Apple Event 2016-10-27 -- New Macs finally

[badb0y]

Bought the base 15" model with upgraded graphics to 460 Pro in space grey. With tax and employee discount it came out to $2128~ .

 

[sxr7171]

Zaap:

There is a world of difference between a handcrafted mechanical watch with complications and this throw away. I'm not a watch fan but I do respect the history and craftsmanship that goes into one.

I'm just going to say Jobs would have never allowed it. He was a man of substance over style. Cook is a man of anything for a buck.

I wasn't one of those on the iPhone 7, i got mine on day 1. I just wanted better battery and a faster phone, I rarely use the headphone jack, and I happened to already have lightning headphones.

Though I have heard everyone and their sister complaining about the iPhone 7's lack of a headphone and by now it seems all of those got one. The Iphone is a mass consumer product and the one that Apple sells the most of. The MacBooks at this point are mostly a niche product except at a Brooklyn coffee shop. This new range will make it even more niche. Apple knows they don't need to do much to keep that base. Just refresh with last year's chip after 3 years and add a gimmick that will maybe prove itself in 2 year's time. It really is a product for people that will be okay with using the same machine for half a decade and hence they can justify the price. But a tech head wants new stuff as technology marches on year after year.

This Mac on it's own would be fine, but with whats around in the world today its pretty lackluster. Not one innovation beyond that bar. I'm waiting to see what they do with it. But it will take a year or two.

Also Mac pricing has people using them for 5 years+. I update my Windows laptops every 2 years on the dot. I get overall more updated use that way. Tech keeps moving pretty fast.

I'm no stranger to Macbooks, I have 3 of them mothballed. I like Mac OS mostly on one fixed machine (iMac) just to keep my photos in order.

Again I'm not saying these will fail. They will sell them slowly to people who don't want to explore better options because they feel safer with MacBooks. Apple is fine with selling these slowly and making high margins from their base of customers. Their model doesn't have people buying a new one every 2 years at all and in that sense it will keep the status quo going.

But as a tech savvy person I must ask you if something that is lighter, stronger, and has an OLED screen isn't a better offering. All for $1000 less. Or must it always be a MacBook regardless of weaker innovation and higher price?

 

[Eug]

Steve Jobs on why Xerox failed.

 

[TheStu]

Zaap:

There is a world of difference between a handcrafted mechanical watch with complications and this throw away. I'm not a watch fan but I do respect the history and craftsmanship that goes into one.

I'm just going to say Jobs would have never allowed it. He was a man of substance over style. Cook is a man of anything for a buck.

From what I have heard, it was actually Jony Ive that pushed for the gold watch. Notice how it's gone now with Series 2? Regardless of who was pushing for it, they lost the fight.

I wasn't one of those on the iPhone 7, i got mine on day 1. I just wanted better battery and a faster phone, I rarely use the headphone jack, and I happened to already have lightning headphones.

Though I have heard everyone and their sister complaining about the iPhone 7's lack of a headphone and by now it seems all of those got one. The Iphone is a mass consumer product and the one that Apple sells the most of.

Have you heard actual human people express this to you with their meat mouths? What I'm saying is that I've had a couple of people talk to me about my 7+, and only one has said anything about the headphone jack, and that wasn't to complain, it was about the dongle that was included with the phone.

The MacBooks at this point are mostly a niche product except at a Brooklyn coffee shop.

Whereas you are always doing business on your business laptop at the business office and at business home? Business. The meme that MacBooks are only for espresso slurping hipsters needs to die.

This new range will make it even more niche. Apple knows they don't need to do much to keep that base. Just refresh with last year's chip after 3 years and add a gimmick that will maybe prove itself in 2 year's time.

Last year's chip IS THE ONLY OPTION. Same reason why everyone else is using Skylake in their higher end laptops. Want Quad Core? Skylake is the answer. There are advantages to Kaby Lake, and it would have been super great if the 13" MacBook Pro could have shipped with them. Other than that little problem of the $1000 more expensive model being stuck with Skylake, of course. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO QUAD CORE KABY LAKE PROCESSORS AVAILABLE. Jeez, it's like you're complaining that the new Tesla you bought uses dumb old Lithium Polymer batteries instead of Micro Cold Fusion reactors.

