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I've convinced Ives designed the case not for the dual G5 2.0 GHz, but in fact for the dual G5 2.5 GHz. IBM has already stated that this chip will do 1.8 - 2.5 GHz. (This was not mentioned in the G5 Mac hooplah, just in a relatively low key press release for IBM's PPC 970 blade servers.)
The 1.8 is around 42 Watts. Thus I would not be surprised if the 2.5 puts out 65 Watts. This case seems quite ready to handle that kinda of heat, even in dual configs. It'll be quite impressive to have a monster such as a dual 2.5 dissipating 130 Watts... in a Quiet PC (err... Quiet Power Mac).
I don't think I've EVER seen a PC case that could possibly accomplish this feat with this much heat coming off the CPUs. Typically they sound like wind tunnels, and for good reason.
The 1.8 is around 42 Watts. Thus I would not be surprised if the 2.5 puts out 65 Watts. This case seems quite ready to handle that kinda of heat, even in dual configs. It'll be quite impressive to have a monster such as a dual 2.5 dissipating 130 Watts... in a Quiet PC (err... Quiet Power Mac).
I don't think I've EVER seen a PC case that could possibly accomplish this feat with this much heat coming off the CPUs. Typically they sound like wind tunnels, and for good reason.
My mistake.
Early G4 (7400/7410) had 10.5m transistors.
You're correct, the current G4, aka MPC7455 or Apollo, does indeed have approx. 33 million transistors with the addition of L2 over the 7400 series.
For trivia's sake the current G3, IBM's 750FX, sports 29m. The majority of that is 512k L2 cache.
Tabb the PPC 970 power and thermal information is in this PDf. 1.8GHz, 42W TPD, 1.3v. 1.2GHz 19W TPD 1.1v. Those figues may be a bit off since they were part of a pre-release announcement last year. IBM's also has SPEC figures in that document. 937int & 1051fp @ 1.8GHz.
Eug the transistor count is in the G5 paper on Apple's site.
Early G4 (7400/7410) had 10.5m transistors.
You're correct, the current G4, aka MPC7455 or Apollo, does indeed have approx. 33 million transistors with the addition of L2 over the 7400 series.
For trivia's sake the current G3, IBM's 750FX, sports 29m. The majority of that is 512k L2 cache.
Tabb the PPC 970 power and thermal information is in this PDf. 1.8GHz, 42W TPD, 1.3v. 1.2GHz 19W TPD 1.1v. Those figues may be a bit off since they were part of a pre-release announcement last year. IBM's also has SPEC figures in that document. 937int & 1051fp @ 1.8GHz.
Eug the transistor count is in the G5 paper on Apple's site.
Don't see any spec. on the power-supply; 300W? 400W? 550? 1000?
How about the aluminium plate thickness? 1mm? 1.2mm? folded edges? Good Lian-Li copycat or just another Codegen :disgust:
How good are the "smartie" fans? 12V? Magnetic Tip? CFM number? dB? Overall dB for all fans?
I guess I have a (very) high expectation for Apple desktops. The previous G4 was (IMO) too overpriced for crappy components (PC133 SDRAM? 1GHz Max? MWAHAHA)
It's funny that Apple machines seem to lag behind PC technology, one step behind all the time.
But their OS seem to be ahead of MS Windows (one step ahead? GUI, etc?)
I guess now G5 is trying to be "super computer kick ass macho" with all 7 fans, aluminium, etc.
It's funny because now PC is moving to the next thing, QUIET/SILENT (shoe-box) PCs
Again IMO, their time-to-market is a bit off for the hardware, but right-on for the OS (now if only they realize this... )
Okay I've bitched too much, I'll shut my mouth now. Good night.
How about the aluminium plate thickness? 1mm? 1.2mm? folded edges? Good Lian-Li copycat or just another Codegen :disgust:
How good are the "smartie" fans? 12V? Magnetic Tip? CFM number? dB? Overall dB for all fans?
I guess I have a (very) high expectation for Apple desktops. The previous G4 was (IMO) too overpriced for crappy components (PC133 SDRAM? 1GHz Max? MWAHAHA)
It's funny that Apple machines seem to lag behind PC technology, one step behind all the time.
But their OS seem to be ahead of MS Windows (one step ahead? GUI, etc?)
I guess now G5 is trying to be "super computer kick ass macho" with all 7 fans, aluminium, etc.
