Apple Event 2016-10-27 -- New Macs finally

[Spicedaddy]

What's inexcusable is how much the Mac line-up has languished, it's embarrassing:
http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac

The internals of the 15" MBP are extremely dated, and sadly Apple is going to bump it to Skylake about 3 months before Kaby Lake H ships.

At this rate, I wonder if I'll ever buy a new MacBook Pro!

The latest rumor is that we'll lose both MagSafe and USB A ports.

That's true. I've had my hands on a couple of Dell XPS 13 for clients, so I was able to compare with my 2015 MBP13, and the XPS wins in my book. Obviously it doesn't run OSX, but it's light like a MBA while having a much smaller footprint, and has a high-res screen like the MBP. I could buy one today with Kaby Lake chips... And the design of the laptop is from 2 years ago!

 

[Eug]

This article is rather amusing. MacBook Pro 15" 2013, 2014, 2015, "2016" (bought this month but 2015 model year)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3132...fossil-at-this-point-and-heres-the-proof.html

Yeah, it's good to have some consistency, but it's still a good reminder just how much the MBP is in need of an update.

 

[Tweak155]

Why change a good design? Just for the sake of change?

I'm a fan of lighter and faster, but I also want solid quality. I don't think they need to stray too far... having a recognizable look is also good for a company.

 

[Eug]

Why change a good design? Just for the sake of change?

I'm a fan of lighter and faster, but I also want solid quality. I don't think they need to stray too far... having a recognizable look is also good for a company.

I would have expected at least an added USB-C port for example in 2015.

 

[amyklai]

I would have expected at least an added USB-C port for example in 2015.

I have a 12" MacBook with a USB-C. So far, I've only used it to charge the notebook and to connect it to a converter to connect USB 2/3 - devices. Things might look different in a few years, but at least right now, USB-C isn't a big thing yet. And because people keep their desktops / notebooks longer than they used to, I'm pretty sure that USB-C adoption will be S*L*O*W.

So, basically, not much of a loss for a 2015 device.

And for the new Macbooks: going all-USB-C might do little more than guarantee that you'll always carry yet another dongle, just like I do with my 12" MacBook...

 

[TheStu]

Why change a good design? Just for the sake of change?

I'm a fan of lighter and faster, but I also want solid quality. I don't think they need to stray too far... having a recognizable look is also good for a company.

I'd agree with that. The MacBooks Pro are well behind the curve internally, but when they were last updated there wasn't anything (maybe USB-C) that they could have put onto the Pros to make them externally different other than change for change's sake. The author of that piece made the point that the XPS13 had changed very little over time, and if it wasn't for the inclusion of USB-C/TB3, there'd probably be no external indicators at all.

And for the new Macbooks: going all-USB-C might do little more than guarantee that you'll always carry yet another dongle, just like I do with my 12" MacBook...

2nd generation (meaning they don't overheat like the earlier ones) USB-C thumb drives are starting to proliferate. Most of the ones that I have seen have an A on one side, and a C on the other, so they are cross platform. I think the transition will happen a little faster than you might think, but rMB owners will likely still want to carry some sort of dongle/hub since they only have the 1 port. And if you want to connect to a larger display AND get data off a thumb drive AND charge... well you're stuck. As of now, there're only a couple of USB-C power/equipped displays of which I am aware.

 

[manly]

Optimist comment: It should be noted that Intel has made exclusive CPUs for Apple before:

Anand: Intel’s SFF Merom: Just for Apple

And Intel has done this more than once too.

That was 9 years ago, I don't know of any more recent examples. It's safe to say we won't get bespoke CPUs a few months before performance Kaby Lake chips ship.

I don't care that much about external design, but if anything the rumors are not encouraging. It will be thinner and lighter but we lose valuable ports and possibly a good keyboard.

That's true. I've had my hands on a couple of Dell XPS 13 for clients, so I was able to compare with my 2015 MBP13, and the XPS wins in my book. Obviously it doesn't run OSX, but it's light like a MBA while having a much smaller footprint, and has a high-res screen like the MBP. I could buy one today with Kaby Lake chips... And the design of the laptop is from 2 years ago!