But as a tech savvy person I must ask you if something that is lighter, stronger, and has an OLED screen isn't a better offering. All for $1000 less. Or must it always be a MacBook regardless of weaker innovation and higher price?

No, it isn't a better option, because it is stuck running either Windows or Linux. And how is it $1000 less expensive (I'm seriously asking, which one are you looking at?) I just configured an X1 to roughly match the MacBook Pro. $2289.60 for OLED, 16GB RAM, SKYLAKE Core i7 6600u (dual core), intel 520 GPU, and a 256GB NVMe SSD. The base 15" MacBook Pro is $2399 (so $109.40 more) has a higher res (not OLED, you get that one) display, faster QUAD core CPU, and a discrete GPU. If you compare it against the 13" MacBook Pro, the situation gets worse for the X1.

IF one can get that X1 for $1000 less than EITHER comparable MacBook Pro (meaning with 8-16GB RAM, and a 256GB NVMe SSD minimum) without jumping through 3 different hoops, then that is truly impressive and a great deal. Still no MacOS though, which does matter.

 

[sxr7171]

Wow dude. Whatever. Just get your MacBook. Yes human beings with meat mouthes were concerned about a lack of a headphone jack. The horror.

Also I think everything that needs to be said about this lackluster late launch has been said. Mac fans get on it. Everyone else will buy based on technology, design, and price.

 

[TheStu]

Wow dude. Whatever. Just get your MacBook. Yes human beings with meat mouthes were concerned about a lack of a headphone jack. The horror.

Also I think everything that needs to be said about this lackluster late launch has been said. Mac fans get on it. Everyone else will buy based on technology, design, and price.

That's funny, you write a long tirade and it's ok. I reply to your long tirade and I get dismissed.

 

[Chaotic42]

I used to think of the MacBook as the hipster coffee shop computer, and that honestly does still seem to be the computer of choice for those folks, but the power of a Unix system with a strong productivity software lineup and an excellent display is hard to resist. This was going to be the year that I bought a Mac (someone gave me a PowerBook G3, but I don't count that ), but then the rumors started hitting and I got scared off.

I'm not an expert on the Mac userbase, but I think they could have delayed six months to pick up Kaby Lake had they known it would be so late. I think the users would have understood. We're getting to the point where a laptop will last you several years, so a little delay for a much better CPU, especially for future video use, would have been worth it.

I honestly do enjoy my Surface Book though.

 

[sxr7171]

I used to think of the MacBook as the hipster coffee shop computer, and that honestly does still seem to be the computer of choice for those folks, but the power of a Unix system with a strong productivity software lineup and an excellent display is hard to resist. This was going to be the year that I bought a Mac (someone gave me a PowerBook G3, but I don't count that ), but then the rumors started hitting and I got scared off.

I'm not an expert on the Mac userbase, but I think they could have delayed six months to pick up Kaby Lake had they known it would be so late. I think the users would have understood. We're getting to the point where a laptop will last you several years, so a little delay for a much better CPU, especially for future video use, would have been worth it.

I honestly do enjoy my Surface Book though.

You seem to have found a technical merit for this system. Unix foundation. How does that translate to actual productivity though?

They have always had a better display but that changed this year with Dell, HP and Lenovo picking up OLED displays.

If you do get a Mac try the Retina MacBook first. The worst case scenario for it if you don't like it is sofa browsing computer. At that price it wouldn't be a huge loss.

 

[sxr7171]

That's funny, you write a long tirade and it's ok. I reply to your long tirade and I get dismissed.

I'm sorry, I felt you got a little too emotional. I'm not really making an emotional argument as much a technical one. Once we cross over to emotional then discussion itself is meaningless and at that point we should just buy whatever it is we want.

 

[Chaotic42]

You seem to have found a technical merit for this system. Unix foundation. How does that translate to actual productivity though?

They have always had a better display but that changed this year with Dell, HP and Lenovo picking up OLED displays.

If you do get a Mac try the Retina MacBook first. The worst case scenario for it if you don't like it is sofa browsing computer. At that price it wouldn't be a huge loss.

I attend industry events where some folks are working on migrating various workflows to "The Cloud". A lot of the tools expect Unix, so it's about 95% OSX. A few of us work with Ubuntu and many folks bring Windows systems to the first event. By the next event they've either gotten a Mac or installed an Ubuntu VM.

