Apple Pay / Google Wallet: Not So Fast

[dawheat]

Most Android phones are budget phones.

Apple is late but it's extremely easy to tell which ones have NFC.

The top selling Android phones in the US are not budget phones but either flagship or ex-flagship devices (Galaxy S5, HTC One, LG G3, S4, G2, Note 4, Note 3, Moto X, etc).

And even new low-end phones like the Moto G have NFC built-in.

I was referring to the true budget market outside the US (China, India) which don't have NFC as they're basically dumbphone replacements.

 

[sweenish]

I still don't see the advantage of any of these iffy payment scheme's for physical payments. What's the advantage of Google wallet/Apple pay/insertpaymentschemehere over using a contactless credit card?

Three seconds of thinking should have at least got you to "all my cards on one device" instead of carrying all my cards.

I don't even like the one membership card, debit, and credit card I carry. I don't even take one of my other credit cards with me. If I could stop carrying a wallet, that'd be fantastic.

Think of women who constantly switch bags and wallets. All they have to do now is remember their phone.

You didn't see an advantage because it probably doesn't equate to an advantage for you specifically, therefore how could it be an advantage to anyone else?

 

[dawheat]

This whole smart phone payment system is a disaster. Google Wallet, Apple Pay (name is mis-leading btw, it is really "iPay"), ISIS (really?), CurrenC.....are all money grabbing gimmicks.

Nothing is better than a Chip&Pin credit card at this moment. Nothing. As long as you have good credit and knows your finances, nothing beats it.

What exactly does good credit have to do with chip & pin? Apple Pay/Google Wallet are all built on top of credit cards so demographics or credit worthiness are a wash.

Mobile payments are the future, but it's still not quite there yet. To do so, the following has to occur:

- all cards from major card brands can be added - not all cards work today
- MCC is correctly passed and tracked on all transactions - MCC not correctly passed most of the time
- EMV level security - included with Apple Pay, coming to other wallets soon
- single authentication method (biometric, PIN, etc) to use all cards
- usable at all credit card accepting merchants - I believe there is a mandatory milestone coming up for merchants to upgrade their machines in the US

So the pieces are there and it's not THAT far away. It's just not as close as many of us would like.

 

[ControlD]

Mobile pay, should it take off, will be what kicks the smart watch into truly useful territory. I don't see me ever being all that comfortable using my phone to check out just from an awkwardness perspective, but simply bumping a watch on a reader would be pretty OK.

 

[Sooon]

The fee from Apple Pay that the banks pay is minuscule (reportedly 1.5 cents per $100). If it helps to prevent just a tiny number of fraudulent charges, it can pay for itself easily (preventing just one case of a $50 fraudulent charge would cover the additional fees associated with processing $333k worth of Apple Pay transactions). Also, the hope for the banks is that more people would use Apple Pay in situations where they previously would have used cash, generating more fees for them.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

When I drive up to a toll booth, I would be hesitant to hold my iPhone by the edge outside the window just to pay toll. If I lose my Amex, they Fedex it tomorrow morning, or I just use another credit card.

Everytime someone has to hold an iPhone in an awkward position to make payment is a disaster waiting to happen. There are enough clutter at my local Starbucks, let along kids running behind me at Target. One bump is all it takes to drop the iPhone. Now the phone is not only bent, it is shattered.

And how hard is it to use an NFC terminal? Why all this fear about dropping? I get it that when you're on a car driving by a toll booth, that's not ideal, but at Target? I don't see why not.

The ideal solution to your car issue is for your state to get on board with toll tags so you guys can drive through without stopping. I'm surprised this isn't more used around the US?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

If the wallet thing is that much of a problem just get a thin one and you don't even need to take the card out.
Its not just that the thumb thing takes longer (it does) but it makes the transaction more ungainly.
Imagine getting on to a crowded bus. Which is easier, slapping your wallet against the big yellow circle whilst walking on or placing your phone on the circle and then pressing the button on your phone?

So regarding that transit card question, perhaps the security can be tailored to the type of transaction. If it's a transit card, no need for TouchId, if its a credit card payment, yes to TouchID. I know some people who stick their transit card behind their phone by tucking it in the case (clearly not Google Wallet users). Ends up being pretty effective since most people are on their phones in the subway anyway.

