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What kind of “home creation” work requires something that is only as powerful as a phone, but must be done on a keyboard and large screen, and the keyboard and screen dock station must cost much less than a real laptop for it to make sense?
blckgrffn
Diamond Member
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That’s just it. iPhone SoCs are already fast enough to do the work needed by 90% of families. I know this because my wife has an iPad 7 with its ancient A10 SoC from 2016, matched to an Apple Smart Keyboard effectively transforming it into a laptop. Performance of A10 isn’t exactly fast, but it’s fast enough for most usage, and A14 will be literally 3X as fast. Furthermore, A10 is roughly as fast as my Core m3-7Y32 MacBook. I don’t plan updating it anytime soon for performance reasons. My main reason to upgrade would be for stuff like dual USB-C ports.
That’s why I’ve been saying for so long now that A14 non-X would be perfect for a fanless 12” MacBook.
Apple actually already has applied for patents for such a dock, which docks the iPhone into a laptop, and turns it into a trackpad. I don’t think we’ll see it, but it would be perfect for many students for example if Apple could make it work slickly and for a decent price.
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Here we go:
appft.uspto.gov
This message was posted from my A10 iPhone 7 Plus.
Patent Public Search | USPTO
appft.uspto.gov
This message was posted from my A10 iPhone 7 Plus.
It would be closer to 2 to 2.4X not 3X with the A10 vs A14. In Single Thread we are talking closer to 2X but with the A11 to A14 Apple moved time 4 small cores instead of 2 small core so multithread looks better in all the subsequent A11, A12, A13, A14 chips when comparing the iPhone 7, and the 6th and 7th gen iPads (aka the most recent iPad for $329 until this very week.)
PS this post written on a 7th Gen iPad with an A10 and 3 GB of Ram. It is definitely not slow!
There's probably a reason why they never made it.
The Magic Keyboard for the iPad is already $300. Add in a screen, better speakers, battery to power the screen (since phone batteries are too small), and you're looking at a $600++ add-on. At this point, you're pretty close to a Macbook Air which does not require docking an iPhone.
This is my point. When you make a good dock for an iPhone, you're pretty darn close to the cost of a laptop.
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A10 scores about 1425 multi-core in Geekbench 5. If the A14 multi-core is 4068 then that is 4068 / 1425 = 2.85X.
I don’t see why the change in core setup matters that much as long as all cores are being used.
BTW, my MacBook Core m3-7Y32 gets around 1550 multi-core. I’ve been telling people a good ballpark baseline for entry level machines in 2020 is around 2000 multi-core, but anything 1200 and above is very usable.
To my understanding Geekbench 5 likes cores despite the fact they are big or small cores.
Remember with the a12 the small cores are about 25 to 33% of the speed of the big cores per anandtech.
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I may be wrong, I hope that I am wrong. I hope the a14 is 2.85x faster in multithread.
Regardless we are going to only get 2x maybe 2.2x in single thread comparing A10 to A14.
(I repeat the A10 is not slow, it is a great chip. I just WISH from the bottom of my heart we have a chip that is 3 times the amazingness factor of the A10. I just expect 2.0 to 2.4X depending on single vs multi, and I can be wrong and it may be 2.85X for multi, and it would be astonishing if its 3.0X for multithreaded workloads.)
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That is appropriate because these later chips like A12 can leverage the small cores to do real work.
I agree A10 is not truly slow, but I definitely think it's lower performance is noticeable for more advanced users even just for basic usage. I knew this in advance but I bought the A10 iPad 7 for my wife anyway, because I got a really good deal on it - my carrier was selling the LTE version for the same price as the WiFi version. I really, really wanted to wait for the A12 iPad, but the timing just didn't work. We are currently paying just CAD$5 (US$3.78) per month for 4 GB data.
Nonetheless, my wife loves it and doesn't complain about the performance ever, even though she has an A12 iPhone XR.
OTOH, I notice the performance difference because I use an iPad Pro 10.5" with A10X daily, and that does feel faster if compared side by side with the iPad 7 with A10, even for basic usage. But it is a matter of diminishing returns. I barely notice any difference at all for basic usage from my 2017 iPad Pro with A10X compared to a 2018 iPad Pro with A12X. I've tested this side-by-side and it's really hard to notice the difference, despite the fact that A12X has twice the multi-core performance.