It's niche to be sure, but I'll admit I would like to have MS Office and a few other tools while being able to work in a native Unix environment.

I've heard a lot of people say that Macs are better when it comes to color representation, but it's entirely possible to have that in Windows. I've done some graphic design in Windows and had no real issues. You just need a decent graphics card and a good monitor, same as with a Mac.

 

[sxr7171]

I attend industry events where some folks are working on migrating various workflows to "The Cloud". A lot of the tools expect Unix, so it's about 95% OSX. A few of us work with Ubuntu and many folks bring Windows systems to the first event. By the next event they've either gotten a Mac or installed an Ubuntu VM.

It's niche to be sure, but I'll admit I would like to have MS Office and a few other tools while being able to work in a native Unix environment.

I've heard a lot of people say that Macs are better when it comes to color representation, but it's entirely possible to have that in Windows. I've done some graphic design in Windows and had no real issues. You just need a decent graphics card and a good monitor, same as with a Mac.

I see, that's cool. I'd say either a Macbook with parallels or a Windows machine with Ubuntu VM would get the job done. Color representation is usually on point in Macs, and better than the usual Windows machine. However I'm sure you can pick a Windows machine that matches or exceeds Apple color representation at this point.

I also agree that if you're beholden to a manufacturer that updates its machine every few years then it would behoove you to make sure that whatever in it is the latest technology. With a usual Windows manufacturer that does annual updates and the pricing is much lower it doesn't matter so much as you'll probably replace it soon anyway. You generally risk being only 1 or 2 generations from current at any given time. With Macbooks you can be several generations out of date especially if you buy one that's behind at the time you buy it. Better to wait before you invest.

 

[TheStu]

I'm sorry, I felt you got a little too emotional. I'm not really making an emotional argument as much a technical one. Once we cross over to emotional then discussion itself is meaningless and at that point we should just buy whatever it is we want.

You are mistaken. Caps were used to provided emphasis. With that out of the way, do you want to actually address the points I raised regarding the fact that Kaby Lake wasn't an option, and your (potentially) spurious claim about $1000 cheaper but equivalent systems?

 

[lefenzy]

IMO hardware tech specs don't even matter that much. The hardware of the laptop itself (screen, construction, form factor) and the software are what's important. Price isn't even that much of a factor.

 

[TheStu]

IMO hardware tech specs don't even matter that much. The hardware of the laptop itself (screen, construction, form factor) and the software are what's important. Price isn't even that much of a factor.

As this is the first redesign of the MacBook Pro in 4 years, and the first significant spec bump in over a year, I'd argue that the tech specs mattered more this time around than they usually do. Apple also made a lot of decisions with the redesign that sting. USB-C and Thunderbolt ARE the future (until the next future, obviously), there's no arguing that, but it stings that there isn't even a dinky dongle in the box to soften the blow. 256GB base SSD feels a little stingy, even though it's roughly in line with the industry. And the biggie is that these are Pro machines (right there in the name), but they top out at 16GB. There was a reason given, and the reason makes technical sense, but there's still this intangible feeling that they should have not pursued Thinner so that they could have put 32GB in the system. As I saw someone else put it (and I'm paraphrasing), people want Apple to innovate every time, but they don't want them to change anything ever.

 

[Zaap]

This Mac on it's own would be fine, but with whats around in the world today its pretty lackluster. Not one innovation beyond that bar. I'm waiting to see what they do with it. But it will take a year or two.

Also Mac pricing has people using them for 5 years+. I update my Windows laptops every 2 years on the dot. I get overall more updated use that way. Tech keeps moving pretty fast.

I'm no stranger to Macbooks, I have 3 of them mothballed. I like Mac OS mostly on one fixed machine (iMac) just to keep my photos in order.

Again I'm not saying these will fail. They will sell them slowly to people who don't want to explore better options because they feel safer with MacBooks. Apple is fine with selling these slowly and making high margins from their base of customers. Their model doesn't have people buying a new one every 2 years at all and in that sense it will keep the status quo going.

But as a tech savvy person I must ask you if something that is lighter, stronger, and has an OLED screen isn't a better offering. All for $1000 less. Or must it always be a MacBook regardless of weaker innovation and higher price?

