1 MacBook models brought to the table before selecting whatever was best aligned with my personal preferences.

I have engineering background, I'm cognizant of many of the trade-offs involved in these design decisions, and that's one of the reasons I tend to be drawn to Apple hardware. They clearly think about every. single. detail. Most of the time I agree with their logic / decisions, even when it results in products that are not necessarily ideal for me specifically. We can see how the display pipe issue with the M1/M2 likely arose, but it still represents a regression compared to the Intel Macs that these machines replace. It's a noteworthy difference on the spec sheet, and while it only affects a subset of customers, it will definitely factor into buying decisions for some, myself included.

 

[Roland00Address]

That pretty much answers that question. Who here would trade two performance cores for a second monitor? Thought not.

I consider that a false choice. If the only trade off is about 5.33 mm2 extra die size, you add the extra die size. It is the cost of doing business. It is only 4.5% larger area for the M1 basic (not the M1 Pro or the M2)

There has to be another trade off like more power consumption / less battery life or else this just makes Apple look bad.

 

[Doug S]

So do I, but for a completely different reason.



So the company spends another $400 for a more appropriate machine(14" MBP configs equalized). I can't believe the hand wringing on this one.

Not only that, but they are supposedly squeezing pennies by buying their developers the cheapest possible laptop, and then splash out for dual monitors for everyone? That makes no sense.

Either a company is run by cheapskates, or it isn't. I don't think a company run by cheapskates is equipping its people with dual monitors. Companies like that don't even give their employees enough desk space for two monitors, they want to squeeze more people in per sq ft and save on rent!

 

[Mopetar]

Well, that’s interesting. Apple has finally brought virtual memory to the iPad, in iPadOS 16.

Did you mean paging? I'm assuming that Apple has always had some form of virtual memory, because making apps use a shared address space is a nightmare.

I've never done any development for iOS so I have no actual idea, but it would be odd for them not to utilize virtual memory, even if they didn't allow writing pages to disk.

 

[Eug]

Did you mean paging? I'm assuming that Apple has always had some form of virtual memory, because making apps use a shared address space is a nightmare.

I've never done any development for iOS so I have no actual idea, but it would be odd for them not to utilize virtual memory, even if they didn't allow writing pages to disk.

Yes I mean what Apple calls "Virtual Memory Swap".

iPadOS 16 takes the versatility of iPad even further

Apple today previewed iPadOS 16, a major update that makes the iPad experience even more versatile.

www.apple.com

With Virtual Memory Swap, iPad storage can be used to expand the available memory for all apps, and delivers up to 16 gigabytes of memory for the most demanding apps, helping to make multitasking absolutely seamless.

This is supported on:
2022 M1 10.9" iPad Air 5 (8 GB RAM), 256 GB storage
2021 M1 11" iPad Pro (8 GB RAM), any storage
2021 M1 12.9" iPad Pro (8/16 GB RAM), any storage

EDIT:

Here’s why Stage Manager only works on M1 iPads

Stage Manager is one of the best features in iPadOS 16. But why does it only work on M1 iPads?

www.digitaltrends.com

Why Stage Manager is limited to M1 iPads

We reached out to Apple to ask why Stage Manager is limited to the M1-powered iPads, and we got a reasonable answer. According to the company, Stage Manager is limited to M1 chips mainly due to iPadOS 16’s new fast memory swap feature, which Stage Manager uses extensively. This lets apps convert storage into RAM (effectively), and each app can ask for up to 16GB of memory. Since Stage Manager enables you to have up to eight apps going at once — and because each app could ask for 16GB of memory — it demands a lot of resources. As such, the new window management feature needs M1 for smooth performance.

 

[Doug S]

Support for paging helps increase the efficiency of RAM usage even if you don't ever actually page out anything active. Depending on how fast the flash is some light paging might not even be noticeable.

Back in the days of paging to HDDs it was a pretty obvious cliff. These days it is more of a hill you run down a bit out of control but at least not falling to your death.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Why would an app need 16GB of memory, virtual or otherwise? What are they expecting people to do on their iPads???

 

[Roland00Address]

Why would an app need 16GB of memory, virtual or otherwise? What are they expecting people to do on their iPads???

Photoshop, Video Editing, etc.

The iPads now have a M1 and keyboard and mouse support, with Thunderbolt Support plus HDMI Support.

The limits of the iPads with 8GB of Ram and more (so $600for new models, the 16gb ram models are $1500 and higher) are now the amount of ports and the interface / operating system.