Apple Mac Mini Review (mid 2010): My Take

[poofyhairguy]

That's funny, I'm a consumer and I didn't know that they were overpriced.

Is a faster processor going to play my movie quicker? ( I hope not)

Funny you mention that. In 2010, when we swim in HD content, having a better computer CAN help play video.

I have a friend who bought an iMac in 2008 - same time I built a desktop hackintosh (that was more powerful for less money of course but that is besides the point).

Today his iMac has problems playing the HD content I give him, and his GPU is not supported for hardware acceleration. His only option to play HD content? Sell it and buy another damn iMac.

My options for my hackintosh built around the same time? I was able to upgrade BOTH the CPU and the GPU to take full advantage of OSX's x264 hardware acceleration.

My ability to do that is the EXACT value that Apple DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE IN THEIR MACS because they would rather people just re-buy them every few years.

That exact situation (overpaying up front for less options) is what makes desktop Macs a very poor value for a nerdy consumer, which is my whole argument.

Most of the non-computer nerds that I know could care less about some numbers on a spec sheet. They want something that has minimal maintenance and just works.

Look, I am just as quick as any nerd to celebrate the ignorance of the masses when it comes to computer buying. If it wasn't for normal people not paying attention to specs then there wouldn't be ANY margins in the computer industry. It is the general ignorance of computers (and the overpaying for them) that starts off the economy of scale that allow things like the hot deal forum to exist. Them getting screwed by Apple helps me afford my next Macbook.

But does that mean that specs suddenly don't matter just because most people are ignorant of them, or that if you are gonna debate computers in a technical forum such ignorance is welcome?

Hell no.

That's where Apple has the competition by the balls.

Apple does have value in their lineup. If you get a Macbook Pro the day of a hardware update (and you don't pay for overpriced upgrades from Apple) then often times you are getting a deal.

I am not anti-Mac- every non Netbook laptop I have is a Mac. Not only are they sometimes actually price competitive for what they are, but they offer special laptop features like magnetic connectors that you cannot find equivalents of. You won't find me trolling an Mac laptop thread.

It is the Mac desktop line - the mini, iMac, and the Mac Pro- that are the embarrassingly overpriced Macs.

The best of these is the Mac Pro. Its overpriced, but at least its a real professional machine. If the boss is paying, nothing wrong with one of those I guess.

The worst of these is the iMac, since they are just Macbooks strapped to a bigger monitor and stuck on a desk. For the price of the base level iMac I can build a hackintosh that destroys the top one.

The whole "point" of an iMac is to take advantage of computer ignorance among consumers- their ONLY advantage over other desktops on the market is aesthetics (and OSX, which is not as exclusive as people make it to be).

The Mini used to be a value in the small computing space, but that advantage is now gone. Now it is just another overpriced Mac desktop that suckers people in with its "cute" size.

Look, I am not going to debate Apple's business plan of taking advantage of computer ignorance. Its a brilliant and evil plan to get people to overpay for pretty junk.

You just can't argue that any of these Mac desktops are a "deal" in any way, and you can't ignore that hackintosh proves that there is nothing special about any of them other than their looks.

And more than anything, you are NOT going to get me to celebrate computer ignorance for anything more than economies of scale- if there is a nerd on this forum that buys an iMac because "its pretty" (unless its to showoff to clients or something) they should be ashamed of themselves because they know better.

My wife, who was a proud windows maniac before I met her, told me to buy a $3,000 dollar Mac Pro instead of build a PC for $800 to use as a desktop just a couple weeks ago.

And I could build a $800 hackintosh that came within 30% of the performance of your Mac Pro. I could build a $2000 Hackintosh that would leave your $3000 Mac Pro in dust. In fact, the insane non-value of the Mac desktop lines is why the hackintoshing community exists.

Hard to put a price on things like not getting viruses/malware, design, user experience.

Actually I can. The Snow Leopard box set is around $130. Works great on my hackintosh army.

There is no "deals" in the Mac desktop line, just varying levels of rip offs....