I like fast moving tech innovation as much as you do. But as for the MacBook, I simply go by my actual needs. You kind of hit it on the nail, but then sidesteped it:

People tend to keep their Macbooks around for a long time. Several people in this thread have expressed being perfectly fine with years old MacBooks. I could easily be rocking the 2012 I had, and I'm more than fine with the 2015 I have now- and I will be going forward.

I personally NEED Macs for my work- I run Final Cut Studio, Logic and Motion every single day for my work. That I can do professional work on a laptop still amazes me. I could get the job done on a model that's now 4 years old easily... so these brand new MacBooks would absolutely overkill it. (BUT NO, I MUUUUST have even moar!!)

I love tech innovations too, but honestly most people don't need half the stuff they *think* they do. It makes me chuckle seeing people lament things like 32GB of RAM.... (so... you can surf the web or stream videos MOAR faster?) Now granted, some may need that much RAM legitimately doing complex 3D rendering or something, but most don't. Honestly, most wouldn't see much real world difference in CPUs/GPUs either. (Yes, some power users would.)

The fact that PC laptops are cheaper and we can all swap those out without much care year after year, I see as a great thing- has nothing to do with my old standby MacBook. The MacBook, I'll spend $2500 on every 4 or 5 years or so. Far cheaper PC laptops, I'll swap out at much quicker intervals.

It's another case of things really got 'fast enough' years ago, to me.

(Smartphones and such are a different story to me, almost the direct opposite. More innovation there IS sorely needed- people tend to upgrade their phones every other year, and even every year.)

 

[Kazukian]

As I saw someone else put it (and I'm paraphrasing), people want Apple to innovate every time, but they don't want them to change anything ever.

Ain't it the truth?

Last month "Apple needs to update it's laptops"

This month "Too far". "Not enough" "Too expensive" "If Steve Jobs were alive...."

 

[ultimatebob]

Ain't it the truth?

Last month "Apple needs to update it's laptops"

This month "Too far". "Not enough" "Too expensive" "If Steve Jobs were alive...."

I just wanted a reasonably placed Apple laptop for work with a big SSD and an HDMI port to plug in a projector.

Looks like I struck out on all 3 of my requests.

 

[Yakk]

Do we innovate using the philosophy of "Form follows function". Or does function have to follow form in the name of marketing disguised as innovation?

 

[sxr7171]

I like fast moving tech innovation as much as you do. But as for the MacBook, I simply go by my actual needs. You kind of hit it on the nail, but then sidesteped it:

People tend to keep their Macbooks around for a long time. Several people in this thread have expressed being perfectly fine with years old MacBooks. I could easily be rocking the 2012 I had, and I'm more than fine with the 2015 I have now- and I will be going forward.

I personally NEED Macs for my work- I run Final Cut Studio, Logic and Motion every single day for my work. That I can do professional work on a laptop still amazes me. I could get the job done on a model that's now 4 years old easily... so these brand new MacBooks would absolutely overkill it. (BUT NO, I MUUUUST have even moar!!)

I love tech innovations too, but honestly most people don't need half the stuff they *think* they do. It makes me chuckle seeing people lament things like 32GB of RAM.... (so... you can surf the web or stream videos MOAR faster?) Now granted, some may need that much RAM legitimately doing complex 3D rendering or something, but most don't. Honestly, most wouldn't see much real world difference in CPUs/GPUs either. (Yes, some power users would.)

The fact that PC laptops are cheaper and we can all swap those out without much care year after year, I see as a great thing- has nothing to do with my old standby MacBook. The MacBook, I'll spend $2500 on every 4 or 5 years or so. Far cheaper PC laptops, I'll swap out at much quicker intervals.

It's another case of things really got 'fast enough' years ago, to me.

(Smartphones and such are a different story to me, almost the direct opposite. More innovation there IS sorely needed- people tend to upgrade their phones every other year, and even every year.)

You are the user this machine makes sense for. You use specific apps that are only on MacOS. You also use it for work.

I agree 32GB RAM is overkill for most uses. I do wonder if some video editing on Mac could benefit from it.

It is a "Pro" level machine after all.