The Mac situation is so pathetic that I even thought about getting a Dell Precision 5510 (the pro version of the XPS 15) and running Linux. But unlike the award-winning XPS 13, the larger version has extremely mixed reviews.

 

[Eug]

Are there any good keyboards that mate with the Surface Pro? If I don't like the Mac keyboards, I'd like to know what my non-Mac options are.

Right now I have both an old 13" MacBook Pro and an old 11.6" Windows 10 laptop (as listed in my sig). My Mac laptop is usable but slow, with an old non-Retina screen, and my Windows laptop is annoying to use. It's actually newer, but it's got a mediocre keyboard, poor screen, and much slower CPU, so arguably I actually need to replace the Windows laptop sooner than the Mac laptop.

---

BTW, to give you an idea how old my MacBooks are, I managed to totally wow my 4 year-old daughter with its capabilities today, because she wanted to play a DVD and I said we could play it on the computer. She was very perplexed, because we had only ever done that before on the great big DVD player in the living room, and couldn't figure out how we'd get that big disc into the computer. When I showed her that thin slot in the laptop that automatically sucked in DVDs, she was completely amazed at this futuristic technology.

 

[Chaotic42]

I love my Surface Book, including the keyboard. It's not an amazing keyboard, but it's the best of the "chicklet" or whatever keyboards that I've used. The pen input is wonderful as well.

 

[sxr7171]

Are there any good keyboards that mate with the Surface Pro? If I don't like the Mac keyboards, I'd like to know what my non-Mac options are.

Right now I have both an old 13" MacBook Pro and an old 11.6" Windows 10 laptop (as listed in my sig). My Mac laptop is usable but slow, with an old non-Retina screen, and my Windows laptop is annoying to use. It's actually newer, but it's got a mediocre keyboard, poor screen, and much slower CPU, so arguably I actually need to replace the Windows laptop sooner than the Mac laptop.

---

BTW, to give you an idea how old my MacBooks are, I managed to totally wow my 4 year-old daughter with its capabilities today, because she wanted to play a DVD and I said we could play it on the computer. She was very perplexed, because we had only ever done that before on the great big DVD player in the living room, and couldn't figure out how we'd get that big disc into the computer. When I showed her that thin slot in the laptop that automatically sucked in DVDs, she was completely amazed at this futuristic technology.

I would say Thinkpads are a good place to look. It's unbelievable how many models and versions there are. I also heard great things about the keyboard on the HP Elitebook Folio G1. They seem to be stepping up their hardware like Dell has with the XPS13. HP service though, I don't know about. Lenovo has been pretty good, but I haven't used their service recently. Things like liquid spillage won't put the machine out of commission like what happened to my Macbook Air.

For that reason apart from others like the keyboard and design I won't go back to Apple for laptops. Too many rehashes and the design is poor IMHO. When ever will they move to proper business class materials like carbon fiber, magnesium alloy or lithium magnesium alloy? To me they seem like a statement at the coffee shop/college campus more than serious business/work laptops. I justified the purchase of one given that my use is mostly for leisure now, but even then I think I'd rather have some of those Thinkpad features like fingerprint reader, spill resistant keyboard, that glorious Trackpoint (I will admit Apple has the best trackpads) and now OLED screens on the X1 Yoga.

 

[sxr7171]

For the 13", Apple could do something like Lenovo did with the T460s: use a 15W chip but give it extra headroom by increasing the SDP to 25W. Worked pretty well in that case - and with the added speed from Kaby Lake it will most definitely be better than using a Skylake processor.

That's the Thinkpad team which actually engineers machines. Very different from rehashing the same case for three quarters of a decade maybe even a decade and dragging their feet on just putting the latest CPU in there.

 

[amyklai]

Are there any good keyboards that mate with the Surface Pro? If I don't like the Mac keyboards, I'd like to know what my non-Mac options are.