 

[poofyhairguy]

If there was no such thing as a hackintosh somehow I think you people would find more value in macs lower end hardware.

And if Macs were anything more than your average Dells in prettier boxes, then hackintoshes wouldn't exist.

Of course if we didn't have options besides Apple for OSX suddenly their overpriced boxen WOULD be values- just like the only drug dealer on the block can charge what he wants for his goods. Its called "what the market can bear" and I for one am glad the hackintosh community has screwed over every attempt by Apple to lock down OSX to prevent such a closed market.

Since the switch to Intel, there are very few things that make desktop Macs "special" outside of looks......

 

[erikistired]

I didnt realize that OSX just works and Windows 7 is a broken POS...

actually windows 7 is the reason i came back to the windows world. vista however, was a broken POS that was patched up to work pretty much okay.

that being said, os x is still a lot more intuitive than windows 7 is. one of the better things apple does is focus on the UI and user experience.

 

[JSt0rm]

hmm well the switch too intel made them better in my eyes. You are paying for the os. If dell has a dell os that media professionals used almost exclusively then they could and would charge more for them.

 

[poofyhairguy]

hmm well the switch too intel made them better in my eyes.

Well yeah. Power PC sucks in a general purpose computer.

You are paying for the os.

Yep, just like I do every time I hackintosh. Luckily Apple sells it separate from their overpriced Macs at a very reasonable price (compared to Windows):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-078-_-Product


Oh wait, you were implying that its worth overpaying for desktop Macs because of OSX. That I disagree with....

 

[TheStu]

Well yeah. Power PC sucks in a general purpose computer.



Yep, just like I do every time I hackintosh. Luckily Apple sells it separate from their overpriced Macs at a very reasonable price (compared to Windows):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-078-_-Product


Oh wait, you were implying that its worth overpaying for desktop Macs because of OSX. That I disagree with....

Just as a thought experiment, I propose the following scenario;

I would like a new computer, and I would like it to run OS X. I have noticed the new iMac 27", and after looking at it in the store, I feel that I want/need a monitor that size, and the look of the machine is gorgeous.

Now, either here, or in a PM to me, please show me a homebuilt system that matches or exceeds the iMac 27.

$1700
Core i3 (Dual) @ 3.2 GHz
4GB DDR3
1TB HDD
ATi 5670 GPU
2560*1440 display
Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
Bluetooth/Wireless N
Webcam

$2000
Core i5 (Quad) @ 2.8 GHz
4GB DDR3
1TB HDD
ATi 5750 GPU
2560*1440 display
Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
Bluetooth/Wireless N
Webcam

The only terms are thus;

It must be cheaper than the iMac
It must equal or exceed all specifications
It must have equal or greater resolution, in a single monitor
It must run OS X 10.6

Bonus:

Small form factor case

I came up with a base price of about $1500, that includes CPU, monitor ($1000 Dell/Apple 27", there is also the $1150 LG 30"), RAM, HDD, GPU, OS, wireless card and BT card. The keyboard/mouse could be anywhere from $30 for a cheap combo to much, much more. The case and PSU I left out, and I also didn't choose speakers. So for the entry level one, that leaves about $200 for case, PSU, keyboard/mouse, and speakers.

You have $500 available for upgraded CPU, case, PSU, keyboard/mouse and speakers for the upper tier iMac (easy task, I might just give that one to you).

I am almost positive that you can beat the 21.5" iMac in price, and a system that beats the Mini on spec (but not looks) has already been found. The 27" due to its unique screen I think is harder to match in value.

If a home user needs as much power as the Mac Pro delivers, then they are either building it themselves, or writing it off anyway.

 

[JSt0rm]

Well yeah. Power PC sucks in a general purpose computer.



Yep, just like I do every time I hackintosh. Luckily Apple sells it separate from their overpriced Macs at a very reasonable price (compared to Windows):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-078-_-Product


Oh wait, you were implying that its worth overpaying for desktop Macs because of OSX. That I disagree with....

There is an expectation that you are using your retail copy of osx on a apple computer and I'm sure that goes into the numbers you see there. The fact that you hack it onto another computer dilutes the original ip and makes it worth less.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Ok. I am going to take up your challenge.