It's funny because now PC is moving to the next thing, QUIET/SILENT (shoe-box) PCs
Again IMO, their time-to-market is a bit off for the hardware, but right-on for the OS (now if only they realize this... )
Okay I've bitched too much, I'll shut my mouth now. Good night.
If you read the articles, the G5 is actually QUIETER than the G4 despite all the additional fans. And the G4 is no slouch in the quiet department either.
Probably one of the main reasons that the G5 is quiet is because (judging from the pictures), the two exhaust fans at the rear function as a case and CPU heatsink fan at the same time (in addition to the two fans inside the case blowing across the heatsinks). This "push-pull' effect means you can use quieter fans and still cool the CPU(s) effectively. The fans used by Apple also seem seem bigger than ordinary fans and have a unique, three(?) blade design.
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9 fans, in four separate compartments, but at a claimed 35 dBA (dunno at what distance).
Reports are that the dual G5 is definitely quieter than the old dual G4 Power Macs, despite the fact the CPUs use more than twice the power. Dunno if it's quality as a true Quiet PC, but I will make that judgement when I see one.
Thats how they did in the g4's They use a case fan for the cooling of the proccessors. And they always use those absolutly massive heatsink. Guess one of the advantages of having a stadardized architecture.
And I know from other things that a 3-blade is much easier to balance then having more fins... but usually it doesn't matter on something so small.
I know that when I built my funky suitcase computer that I used a single 80mm fan that rests on top of the case. The case itself is plywood
and is small enough that the top of the cpu heat sink is (biggest aluminum, with copper inset I could get for cheap.. a thermal(something)) even with the bottom of the opening the fan sits on. The fan has a thermal sensor that adjust speed for it, but it never uses it.. It just sits there at a lazy 1600 rpms and is actually quiter then my desktop even though the fan is right in your face. Since it draws in cool air directly onto the heatsink and from their it goes to the rest of the case it's enough to keep my 1700+ (runs 1.5x volts) at 45C.The only problem with the fan design that apple uses is that if they didn't design it exactly right and made sure that their are no stagnant air pockets, dust is going to be a problem.
bigpow: How about the aluminium plate thickness? 1mm? 1.2mm? folded edges? Good Lian-Li copycat or just another Codegen :disgust:
Way beyond folded edges
Apple has Jonathan Ive, who is one of the premier industrial designers in the world. If you appreciate aesthetics and usability then industrial design could be the place for you. It's a mix of creative thinking coupled with common sense and an appreciation for the business aspects of the product. When you pick up a cell phone and the volume button is where you expect to find it - that's good industrial design. Same as plopping into a car and not hunting for controls.
Read: Design According to Ive (wired.com). It's an interview with him specifically about the G5.
Ive has won deisgner of the year and been name as part of the "Cybe Elite" by Time among with many other awards.
Way beyond folded edges
Apple has Jonathan Ive, who is one of the premier industrial designers in the world. If you appreciate aesthetics and usability then industrial design could be the place for you. It's a mix of creative thinking coupled with common sense and an appreciation for the business aspects of the product. When you pick up a cell phone and the volume button is where you expect to find it - that's good industrial design. Same as plopping into a car and not hunting for controls.
Read: Design According to Ive (wired.com). It's an interview with him specifically about the G5.
Ive has won deisgner of the year and been name as part of the "Cybe Elite" by Time among with many other awards.
This is the first Apple case design that I haven't found quite ugly since before the original iMac. It actually looks kinda cool.
Those heatsinks look like extreme overkill, maybe it allows them to run with the fan only pushing 1 CFM across... They look pretty heavy though, in a tower configuration they are probably exterting a lot of torque on the socket...
Those heatsinks look like extreme overkill, maybe it allows them to run with the fan only pushing 1 CFM across... They look pretty heavy though, in a tower configuration they are probably exterting a lot of torque on the socket...
Damn... in some of those pictures linked above, they show the G5 case next to a G4 case. The G5 is several inches taller.
Reminds me of a Lian-Li full tower case! But with only one optical drive bay
Reminds me of a Lian-Li full tower case! But with only one optical drive bay
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This Swedish forum post has a good description of the innards (translation stolen from a Mac site):
Today 99mac got the chance to look more closely at the G5 and to take some photos to allow our readers to build up their understanding of the new model.