The Surface Pro 4 Type cover is actually pretty good, but you can always use the Thinkpad Bluetooth Keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-Com...76&sr=8-1&keywords=thinkpad+wireless+keyboard

Works with practically anything including iPhone / iPad / Android / Mac / PC and includes the trackpoint (which I love).

 

[HiroThreading]

After changing to a job where I need to have a computer on me all the time, I'm really looking to offload my 15" MBP. I'll miss the performance and screen real-estate. But oh well, I've built the Hac Pro for all the grunt work at home. Also, because of the MBP, my shoulders are killing me -- especially during commutes.

I'm really hoping Apple updates the 12" MacBook with Thunderbolt 3 -- but I'm not going to hold my breath, as the current Skylake MacBook is only 6 months old. Also, are the Kaby Lake Y-series parts available in volume yet?

At this stage, I think Apple will retire the MacBook Air line entirely. Rather, they should retire the Air as its positioning is very awkward between the MacBook and 13" MBP. If we assume that the Pros will see a drastic remake, then a refreshed 13" MBP may well end up being thinner than the MBA. Unless, Apple goes with a lineup like this:
- MacBook: 12" entry level ultraportable;
- MacBook Air: 13" portable performance -- this will be the refreshed and renamed 13" MacBook Pro. Not sure what the port configuration is going to look like though; and
- MacBook Pro: 15" high end performance. Quad core Skylake, Polaris graphics, 2 TB3 ports, 2 USB-C ports, and maybe HDMI. Intel obviously doesn't have quad core Kaby Lake ready,

I'm not sure if the iMac will see updates besides the usual Polaris upgrades. Maybe HDR and a slight tweak to the chassis?

A 5K Thunderbolt monitor to plug into the MBP/MacBook would be amazing. If Apple really wants to be innovative, they can try integrating the Polaris GPU into the monitor itself (albeit at the cost of maintaining driver).

The Mac Pro, I suspect, will be dropped entirely.

 

[Eug]

^^^ The iMac is already wide gamut. The MBP should be next, given that the iMac already had it and even my iPhone already has it too, and macOS handles it natively now.

 

[Eug]

Ming Chi Kuo is saying that there will be a new 13" MacBook, and doesn't make any mention about MacBook Air updates.

That actually makes more sense to me, which if true probably means five things:

1) The MacBook Air will be discontinued (as I've been predicting for a while now), sooner rather than later.
2) The 13" model will get a Retina screen.
3) The keyboard will probably suck.
4) It may get Kaby Lake, but if so, it may be the Y series.
5) It would also probably mean a MacBook with more than one port.

Perhaps they will use the combo of the keyboard travel and feel along with the OLED Magic Toolbar as differentiators above and beyond the MacBook line, in addition to the usual CPU and GPU improvements.

Now, even though the non-Pro MacBooks could go Kaby Lake, there is no guarantee that Apple would implement the video playback advantages in macOS for these 2016 MacBooks if MacBook Pros ship with Skylake. It's entirely possible that Apple would artificially limit such support to computers shipping in 2017 or later.

 

[JAG87]

My predictions:

MacBook Air 11/13 - discontinued or not refreshed
MacBook 12 - will get a drop in price, possibly refreshed to Kaby 7Y30 (+$ 7Y54)
MacBook 13 - will probably take the price of the 12, probably Kaby 7Y54 (+$ 7Y75)
MacBook Pro 13 - fancy new design, probably Kaby 7200U baseline (+$ 7500U)
MacBook Pro 15 - fancy new design, probably Skylake 6770HQ baseline (+$ 6870HQ +$$ 6890HQ)

I could be wrong but it just doesn't make sense for Apple to go any other route unless there is some supply constraint with Kaby Lake chips. The 7200/7500U chips are basically equivalent in performance to the 5257U Broadwell chips used in the 2015 model, but they use significantly less power. It would give the new MBP 13 stupidly good battery life, even with the smaller battery that the thinner chassis will require. I would also expect a swift mid-2017 refresh of the MBP 15 once the suitable HQ chips are out.