Now, either here, or in a PM to me, please show me a homebuilt system that matches or exceeds the iMac 27.

$1700
Core i3 (Dual) @ 3.2 GHz
4GB DDR3
1TB HDD
ATi 5670 GPU
2560*1440 display
Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
Bluetooth/Wireless N
Webcam

$2000
Core i5 (Quad) @ 2.8 GHz
4GB DDR3
1TB HDD
ATi 5750 GPU
2560*1440 display
Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
Bluetooth/Wireless N
Webcam

The only terms are thus;

It must be cheaper than the iMac
It must equal or exceed all specifications
It must have equal or greater resolution, in a single monitor
It must run OS X 10.6

Let's see.

First lets pull up an equivalent monitor. Lets even go with a Mac one so you know I am not cutting corners there - $900:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...160&CatId=3774

Now a mobo I know works with OSX (Micro ATX to keep to a smaller form factor)- $115 after shipping:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128405

Quad i5 - $210:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115067

Ram - $85 today (maybe ten bucks more after today):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145198

As far as GPU, Nvidia Hackintoshes better. Here is an equivalent Nvidia card of the bigger iMac - $110:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150479

Good power supply -$70:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371035

DVD Rom I know fits that case well and works with OSX - $25:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151216

Good 1TB Hard Drive - $90:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136284

A good Lian Li case (cases with build quality of Macs) -$70:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811112220

Mac Box set to have same software as iMac - $100:

http://www.amazon.com/Mac-Box-2013-S...ref=pd_cp_sw_1

For a total of $1775 to beat the higher end iMac (with a better monitor).

Of course, some of that more than $200 difference needs to go to a Bluetooth keyboard and Wireless N dongle. Also I think a beast of that size needs 8GB of RAM. For us doing so adds another $85 to the total, at Apple's site it adds $200.

For the lower end one, well I don't really like to compare to it. Quad core its where its at nowadays. But for fun to approximate:

Trade out this CPU $150:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115065

And this GPU -$60:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150475

For a total of $1665 - Which doesn't beat the low end iMac with keyboard and mouse, but again has a better monitor. You COULD beat the price with a cheaper PSU and Case (like a $50 case and CPU combo) but as I said the dual core model isn't practical- non-Quad in 2010 at that price point are a waste.

One last thing: I personally think anyone buying a new computer today without a SSD is wasting their money. For Apple to add a 256GB SSD to these machines its $750. For a hackintosh its $579:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148349

Big savings.

Thanks for the challenge, that was fun....

 

[JSt0rm]

the mac pro has a better build quality then the lian li cases (I own both)

 

[poofyhairguy]

There is an expectation that you are using your retail copy of osx on a apple computer and I'm sure that goes into the numbers you see there. The fact that you hack it onto another computer dilutes the original ip and makes it worth less.

Fine, buy the box set then:

http://www.amazon.com/Mac-Box-2013-S...ref=pd_cp_sw_1

There ya go, full copy of OSX for $100 plus iLife.

 

[ultimatebob]

A bit harsh... is there anything non Mac that is the same size and comparable? I was never able to find anything...

For what Apple is charging for a Mac Mini now, you could get a netbook/mini-notebook with similar system specifications and just leave it docked there.

Hell... some cocky laptop vendor should make an ad like this. I can see it now... Not only is OUR model portable like a Mac Mini, but even comes with a bundled keyboard, trackpad mouse, backup battery, and LCD display! What a value!

 

[TheStu]

Ok. I am going to take up your challenge.



Let's see.