Apple Sweden and MacSupport (I'm guessing at this bit - I've no idea what "trixade" means - any Swedes here?) did their thing and wangled us a machine to test. The machine we test drove was the top model with twin 2GHz G5s and 2GB of RAM.
The G5 is significantly bigger than previous models, being a full 20 inches (50cm) high which happens to make it an inch too big for a standard 19" rack. Perhaps it's so that users will want to stick to Xserves screwed in place in a server environment - earlier it was possible to buy small rack adapters to screw the G4s in a rack.
The G5 gives a more competent and industrial impression than the soft, plasticky G4. The chassis is of one piece of aluminium and has a combination of soft flowing lines and sharp edges. The quality of the details is fascinating and I'd go so far as to say that no other computer has been so well built or designed to this level of detail. This is the computer world's Global or Porsche.
When opening the chassis we're met by a large windshield of plexiglass or transparent plastic. The shield is there to direct streams of cold air through the computer. A total of nine fans apparently sit within the computer but we found only eight during our time with the machine. Without the shield the computer won't start, perhaps because it might burn up without the right amount of cold air. It does however work perfectly without the side panel - a way to impress other computer users (shades here of the Ferrari 360 Modena which has the motor cover made of glass).
On the inside it's the two G5 processors and their enormous heatsinks which dominate. There's no doubt as to where the processors sit. A really large motherboard is quite sparsely populated and covers the computer's bottom. In one AGP slot sits an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro and there are three free PCI slots. A total of 8 memory slots for DDR PC3200 RAM sit together and must be filled in pairs - the computer uses memory interleaving which requires two identical DIMMs in the two memory banks.
The heatsinks on the G5 are enormous and our initial feeling is that it'll be a while before a viable solution for the Xserve and the Powerbook is found. If 9 fans and heatsinks the size of milk cartons are necessary in the Power Mac G5 then one wonders how it'd work to fit this into a 2.5" (my note: I don't understand this bit - when was the last time a Powerbook was 2.5" thick?) thick Powerbook.
There's space for one optical drive and Apple is shipping a 4x Superdrive with all PM G5s. A nice touch is the aluminium cover which smoothly vanishes downwards when the tray opens. Perfect for clipping your nails? We tried and the pressure of my fingers stopped the cover.
The G5 is being shipped with a Serial-ATA hard disk, a new standard which gives up to 150MB/s, a bit more than the earlier ATA/133. The biggest difference is that Serial-ATA uses a significantly smaller and more effective connection cable which doesn't impede the vitally important airflow in the computer. There's only one free space for an extra hard drive in the G5. The hard disk is held in place by special hard disk screws which cradle the drive. Apple excels here by storing the extra screws needed for installing another drive inside the computer beside the free space - no risk of losing a little plastic bag of screws!
On the computer's front are an easily-accessible Firewire 400 and a USB2 port. During our testing the keyboard was connected to the USB2 on the computer's front.
On the rear of the computer there are plugs for (from top to bottom) Airport, Bluetooh, optical in and out for sound, normal headphone jack, microphone, 2 x USB2, Firewire 400, Firewire 800, 10/100/1000Mbit Ethernet and modem. The graphics card has double outputs with one DVI and one ADC output.
Since the chassis is made of aluminium both the Airport and Bluetooth are mounted externally, otherwise the reception would have been significantly reduced (as was the case with the first generation titanium Powerbook G4s). This was done with two small plastic rods which are mounted simply on the back. One large Airport bar and a small bluetooth aerial look funny once mounted. Wonder if they're going to be big sellers on the part lists?
The sound level is surprisingly low. Upon starting the machine the whole fan system was on for a few seconds but then everything went completely quiet. I actually asked Lars-Åke Björk at Apple if the machine was even on! To my ears the computer is completely quiet, but of course you can hear a low whine if you put your ear next to the computer. Colour me impressed! Someone has taken notice of the criticism the racket the G4s made received.
Is the computer fast, then? Apple showed the same tests as Steve Jobs did at the keynote and it really does fly both in Final Cut 4 and Photoshop. For now the work is pushing ahead optimising OS X and a bunch of applications for the G4 and 64-bit operations. The machine we tested had 10.2.7 installed and Apple says that when 10.3 Panther is launched the performance will increase further through further optimisations.