I just hope that Apple doesn't put a 28W Skylake U chip in the new MBP 13. It would have a slightly faster iGPU, but it would 100% not be worth the tradeoff in video decoding features and battery life.

And I wouldn't buy one.

Now, even though the non-Pro MacBooks could go Kaby Lake, there is no guarantee that Apple would implement the video playback advantages in macOS for these 2016 MacBooks if MacBook Pros ship with Skylake. It's entirely possible that Apple would artificially limit such support to computers shipping in 2017 or later.

That's ok, once the switch is flipped, you'll have it. With Skylake, you won't.

 

[jpiniero]

Performance wise it would be very close. I don't see why the battery life would be much better when you are talking about 25 W vs 28 W. Except for the updated codecs of course.

i5 6267U: 2.9 / 3.3 plus whatever you get from edram
i5 7200U: 2.7 / 3.1 (although at 25W it should be able to boost to 3.1 with both cores indefinitely)

i7 6567U: 3.3 / 3.6 plus edram
i7 7500U: 2.9 / 3.5 (although at 25W you have to wonder what it could boost with both cores at)

 

[JAG87]

Well, here is how I see it.

The nominal TDP on the Kabylake U part is 15W and it only runs 2.5G without cTDP up. The performance delta is so small between 2.5 and 2.7 (and even 3.1) that it's really not worth the greater power consumption.

If I was Apple, I would design around the 15W TDP. With that you'd get away with reducing the battery from 75 Wh (what's currently in the MBP 13), down to something like 50 Wh (what's currently in the Air), without incurring any major losses in battery life. How else are you going to slim down the chassis and lighten up this new MBP and still maintain that 9-10 hour battery life... You might also run into thermal constraints in a thinner chassis. Targeting a 15W TDP would let them slim down the battery, make the machine thinner and lighter, and advertise something like 12 hours of battery life.

Of course the machine is becoming less and less worthy of the Pro name (low clocked dual core, iGPU wouldn't even be Iris with the KL U chip), but frankly I wouldn't give a rat's ass. With the MB being a glorified netbook in terms of performance, and the MBA being basically inconsiderable (short of a serious redesign), the new MBP 13 would be the sweet spot for those looking for a decent machine for everyday mundane stuff, but that can also grunt a little bit when you need it to.

It's kind of funny if you think about it, iPads are getting faster and closer to x86 performance, and Macs (PCs too really) have basically been flatlining at the same performance level for the past 3 or 4 years now, instead searching for ways to reduce power consumption. Pretty soon the gap between Apple's A chips and Intel's x86 will be completely gone, and it will actually not make any sense anymore to use a less efficient x86 chip. That gap is already so dangerously close between A chips and core M chips that one has to really think hard about their workflow to justify a MB, when an iPad Pro plus a keyboard kicks so much ass.

Having said that, surprise me Apple. It's usually what you're good at, but I haven't had that feeling in a while now.

 

[Eug]

Three new Macs confirmed.

Three new Macs listed in Russia in Eurasian Economic Commission database: A1706, A1707, A1708

I'm no expert on Apple model numbers, but it's interesting that the numbers start with A17 since there is no A16. The last set of Mac laptops are A15xx:

A1502: MacBook Pro 13" mid 2014
A1502: MacBook Pro 13" early 2015
A1534: MacBook early 2015
A1534: MacBook early 2016

And as you can see from the screengrab, all of the new Macs run macOS Sierra 10.12 of course.

 

[Spicedaddy]

Here's my prediction:

MacBook Air 11/13 - discontinued
MacBook 12 - will get a drop in price
MacBook 13 - Kaby Lake 15W (this will become the bestseller, replacing the 13" Air)
MacBook Pro 13 - new design, Skylake 25W
MacBook Pro 15 - new design, Skylake 45W

 

[secretanchitman]

Here's my prediction:

MacBook Air 11/13 - discontinued
MacBook 12 - will get a drop in price
MacBook 13 - Kaby Lake 15W (this will become the bestseller, replacing the 13" Air)
MacBook Pro 13 - new design, Skylake 25W
MacBook Pro 15 - new design, Skylake 45W

Yeah this is my thinking as well, unless the MacBook 13" is really just the MacBook Air 13".