First lets pull up an equivalent monitor. Lets even go with a Mac one so you know I am not cutting corners there - $900:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...160&CatId=3774

Now a mobo I know works with OSX (Micro ATX to keep to a smaller form factor)- $115 after shipping:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128405

Quad i5 - $210:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115067

Ram - $85 today (maybe ten bucks more after today):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145198

As far as GPU, Nvidia Hackintoshes better. Here is an equivalent Nvidia card of the bigger iMac - $110:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150479

Good power supply -$70:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371035

DVD Rom I know fits that case well and works with OSX - $25:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151216

Good 1TB Hard Drive - $90:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136284

A good Lian Li case (cases with build quality of Macs) -$70:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811112220

Mac Box set to have same software as iMac - $100:

http://www.amazon.com/Mac-Box-2013-S...ref=pd_cp_sw_1

For a total of $1775 to beat the higher end iMac (with a better monitor).

Of course, some of that more than $200 difference needs to go to a Bluetooth keyboard and Wireless N dongle. Also I think a beast of that size needs 8GB of RAM. For us doing so adds another $85 to the total, at Apple's site it adds $200.

For the lower end one, well I don't really like to compare to it. Quad core its where its at nowadays. But for fun to approximate:

Trade out this CPU $150:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115065

And this GPU -$60:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150475

For a total of $1665 - Which doesn't beat the low end iMac with keyboard and mouse, but again has a better monitor. You COULD beat the price with a cheaper PSU and Case (like a $50 case and CPU combo) but as I said the dual core model isn't practical- non-Quad in 2010 at that price point are a waste.

One last thing: I personally think anyone buying a new computer today without a SSD is wasting their money. For Apple to add a 256GB SSD to these machines its $750. For a hackintosh its $579:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148349

Big savings.

Thanks for the challenge, that was fun....

I can't get any of your links to work... what monitor is that? The older 30"? Although an Apple, yes, it is an older CCFL and maybe non-IPS (I cannot recall). When I was pricing it myself I was using the Dell 27" which is the same res as the iMac, and $1000. Alternatively, the LG 30" is newer than the Apple one, and gets really great reviews. It is $1150.

I am not disqualifying or trying to nitpick, you seem to have met the challenge well. Everyone knows not to get RAM and HDD upgrades from OEM.

 

[postmortemIA]

monitor from link is Apple A1083 30" Cinema HD LCD Monitor - refurb
detonator sux

still that monitor is something you keep 5-10 yrs, and I wouldn't want it tied with computer.

 

[JSt0rm]

Fine, buy the box set then:

http://www.amazon.com/Mac-Box-2013-S...ref=pd_cp_sw_1

There ya go, full copy of OSX for $100 plus iLife.

I dont think you understand my point.

 

[madeuce]

Big savings.

Thanks for the challenge, that was fun....

How much is your time worth? My time is valuable. For most people it's not fun to assemble a computer. It's not fun trying to troubleshoot exactly why your hackintosh isn't working correctly. It's not fun worrying about which OS X update is going to jack up your hackintosh. Even if the iMac was as upgradeable as a PC you built, most people never upgrade their PCs.

How much is a warranty worth? I've used Apples twice in 10 years and it's been top notch both times.

Your case isn't the best looking case out there, and it isn't all in one form factor.

Resale value. My wife ebays our computers after a few years and gets some pretty decent coin for them. Not going to be able to do that with a hackintosh.

does that mean that specs suddenly don't matter just because most people are ignorant of them, or that if you are gonna debate computers in a technical forum such ignorance is welcome?

I look into the specs of any system I buy very carefully. It isn't me being ignorant of specs, it's the typical computer nerd (Not trying to be condescending with the nerd talk, just don't know of another way to put it lol) being ignorant of anything other than specs. Examples included above.

The whole "point" of an iMac is to take advantage of computer ignorance among consumers- their ONLY advantage over other desktops on the market is aesthetics (and OSX, which is not as exclusive as people make it to be).

The whole "point" of a mac is to just work, right out of the box with no hassles. Again, it's not about ignorance. The moment you order the first piece of your hackintosh you throw that right out the window.

There is some ignorance floating around, but it's on both sides. You celebrate and preach computer ignorance every time you post proclaiming how macs are such a waste of money.

And I could build a $800 hackintosh that came within 30% of the performance of your Mac Pro. I could build a $2000 Hackintosh that would leave your $3000 Mac Pro in dust. In fact, the insane non-value of the Mac desktop lines is why the hackintoshing community exists.