Things did get pretty fast and for me too and personally Kaby Lake is not needed. I don't plan on streaming those videos. However the price increase is unwarranted. But I suppose they know what they're doing. They'll less but increase margins and keep profit steady. But really after keeping people waiting so long...

Apple generally, after delaying for this long, comes with something nice. Usually a head start on new processors (like the time they had a few months exclusive supply from Intel) or a new display tech. What was announced was an annual update at best. I get this feeling that they know they can deliver less and price for more based on brand perception. That's what has happened.


I can say one thing. If this machine debuted with an OLED display for the price I'd have shut my mouth about it and actually considered one. That's just tops for me personally.

I'm just too much of a technophile to stick with a machine for that long. I've been through a good number of machines both Apple and otherwise. In all honesty my use case is mostly pleasure anyway. So I look for light, strong, nice display stuff like that. Stuff like Carbon fiber, OLED new tech excites me. If they want to release workhorse stuff for people who want the same formula of 2006 that's fine too.

 

[sxr7171]

I just wanted a reasonably placed Apple laptop for work with a big SSD and an HDMI port to plug in a projector.

Looks like I struck out on all 3 of my requests.

Consider a used MacBook Air or even better a Mac Mini.

 

[sxr7171]

IMO hardware tech specs don't even matter that much. The hardware of the laptop itself (screen, construction, form factor) and the software are what's important. Price isn't even that much of a factor.

This laptop construction is from 10 years ago. It was not cutting edge even then. In fact I think this kind of aluminum design is best for Coca Cola cans. You want construction go look at the Carbon fiber machines out there from almost everyone else. Also look at the variety of form factors and the offerings out there. This is nowhere in specs and it's that same old poor design. Also making the trackpad bigger is straight out of the gillette playbook. Hey what if we put 7 blades on it?

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Yeah the build quality issue seems to be missing from the discussion. My 2011 MBP is still just fine, and the 2.2Ghz (3.1Ghz Turbo Boost) quad-core i7 is only half as fast as a 6700k according to most benchmarks (in both single-threaded and multi-threaded benchmarks). 5 years out and I'm still half as fast as the best desktop chip, well I think that's pretty sweet. The keyboard is still 100% responsive, no ports broken, trackpad is still 100%, display is still 100%. The display hinge is still strong and has not problem keeping the display at whatever angle I set it. I even still have the original battery, and it'll still last me a good 3-4 hours on a charge. Yes I have had the mobo replaced 2x due to the dGPU desoldering thing, but that was a one time issue and Apple took care of it for free (and I have permanently disabled the dGPU to keep it from happening again... loss of some functionality/speed, but oh well). My wife's 2009 white MacBook is still in good shape (aside from a crack in the bottom of the LCD from a drop), and my 2006 white MacBook is also still serviceable.

I have NEVER seen a Windows/PC laptop last 5 years of hard, daily use. Maybe a few of the older IBM ThinkPads came close, but that's about it. The higher level "business class" Dell Latitudes and HP EliteBooks are not even close to the same league. And the damage is evident in those after a few years: missing/busted keycaps, issues with the touchpad, USB and/or power ports coming loose, screen won't stay open at a usable angle..... people buy a new PC laptop every 2-3 years because they HAVE to; it's a falling apart piece of junk by that time. Not to mention the registry rot and other OS/software issues that feel bloated and creaky after a couple of years.

And w/r/t technology improving, again, look at my 2011 MBP. A fast desktop chip (6700k) is still only 2x the speed of my CPU. If you want to game, then ok, point conceded; GPU tech is still increasing at a rapid pace. But since the introduction of the i7/i5/i3 lineup, Intel really hasn't pushed the bar very far with regard to CPU's. Yes there are some additional instructions for things like 4k video (which I have no use for), but for everyday usability purposes, CPU performance has plateaued. RAM.... again, I've had 16GB in my MBP since 2011, and it was only like $150 even then. 16GB is still sufficient for "power user" usage even after 5 years. And my MBP has a 2.5" HDD, so updating to an SSD that's effectively as speedy as anything out there today for all but a few niche purposes is easy. A 5 year lifespan on a laptop is perfectly reasonable from a performance/technology perspective.

So if you look at buying a $1000-$1500 Windows laptop every 2-3 years vs. a $2500 MacBook every 5 years, the cost per year comes out the same, and the Macs are actually durable enough to last that 5 years.