 

[JAG87]

Here's my prediction:

MacBook Air 11/13 - discontinued
MacBook 12 - will get a drop in price
MacBook 13 - Kaby Lake 15W (this will become the bestseller, replacing the 13" Air)
MacBook Pro 13 - new design, Skylake 25W
MacBook Pro 15 - new design, Skylake 45W

You know what, if that machine has the same design as the MB, I'll take one. I don't give a damn about the new MBP if it's packing Skylake. I want a thin, light, sleek machine that can play all modern codecs effortlessly at 4K.

 

[Midwayman]

It's kind of funny if you think about it, iPads are getting faster and closer to x86 performance, and Macs (PCs too really) have basically been flatlining at the same performance level for the past 3 or 4 years now, instead searching for ways to reduce power consumption. Pretty soon the gap between Apple's A chips and Intel's x86 will be completely gone, and it will actually not make any sense anymore to use a less efficient x86 chip. That gap is already so dangerously close between A chips and core M chips that one has to really think hard about their workflow to justify a MB, when an iPad Pro plus a keyboard kicks so much ass.

Having said that, surprise me Apple. It's usually what you're good at, but I haven't had that feeling in a while now.

Yah you have to think that Apple is looking at unifying OSX with iOS at some point. If anyone can pull off the transition to ARM, Apple has to be the one. MS tried, but they didn't have the mobile clout. The chips are certainly fast enough to run OSX these days. x86 in the consumer space probably has a limited number of years left. Eventually they'll just virtualize it for legacy apps and everything else will move over.

 

[amyklai]

Yah you have to think that Apple is looking at unifying OSX with iOS at some point. If anyone can pull off the transition to ARM, Apple has to be the one. MS tried, but they didn't have the mobile clout. The chips are certainly fast enough to run OSX these days. x86 in the consumer space probably has a limited number of years left. Eventually they'll just virtualize it for legacy apps and everything else will move over.

Virtualization only works well if it's the same instruction set. If your trying to run an x86 VM on an ARM chip, you have to emulate the processor and the ARM chip has to be about an order of magnitude faster to make it work.

Also, the "less efficient" isn't what it once was. Just tool at the the 12" MacBook vs the 12.9 iPad Pro. Both very light, totally quiet, battery life's in the same ball park. x86 Notebooks like the current Dell XPS 13 get almost 14 hrs of battery life while being small, light and fairly powerful. The disparity isn't that big and the cpus are only a part of the total power draw of a machine.

So basically, switching cpu arch now would mean trading minor conveniences in weight reduction and battery life for major inconveniences in software incompatibility. Not a good trade off IMO.

 

[asendra]

I'm no expert on Apple model numbers, but it's interesting that the numbers start with A17 since there is no A16. The last set of Mac laptops are A15xx:

A1502: MacBook Pro 13" mid 2014
A1502: MacBook Pro 13" early 2015
A1534: MacBook early 2015
A1534: MacBook early 2016

And as you can see from the screengrab, all of the new Macs run macOS Sierra 10.12 of course.

I think is likely Apple had a A16xx lineup in the works of at least the rMBPs, but due to some Intel/fucntion row display delays, ended up scrapping it and starting again with the A17xx ones.


What I find interesting is some tidbit of information that was reported in the last Ming-Chi Kuo rumor and I haven't seen anyone comment on (maybe someone did?).
http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/22/kuo-october-2016-mac-predictions/

... (4) adoption of a similar processor as Apple Watch to control the OLED touch bar more energy-efficiently in the new MacBook Pro models;

Will this be the first Apple ARM chip inside a Mac?