But as someone else mentioned, we really should be moving away from the concept of carrying 20 cards. I have my AAA card, my health insurance card, my debit card, my ID, my school ID (Asians can always get away with looking like students still), 2 credit cards, sometimes the corporate card, etc. I try to minimize the cards i carry and I throw out the corporate card when I can, but I end up forgetting it more often as a result. I'd love for a way to go digital someday so that I don't have to worry about forgetting my wallet.

Yeah it's close but the easiest one doesn't involve having to buy £500s worth of hardware to make it work.

True, but lets not forget, most if not all high end phones have NFC today anyway. I'm not buying a phone specifically for the NFC feature, but if it has the feature, why not take advantage of it?

Which is great until your battery dies.

True, but hasn't battery use in phones improved? 3 years ago we were struggling to meet 1 day of heavy use, and now we're far better off. I have yet to be in a phone-dead situation. I also imagine it will be some time before we get rid of the physical wallet, but if we have the technology to do so, why not? It's like phone and snail mail still exist, but it doesn't mean it can't live side by side with mobile chat and email.

 

[s44]

because I had to type in my PIN for Wallet

Settings > Wallet PIN > PIN timeout > Never

(Default is 1 day. For the paranoid, or those who carry unlocked, there's also a 15 minute option.)

 

[HumblePie]

Three seconds of thinking should have at least got you to "all my cards on one device" instead of carrying all my cards.

I don't even like the one membership card, debit, and credit card I carry. I don't even take one of my other credit cards with me. If I could stop carrying a wallet, that'd be fantastic.

Think of women who constantly switch bags and wallets. All they have to do now is remember their phone.

You didn't see an advantage because it probably doesn't equate to an advantage for you specifically, therefore how could it be an advantage to anyone else?

Bingo.

The reason for the NFC phones is being able to only carry one thing. If we can eventually get reward and other cards into electronic format that would be even better. More so with keyless fob style entry apps. Here is what I envision in the future.

My phone unlocking my front door when I approach from outside or locking it when I walk away. Then unlocking my car when I approach from the outside. So then I cab push button start my car without needing a key. I can use the phone to pay for anything and keep tabs on my rewards everywhere I care. I need no longer carry keys for anything that doesn't require a dumb-lock, or a wallet for anything. I can keep a small cash clip for emergencies only where I need cash and that's about it. 1 thing to worry about carrying is the reason for all this as an eventuality.

 

[Ramses]

I hope they find some creative security. Otherwise robbing people in the future is going to be awesome.

 

[openwheel]

Three seconds of thinking should have at least got you to "all my cards on one device" instead of carrying all my cards.

I don't even like the one membership card, debit, and credit card I carry. I don't even take one of my other credit cards with me. If I could stop carrying a wallet, that'd be fantastic.

Think of women who constantly switch bags and wallets. All they have to do now is remember their phone.

You didn't see an advantage because it probably doesn't equate to an advantage for you specifically, therefore how could it be an advantage to anyone else?

But all my credit cards ARE in one device: my wallet which carries other important items.

Savvy credit card users use different cards for different types of payment/stores. If I have to open my phone to choose which card to use then that defeats the point of streamlining and consolidating credit cards.

I get the "cool" factor of using smart phone for payment. I just don't see the advantages outweighing disadvantages from consumer's cost point of view. What am I actually saving? Does it make my life better?

Imagine the questions at the check out line: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, CurrenC, credit card, debit card or cash? Sorry your coupon doesn't work with Apple Pay, do you have another app?

Retailers now need credit card terminals, NFC terminals, and who knows what else is needed.

What's wrong with a chip&pin credit card again?

 

[openwheel]

And how hard is it to use an NFC terminal? Why all this fear about dropping? I get it that when you're on a car driving by a toll booth, that's not ideal, but at Target? I don't see why not.

The ideal solution to your car issue is for your state to get on board with toll tags so you guys can drive through without stopping. I'm surprised this isn't more used around the US?

Toll tags are for locals only. My concern with tolls is for people on travel status. When I stop to pay toll in Italy, Apple Pay makes absolutely no sense over a simple chip&pin. It's just a shattered screen waiting to happen.