Because our machine was a pre-release machine and the optimisations of both hardware and software are still in progress we can't publish the test results and comparisons with the G4 machine yet. In short, though, the computer feels really snappy (I'm translating "kvick" as "snappy" because I'm not sure of a perfect translation for it - besides, it's what we all want to read - again, any Swedes want to help here?) in OS X and in the few apps we got to test with it.
Within a few weeks we'll have one of the first production examples at 99mac and then we'll be able to release some speed tests using some popular apps.
A big thanks to MacSupport and Apple Sweden for their support.
Have a look at 60 G5 photos in our gallery.
Today 99mac got the chance to look more closely at the G5 and to take some photos to allow our readers to build up their understanding of the new model.
Apple Sweden and MacSupport (I'm guessing at this bit - I've no idea what "trixade" means - any Swedes here?) did their thing and wangled us a machine to test. The machine we test drove was the top model with twin 2GHz G5s and 2GB of RAM.
The G5 is significantly bigger than previous models, being a full 20 inches (50cm) high which happens to make it an inch too big for a standard 19" rack. Perhaps it's so that users will want to stick to Xserves screwed in place in a server environment - earlier it was possible to buy small rack adapters to screw the G4s in a rack.
The G5 gives a more competent and industrial impression than the soft, plasticky G4. The chassis is of one piece of aluminium and has a combination of soft flowing lines and sharp edges. The quality of the details is fascinating and I'd go so far as to say that no other computer has been so well built or designed to this level of detail. This is the computer world's Global or Porsche.
When opening the chassis we're met by a large windshield of plexiglass or transparent plastic. The shield is there to direct streams of cold air through the computer. A total of nine fans apparently sit within the computer but we found only eight during our time with the machine. Without the shield the computer won't start, perhaps because it might burn up without the right amount of cold air. It does however work perfectly without the side panel - a way to impress other computer users (shades here of the Ferrari 360 Modena which has the motor cover made of glass).
On the inside it's the two G5 processors and their enormous heatsinks which dominate. There's no doubt as to where the processors sit. A really large motherboard is quite sparsely populated and covers the computer's bottom. In one AGP slot sits an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro and there are three free PCI slots. A total of 8 memory slots for DDR PC3200 RAM sit together and must be filled in pairs - the computer uses memory interleaving which requires two identical DIMMs in the two memory banks.
The heatsinks on the G5 are enormous and our initial feeling is that it'll be a while before a viable solution for the Xserve and the Powerbook is found. If 9 fans and heatsinks the size of milk cartons are necessary in the Power Mac G5 then one wonders how it'd work to fit this into a 2.5" (my note: I don't understand this bit - when was the last time a Powerbook was 2.5" thick?) thick Powerbook.
There's space for one optical drive and Apple is shipping a 4x Superdrive with all PM G5s. A nice touch is the aluminium cover which smoothly vanishes downwards when the tray opens. Perfect for clipping your nails? We tried and the pressure of my fingers stopped the cover.
The G5 is being shipped with a Serial-ATA hard disk, a new standard which gives up to 150MB/s, a bit more than the earlier ATA/133. The biggest difference is that Serial-ATA uses a significantly smaller and more effective connection cable which doesn't impede the vitally important airflow in the computer. There's only one free space for an extra hard drive in the G5. The hard disk is held in place by special hard disk screws which cradle the drive. Apple excels here by storing the extra screws needed for installing another drive inside the computer beside the free space - no risk of losing a little plastic bag of screws!
On the computer's front are an easily-accessible Firewire 400 and a USB2 port. During our testing the keyboard was connected to the USB2 on the computer's front.
On the rear of the computer there are plugs for (from top to bottom) Airport, Bluetooh, optical in and out for sound, normal headphone jack, microphone, 2 x USB2, Firewire 400, Firewire 800, 10/100/1000Mbit Ethernet and modem. The graphics card has double outputs with one DVI and one ADC output.
Since the chassis is made of aluminium both the Airport and Bluetooth are mounted externally, otherwise the reception would have been significantly reduced (as was the case with the first generation titanium Powerbook G4s). This was done with two small plastic rods which are mounted simply on the back. One large Airport bar and a small bluetooth aerial look funny once mounted. Wonder if they're going to be big sellers on the part lists?