I don't have a mac pro, I was bored and built a PC for $800 ish dollars with win 7 on it. It just pissed my wife off was all. It may match the gaming performance of a $2,400 Mac Pro, but it's going to take a lot more of my time and will be lacking in several other places.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I dont think you understand my point.

I get your point, as I have had this debate more than once.

YOUR point is that I am NOT buying OSX for that price. For that price I am only paying for part of OSX- the other part you pay when you buy a high margin Mac.

YOUR point is that I am screwing over Apple a little by paying such a small amount, and that if they intended OSX to be on non-Macs they might sell it for much more.

My point is that NONE of that is on the packaging (it doesn't say "Only For Macs" on the box), and that I LEGALLY pay for the OS as far as any courtroom would care.

My point is that if they sell it like that in the open, I am gonna hack it onto boxes to avoid their margin. In trade, I ask no support from them....

 

[TheStu]

I get your point, as I have had this debate more than once.

YOUR point is that I am NOT buying OSX for that price. For that price I am only paying for part of OSX- the other part you pay when you buy a high margin Mac.

YOUR point is that I am screwing over Apple a little by paying such a small amount, and that if they intended OSX to be on non-Macs they might sell it for much more.

My point is that NONE of that is on the packaging (it doesn't say "Only For Macs" on the box), and that I LEGALLY pay for the OS as far as any courtroom would care.

My point is that if they sell it like that in the open, I am gonna hack it onto boxes to avoid their margin. In trade, I ask no support from them....

Actually, the EULA states that it must be installed on an Apple Labelled Computer. Although vague, it does sort of say 'Only for Macs'.

For the record, I have a Hack. I wanted to upgrade my desktop anyway, so I figured, why not get a Hack compatible mobo?

I also would like to re-iterate one of my earlier points...

Why do YOU care if someone else gets a Mac?

 

[JSt0rm]

well you can justify it however you want. To be honest I dont care if you torrent osx and install it on whatever you want. You are deluting the original ip. How much would a new cpu cost if you could download the performance? Instead of going out and buying it people would download it and save money. Thats fine, but to then point at the cpu and say its over priced because you can download the performance is crazy.

 

[JSt0rm]

let me also add that its not worth it to you to pay apple margins because you can hack their product. That doesnt mean that apple is too expensive. That means you hacked their product.

 

[madeuce]

let me also add that its not worth it to you to pay apple margins because you can hack their product. That doesnt mean that apple is too expensive. That means you hacked their product.

Don't think about it that way much, but that's spot on.

 

[poofyhairguy]

There is some ignorance floating around, but it's on both sides. You celebrate and preach computer ignorance every time you post proclaiming how macs are such a waste of money.

Look, I am not gonna sit here and tell people how to spend their money if they have the desire for a Mac Mini. Many many Macs have been bought because of my recommendation (even Minis and iMacs). Its a cool small computer, and offers some things the box I linked to earlier doesn't have (like a better GPU). If you have needs it meets 100 percent;, then nothing else will do.

I have seen TONS of overpriced Dells and HPs (where basically the people didn't know better and bought junk), so its not even something I solely put on Apple's shoulders. Many Macs ARE good deals on the day of release in hardware value, but now that is mostly on the mobile lines or on the higher end machines (like who else makes 12 core in that manor?).

I know for most people the only way to get OSX is to buy Macs. I don't think they are a waste of money for those that don't want to hack, want a warranty, etc.

At the same time ever since the switch to Intel you have been able to compare Apples to Apples on hardware for pricing, and it proves an Apple tax exists. Their bottoms lines prove the Apple tax exists as well. Hackintosh evens out some of those gaps on the desktop, but only for nerds. I admit that.

The Mini once was a shining example of Mac value- for a long time no other desktop that small existed- and it completely dominated its own category. I have bought one for that reason.

But Minis no longer provide the best hardware value in that space, and therefore they only compete in the category with other Macs.

But for someone with the money and the desire, have at it. It makes computers (even Macs) cheaper for all of us......