 

[openwheel]

Think of women who constantly switch bags and wallets. All they have to do now is remember their phone.

Obviously, you don't know women. Boy you are in big trouble if you think mobile payment is going to solve that problem..:biggrin:

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Settings > Wallet PIN > PIN timeout > Never

(Default is 1 day. For the paranoid, or those who carry unlocked, there's also a 15 minute option.)

That's fine, I want some sort of protection. I'm saying that I lost out against someone swiping a card because they were faster. But it's not like I was ages slower having to type in a PIN.

The only improvement I could ask for is if NFC could be activated with the screen off similar to the iPhone. Oddly enough in 2.3, this was possible on the Nexus S... but not anymore.

 

[sweenish]

But all my credit cards ARE in one device: my wallet which carries other important items.

Savvy credit card users use different cards for different types of payment/stores. If I have to open my phone to choose which card to use then that defeats the point of streamlining and consolidating credit cards.

I get the "cool" factor of using smart phone for payment. I just don't see the advantages outweighing disadvantages from consumer's cost point of view. What am I actually saving? Does it make my life better?

Imagine the questions at the check out line: Apple Pay, Google Wallet, CurrenC, credit card, debit card or cash? Sorry your coupon doesn't work with Apple Pay, do you have another app?

Retailers now need credit card terminals, NFC terminals, and who knows what else is needed.

What's wrong with a chip&pin credit card again?

What happened to refuting the other points I made?

You're still looking at it strictly from your own use case.

But the wallet, that was clever. So I should always carry my wallet and phone, screw making my life easier. Maybe I'll go get my discman and garmin nuvi out while I'm at it.

After all, how could a cell phone possibly replace those, they're just as easy to use.

 

[openwheel]

What happened to refuting the other points I made?

You're still looking at it strictly from your own use case.

But the wallet, that was clever. So I should always carry my wallet and phone, screw making my life easier. Maybe I'll go get my discman and garmin nuvi out while I'm at it.

After all, how could a cell phone possibly replace those, they're just as easy to use.

No need to pout. It's just common sense. You are welcome to break out the Walkman and Garmin. Going retro is kind of hip these days, like the iPhone. :thumbsup:

You are arguing your point by assuming those against you are isolated cases. I am very sorry, but that's false. I am a normal guy who needs his ID, 3 credit cards, 1 debit card, insurance cards, and some cash. My wallet is relatively thin and not cumbersome to carry. There is no way any of these mobile payment solutions are going to simplify my life any further than what I have already setup. They further complicate things.

 

[mavere]

...

This reads like you tried to cram every possible negative thought into a post without bothering to check whether the knee-jerk even makes sense.

[Google Wallet, Apple Pay] will be used only either by low income people who want to be hip or people with low credit scores.

wut

It will reduce cash back/miles/points incentives for those with excellent credit scores, higher costs of goods, or both.

No it won't. These systems merely provide a temporary, anonymized virtual stand-in for your credit card. Your "actual" credit card is still being used.

[credit card] fraud is not an issue whatsoever

WUT

 

[openwheel]

No it won't. These systems merely provide a temporary, anonymized virtual stand-in for your credit card. Your "actual" credit card is still being used.

What? (this is the correct spelling btw)

 

[Eug]

It's stupid NOT to carry your credit cards with you, esp. If you're traveling.

Even in countries where NFC is the norm, occasionally you'll find retailers that don't support it, or more commonly, retailers where the NFC equipment is broken.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

It's stupid NOT to carry your credit cards with you, esp. If you're traveling.

Even in countries where NFC is the norm, occasionally you'll find retailers that don't support it, or more commonly, retailers where the NFC equipment is broken.

Well duh, but convenience is the key. Go read Flyertalk and people talk about ways to be a road ninja.

I've learned a lot and now I'm comfortable showing up in a foreign country with $0 in cash. I just hit up the ATM with my Schwab debit card with no foreign transaction fees and no ATM fees and voila. I've never done that for China, but I decided to give it a whirl.

It almost screwed me in Hong Kong though at the border crossing because there was only 1 ATM and it was rejecting me. Luckily the Octopus card lets you go negative so I was able to get cash once I arrived in the city at any other ATM.