The sound level is surprisingly low. Upon starting the machine the whole fan system was on for a few seconds but then everything went completely quiet. I actually asked Lars-Åke Björk at Apple if the machine was even on! To my ears the computer is completely quiet, but of course you can hear a low whine if you put your ear next to the computer. Colour me impressed! Someone has taken notice of the criticism the racket the G4s made received.
Is the computer fast, then? Apple showed the same tests as Steve Jobs did at the keynote and it really does fly both in Final Cut 4 and Photoshop. For now the work is pushing ahead optimising OS X and a bunch of applications for the G4 and 64-bit operations. The machine we tested had 10.2.7 installed and Apple says that when 10.3 Panther is launched the performance will increase further through further optimisations.
Because our machine was a pre-release machine and the optimisations of both hardware and software are still in progress we can't publish the test results and comparisons with the G4 machine yet. In short, though, the computer feels really snappy (I'm translating "kvick" as "snappy" because I'm not sure of a perfect translation for it - besides, it's what we all want to read - again, any Swedes want to help here?) in OS X and in the few apps we got to test with it.
Within a few weeks we'll have one of the first production examples at 99mac and then we'll be able to release some speed tests using some popular apps.
A big thanks to MacSupport and Apple Sweden for their support.
Have a look at 60 G5 photos in our gallery.
Ha...Thought so. Thanx for posting the pics links. I think I saved every one of those dang pics.Originally posted by: Eug
Eug and Eug Wanker are one and the same.
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i remember when pcs had 8 memory slots and memory had to be installed in pairs. the pairs thing sucks but i wish i had something that would run stable with 8 sticks of pc3200 in it. nothing on the pc side does.
as for the fans sucking air through the heat sink and exhausting it straight out of the case, almost every OEM computer i've seen since about 1998 has done so. much better thermal design than the fan on heat sink design most homebuilders use. 2 reasons. 1, that the air heated by the cpu is sucked straight out of the case rather than blown around inside. 2, the air moving through the heat sink has no dead spot (due to the fan motor/hub, even TMD fans have a dead spot) and is also moving in 1 direction instead of swirling around fins/pins in the radiator.
as for the fans sucking air through the heat sink and exhausting it straight out of the case, almost every OEM computer i've seen since about 1998 has done so. much better thermal design than the fan on heat sink design most homebuilders use. 2 reasons. 1, that the air heated by the cpu is sucked straight out of the case rather than blown around inside. 2, the air moving through the heat sink has no dead spot (due to the fan motor/hub, even TMD fans have a dead spot) and is also moving in 1 direction instead of swirling around fins/pins in the radiator.
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Yeah, it's a pain, but it's much better than the alternative in Apple-land.
The old G4s SUCKED for bandwidth. They ran DDR at SDR speeds, at 133-167 MHz. Can you imagine how bandwidth starved dual 1.42 GHz G4s would be on a single 167 MHz bus? Ouch! Dual 1 GHz busses with DDR400... now were talkin'.
For the jump from BX133 era-like memory bandwidth directly to dual channel DDR400, I can live with having to install memory in pairs.
Anyways, I wonder how much dust is going to accumulate in these new G5s. They should all come with a can of compressed air.
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19 Watts is still way more than a 0.13 um G4 7457 at 1.3 GHz. ie. No room power-wise to scale up with a 970, but there's a bit of room with the 7457.
I don't know what kind of power management the 970 includes either besides a speed-step like functionality.
I don't see the 970 in an iBook or PowerBook any time soon. I expect the PowerBook to go 1.25 GHz G4 7457 with 512 KB L2 cache, on a 167 MHz bus in a couple of months. (The G4 7457 can do a 200 MHz bus, but the memory isn't widely available for laptops.) The iBook will get a 1.1 GHz G3 with 1 MB L2 cache, on a 100 MHz bus, also in a couple of months.
By the way, I'm not making this up. Motorola has already announced the 7457 1.3 G4, and IBM has already announced 750GX 1.1 G3.
Man, I can't wait for these guys to get released. My next computer is going to be a dual G4, around 1Ghz and I need those prices to DROP! I think the geekiness of my new machine will evolve around running Debian on a G4, serving Samba and Apache.
vash
vash
Wow... with all these good reviews (or wannabe), it sounds like it's gonna be a good machine.
Wonder why the price is not that high?
I guess Apple was not as prestigious as before. Now it's just another common man's PC.
Wonder why the price is not that high?
I guess Apple was not as prestigious as before. Now it's just another common man's PC.
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