While I do think that grandmas storing their recipes would be more than overjoyed with A10 performance for a new purchase in 2020, I'm not sure it would be as appropriate for say a university student looking to keep the machine for 4 years as his or her needs grow. Of course it depends on the intended usage, but that's why I was suggesting 2000+ as a baseline, as it provides some breathing room. On the Mac side, the current 2020 MacBook Airs start at around 2200 in GB5 MC, roughly the same as my 2017 iPad Pro.
BTW, the reason I have no interest in upgrading my MacBook to a MacBook Air at this time is because I don't want anything to do with a fan in my laptop. Although my 2017 MacBook 12" has a Core m3-7Y32, it does have 16 GB, so that should keep it relevant for quite some time.
That is one thing we forget about with speed comparisons.
It is not really about how fast you are or how slow you are if you can deliver a "consistent" experience. This is due to perception things and the human brain, and how we use our cerebellum as a consistent experience barometer. We notice when our perception stream is inconsistent, things like stutter, things like "mental" speed-bumps ... going 1.1 to 1.2 to 1.3 to 1.4 to 1.5 in .1 increments is a consistent experience, going 1.1 to 1.2 to 1.35 to 1.39 to 1.5 is the same amount of unit change but the inconsistency in the experience drives our brains nuts.
Apple is both the fastest cpus out there on a per watt basis, but since they control pretty much almost the entire stack on all the levels they can optimize for a consistent user experience. Pretty much the only way for apple to get an even more consistent user experience is a real time Operating System with things like user input but that would take a full scale rewrite.
Android and MS with windows can't deliver this consistent user experience since they do not control the stack to the same extent and thus it is all about throwing more ssd, more cpu and gpu power, more dedicated silicon to the problem...oh wait you can't throw dedicated silicon for no one will code to the silicon and no hardware maker thus will put the dedicated silicon to solve the problem for it increases their cost and thus lower their margins. It is a catch 22 problem and Apple by controlling the entire stack solves for this problem. Even if it opens new problems with how much should developers get paid with things such as the store and in app purchases, and what is the developer to apple relations. But most users do not care about this stuff even though they partly should care and partly should not care.
Then why throw in irrelevant claims about $20 monthly subscriptions if you know full well that they have NOTHING to do with the issue we were discussing, and that they are in no way "compulsory"?
If you know a lot about Apple, behave like it, not like a snarky 12 yr old.
That was never going to become a product. In order for "use your phone as a PC" to be practical it can't require an entire laptop shell because 1) such a thing would cost almost as much as an actual laptop and 2) wouldn't improve portability at all.
What you'd want is to interface your phone with a TV/monitor, keyboard and mouse. You don't need a docking station for that, just a Lightning breakout cable that has an HDMI port, a Lightning port (for charging) and a few USB ports.
Almost everyone owns a TV or monitor, and most have a keyboard/mouse or can get one for near free from friends who have too many. Then you aren't spending a lot of money on a goofy laptop shell with a single function - you wouldn't spend any money, other than what Apple might charge to enable this functionality.
You wouldn't need to bring anything on trips, either. You can find that TV/keyboard/mouse in many other places, like hotels (they have a TV in every room, the business center can provide the keyboard/mouse) or traveling to other companies where they will of course have all that stuff. So if you travel for business or pleasure you would only need to bring your phone, unless "working in the airport/on the plane" or "working in Starbucks" is a necessity.
Apple would just need to offer a "macOS" app that has all the macOS APIs, the full GUI, etc. then you could run anything on your phone that you can run on a Mac.
Whether this all makes sense from a marketing, profitability and health of the Mac ecosystem standpoint is a big open question, however.
They are selling a $300 keyboard for a tablet? Wow. Seriously as long as people keep buying that stuff they will keep creeping up the price.
(a) Apple proces do not "keep creeping upwards", they keep SPREADING -- both a more expensive high end and a less expensive low end.
If you don't like this, may I ask why, since for ten years all I have heard from Apple haters is that they should offer MORE choice.
(b) It's absurd and ignorant to say that "all" you are paying for with the $300 Magic Keyboard is a keyboard. What you are paying for is the MAGIC!
If you just want an iPad keyboard, any Bluetooth keyboard will do. Apple's BT keyboard is $100, you get get other ones for much cheaper.
If you want a keyboard CASE you can get Apple options for around $200, again 3rd party options that are much cheaper.
What you get with the MAGIC keyboard is the ability to VERY EASILY touch the keyboard to the iPad so create a laptop like device, then just as easily tear the keyboard off to revert to a tablet. It truly is magical, in a way that you will not appreciate until you try it.