That being said, I'd rather toss a 1GB SSD into my MBP and ride it a few more years than buy a new MBP. I expressed my disappointment in this new announcement already. It doesn't feel like they're pushing any envelopes any more. I'd rather have a 15" MBP the same size and weight as my 2011, with a bigger battery, 32GB of RAM capability and an optical drive just for grins. Oh and maybe the true Fn keys *and* the touchbar? Just a thought. If they sold those at $2500-$3000 I think they would have a lot of takers.

And yes, being a native UNIX environment just feels right to server admins and programmer types. For all intents and purposes, the command-line environment is identical to Linux or any other UNIX; and that familiarity is a big deal, since they spend >50% of their time in the command-line environment. The OSX GUI is serviceable and arguably better than Windows (especially in a multi-monitor setup), and likely better than KDE and Gnome or other X based UNIX GUI's (although I haven't used either in several years... but they were well behind Windows at the time that I did use them, and mostly just seemed to be rough Windows copies).

 

[slashbinslashbash]

This laptop construction is from 10 years ago. It was not cutting edge even then. In fact I think this kind of aluminum design is best for Coca Cola cans. You want construction go look at the Carbon fiber machines out there from almost everyone else. Also look at the variety of form factors and the offerings out there. This is nowhere in specs and it's that same old poor design. Also making the trackpad bigger is straight out of the gillette playbook. Hey what if we put 7 blades on it?

You keep harping on the aluminum construction, but I don't get it. Ok, maybe it's heavier than CF. But it doesn't lack any in strength and durability in my experience. It's a laptop.... it doesn't have to have ridiculous tensile strength, or stop a speeding bullet. The feeling of solidity in the unibody MBP's is incredible and something I haven't felt in any other laptops. I haven't tried a carbon fiber model. But show me photos and/or testimonials of a CF model from another manufacturer that's been through 5 years of hard daily use and maybe I'll believe you. We have multiple testimonials from MBP users of 5+ years in just this thread.

 

[sxr7171]

Oh my gosh my x31 Thinkpad from 2003 has been stepped on, tripped on, dropped from waist height and still powers on. That machine was my only machine I used daily for 5 years. It was my school machine. So it took more abuse than anything since.

That construction is a level that Mac users would not comprehend. All you know is Mac stuff. If there is better out there you wouldn't even want to know.

You have no concept of how strong CF and magnesium alloy is. There are videos of people running over these with their cars.

The key problem with MacBooks imho is that keyboard is not liquid resistant. Go watch the videos all over YouTube with Thinkpads taking an 8oz glass of milk, soda water whatever. Or maybe not and stay in your Apple bubble.


Nothing happened to any of my MacBooks either except one MacBook Air did get a little splash of Vodka Soda and it's keyboard died. The machine was around $1200 and disposable. That's the right price and attitude for a MacBook imho.

They were treated very well sitting on a couch all day so I couldn't talk about durability of the case per se. But obviously apart from the Retina MacBook nothing is competitive on weight. My x31 from 2003 was in that range.

It's just not premium in my book with Aluminum. It's just a vestige from when they tried Titanium and that didn't work so this Aluminum is what they stuck with forever.

Go look all over the net "MacBook dent" you'll see a good number of pictures like that.

It's just a weaker cheaper material. I don't understand what part of that is hard to understand. It really belongs on budget devices unless it has a glowing fruit on it. Then someone would say how it's the best and ask to see if Carbon fiber can survive that long. I mean duh.


Open your eyes and see what modern laptop construction looks like. Products from Dell, HP, and Lenovo outshine it. Heck even an $800 Samsung has it beat on both weight and magnesium alloy construction. Their 15" weighs less than the Apple 13". Or just stay in your bubble. I really don't care. This isn't 2005 or whenever this MacBook design was worth talking about.

 

[lefenzy]

This laptop construction is from 10 years ago. It was not cutting edge even then. In fact I think this kind of aluminum design is best for Coca Cola cans. You want construction go look at the Carbon fiber machines out there from almost everyone else. Also look at the variety of form factors and the offerings out there. This is nowhere in specs and it's that same old poor design. Also making the trackpad bigger is straight out of the gillette playbook. Hey what if we put 7 blades on it?

Now who's getting emotional?