With that said, yeah, its not the best idea beta testing cutting edge technology in foreign places. Have a backup at least. Worst comes to worst I probably could've traded RMB for HKD to get me a MTR fare in that situation.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

No need to pout. It's just common sense. You are welcome to break out the Walkman and Garmin. Going retro is kind of hip these days, like the iPhone. :thumbsup:

You are arguing your point by assuming those against you are isolated cases. I am very sorry, but that's false. I am a normal guy who needs his ID, 3 credit cards, 1 debit card, insurance cards, and some cash. My wallet is relatively thin and not cumbersome to carry. There is no way any of these mobile payment solutions are going to simplify my life any further than what I have already setup. They further complicate things.

This is you using the words hip + iPhone every chance you get.

I don't get why you are so against some ideas. If you need all those things, then fine, but for others who prefer a 1 stop solution for everything and minimize pocket bulk, its not a bad idea. I am a cashback guy, but I've learned to slim down my wallet. 2-3 credit cards max plus debit card. I have photos of my AAA card and my health insurance card. $40 - $60 should be enough to last weeks as long as I try to avoid cash only places. My friends also try to consolidate payments so 1 person pays when we go out and we just Venmo/PayPal each other back.

I maintain my stance that mobile payments are a good thing. They aren't replacing wallets overnight, and that was my stance before as well. Its technology and progress. I think you're trying to build up a strawman about how hyped its getting.

Toll tags are for locals only. My concern with tolls is for people on travel status. When I stop to pay toll in Italy, Apple Pay makes absolutely no sense over a simple chip&pin. It's just a shattered screen waiting to happen.

Well yeah, if I'm in a foreign country, I'm not about to use NFC payments. Obviously one would carry a credit card there, and if anything 99% of Americans need to worry about having a chip + PIN card. Heck I have 2 chipped cards, but they're chip + signature, not chip+PIN. They've worked fine in most places, but I hear they struggle with unmanned kiosks. I'll have to try at a rail kiosk next time.

Google Wallet, Apple Pay and any other layer of payment system are doomed to fail anyway. It will be used only either by low income people who want to be hip or people with low credit scores.

Just another layer for sucking fees. The consumer pays for it one way or another. It will reduce cash back/miles/points incentives for those with excellent credit scores, higher costs of goods, or both.

So, why would I want to support these payment systems? I can choose a credit card out of my wallet faster than changing it on a touch screen, and fraud is not an issue whatsoever, so what's the advantage for another layer of fee suckers?

WTF? Low income people with low credit scores can't even get credit cards. Low income people with low credit scores use things like Vanilla Reload and My Vanilla Debit.

 

[mavere]

What? (this is the correct spelling btw)

Several posts made in this topic, and you didn't even know how the process works. Shocker.

Apple Pay works by communicating with participating banks to store a token inside a chip inside your phone. This token (tied to your fingerprint) represents the credit card, and as far as most are concerned, it is your credit card. That's precisely why Apple Pay worked with CVS/Rite Aid's payment systems even though those retailers would obviously prefer it not to.

(relevant)

 

[sweenish]

No need to pout. It's just common sense. You are welcome to break out the Walkman and Garmin. Going retro is kind of hip these days, like the iPhone. :thumbsup:

You are arguing your point by assuming those against you are isolated cases. I am very sorry, but that's false. I am a normal guy who needs his ID, 3 credit cards, 1 debit card, insurance cards, and some cash. My wallet is relatively thin and not cumbersome to carry. There is no way any of these mobile payment solutions are going to simplify my life any further than what I have already setup. They further complicate things.

And you're also a "normal" guy with blinders on as to how things are progressing?

New technology is rocky when it starts out? You don't say? But that must mean that it's going nowhere, according to you.

At least you got a grasp on this whole internet fad.

 

[Ramses]

this thread has almost convinced me to start using cash again.

 

[Eug]

I always carry cash on me. Always. Even in North America. Even in Canada where contact less payment is almost everywhere, and credit card or debit card support is near ubiquitous.

P.S. Chip and signature seems pointless. If you're going to have a chip, it should at least be chip and pin, but preferably contact less payment via RFID.