 

[poofyhairguy]

let me also add that its not worth it to you to pay apple margins because you can hack their product. That doesnt mean that apple is too expensive. That means you hacked their product.

I don't hack OSX. The disk I buy installs right on the machine. My mobo has a third party bios that is extra compatible with vanilla OSX so that way I don't have to hack OSX.

But I get what you are saying. Just because I can do it doesn't mean I am right to do so.

I have hackintoshed for so long I have read the eula. And the only restrictions it has is that the machine be a "An Apple Labeled Computer." Then in the box with OSX is two Apple stickers, or "labels." I stuck them on my hackintoshes and have left it alone.

I have talked to an Apple rep about my hackintoshing before, on a call about a real Mac's dead hard drive. He told me that I can buy it and do whatever with the disc but Apple doesn't support it, and that it that. Well that is fine with me.

 

[akugami]

You know, my problem with many people when discussing Apple is the vehemence of their unfounded hatred for all things Apple. Seriously, did Steve Jobs screw your wife and then kicked your dog on his way out? If you don't like their products, then don't buy it. You've got a ton of people who are otherwise intelligent that crap the hell out of Apple.

Most of the time the arguments against Apple can be boiled down to one of two comment types. 1) Apple is expensive. 2) Apple sucks. In the first case I can at least see where you're coming from. Thought it can be argued that you do get a little extra value in the fact that Macs keep their value relatively well and that, for the most part, Mac hardware is usually well designed. In the second case, which I see a lot of even in this thread, all the Apple haters can do is trash Apple with no explanation of why Apple sucks. Apple sucks just because. Hell, I see comments with zero thought value and only full of hate on Dailytech.com and see it get uprated. I can only conclude that the Apple of today is yesterday's Microsoft. The company every nerd loves to hate.

Guys, it's a multi-national corporation. They, as a business, are here to make money. As a publicly traded company they are required by law to do everything they can to make money for their stockholders.

Apple has always been about premium priced hardware. They chose not to go after the lower tier of computers or whatever other market they enter. Do I think they can release a $400 laptop? Sure, but then the Apple haters will be crying about poor quality hardware. I've bought those $400 laptops before, thought not for myself. The flex and general feeling of flimsiness on those laptops make me cringe about the long term reliability of the hardware which is one area where you don't have to worry about much from Apple hardware.

The other issue with tech specs is that you guys on here are nerds. Hell, I'm on here so I'm included. Nerds who nitpick specs are not Apple's target. Soccer moms and people who are generally computer illiterate are. Those people just want a computer that you can buy, plug in and connect to the internet with no fuss or muss.

 

[Larries]

Regarding Mac Mini vs AsRock comparison...

1. The size of the AsRock system is not nearly same as as the mac mini. It is nearly twice as big. Also, from the pictures, the Asrock system comes with an adapter, while the mac mini doesn't. So, the mini is actually much smaller than the Asrock system is.

2. The fact that we are comparing and arguing whether the mac mini is expensive against an Asrock system shows that the mac mini isn't actually expensive compared to other Tier 1 vendors. Despite how many motherboard offering Asrock has, it is still a company targetted to low price segment. If you compare Asrock vs mac mini, you might as well tell everybody else who buys Asus, Gigabyte, EVGA, etc motherboard that they are buying motherboards that are too expensive (unless they are buying those 5 PCI16 slot boards!).

Regarding the poofyhairguys' system, actually, most of us know we can build a computer system that is cheaper than a iMac. But it is not an all-on-one. The iMac is an all-in-one computer. Thats the main point about it. There is a price premium to being all-in-one.

If fact, iMac is one of the few all-on-ones I can find that puts decent graphics card and monitor together.

 

[jihe]

Actually, the EULA states that it must be installed on an Apple Labelled Computer. Although vague, it does sort of say 'Only for Macs'.

For the record, I have a Hack. I wanted to upgrade my desktop anyway, so I figured, why not get a Hack compatible mobo?

I also would like to re-iterate one of my earlier points...

Why do YOU care if someone else gets a Mac?

Don't think he cares, he just laughs at their stupidity.