(c) That same sort of magic (done much less well) ain't free in Windows-land either. Foldable Yoga-type laptops cost more than non-foldable ones...
(d) The whole tenor of the argument is idiotic because, by assumption, the laptop we have in mind is a low-end device, and its keyboard is going to be firmly attached to the screen by a traditional (non-Yoga) hinge...
(e) There is a more general point here. You can go through life mocking everything you ever encounter that is new and previously unencountered. Or you can try to use your brain...
When you encounter a $300 keyboard, you can IMMEDIATELY assume that every person who buys it is an idiot (and you are a stable genius) OR you can ask yourself if perhaps the keyboard is providing some value that's not obvious to you, value beyond a normal keyboard; something you can test by visiting your local Apple store or Best Buy or whatever, or even just by writing a polite request for information on the internet.
Gideon
Golden Member
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I'm also bit torn on my upgrade priorities. Should I choose a decent GPU upgrade or MAGIC?
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I doubt I will ever buy another Bluetooth keyboard for my own iPads. The implementation and ease of use of the Smart Connector based keyboards is completely unmatched. Totally different league. BTW, if you find the Apple ones too expensive, Logitech also sells them for some models. I ended up buying the Apple Smart Keyboard for for my 10.5” iPad Pro and my wife’s iPad 7. I paid an average of under US$100 each for refurbished ones from Amazon.
OTOH, while those wheels are a total ripoff, I also have never understood why anyone besides a pro or semi-pro gamer would pay $699 for a video card*.
Different priorities I guess.
* To be clear, I’m not talking about workstation cards.
OTOH, while those wheels are a total ripoff, I also have never understood why anyone besides a pro or semi-pro gamer would pay $699 for a video card*.
Different priorities I guess.
* To be clear, I’m not talking about workstation cards.
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Gideon
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This has surprised me as well, only a small subset of my friends every wanted to go above the $200-$400 bang/buck in the past. Now most of them are eyeing 3080 0.o (and expensive high-refresh-rate monitors on top).
Inflation is probably a part of that ($500 is sorta the new $350) but still computer-part prices have really creeped up in the last 3-4 years.
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FWIW, OWC sells Mac Pro wheels for $199.
BTW, when the hinge on my fridge door started acting up, I called someone to repair it. It turns out the replacement hinge alone was CAD$400, plus the repair cost was on top of that. I asked him why the hinge cost so much. He said it was a low volume high end boutique fridge, and an older model too. The manufacturer doesn’t keep many spare parts for those around as they don’t sell many, and it’s aimed a very niche high end market, so their price reflects that. (Fridges of that class go for around CAD$10000. I didn’t buy it. It came with the house with a wood door that matched my cabinets.) Sounds a lot like the current Mac Pro.
If I had a lower end mainstream fridge, the hinges would have been about $50-$100. I ended up replacing it later with a CAD$3300 Samsung upper mid-end mainstream fridge from Costco. It is still an expensive fridge, but it’s literally only 1/3 the cost. However, there were some compromises. It no longer matched the cabinets, and it was significantly shorter as the old fridge was 7 feet tall. To fill in the space, I went to Ikea and bought a cabinet to fit the space and put a stainless steel door on it. It’s not an exact match but close enough, and overall the combination suits my needs. When that dies or when I renovate the kitchen, I’ll probably get something similar. I won’t put in a cheap $1500 fridge though. They are not only worse quality, they also are usually somewhat less functional and look like crap.
This is a good analogy for my Mac purchasing habits. Mid-end products at the upper level of overall mid-end computer pricing that reflects my preferences for usability, performance, and aesthetics, but I won’t get the uber high end boutique stuff.
I’d consider paying US$299 for an 11” Pro Magic Keyboard. The keyboard uses the Smart Connector, has a USB-C charging port for the iPad Pro thereby freeing up the USB-C data port, is backlit, is full size with a good keyboard feel, and raises the iPad off the table for improved ergonomics. There is nothing else in existence that matches it AFAIK. However I see that Best Buy sells them significantly cheaper for open box, so I’d chance getting the latter. These prices are high, but they aren’t US$699 wheels type of high.
BTW, when the hinge on my fridge door started acting up, I called someone to repair it. It turns out the replacement hinge alone was CAD$400, plus the repair cost was on top of that.
I asked him why the hinge cost so much. He said it was a low volume high end boutique fridge, and an older model too. The manufacturer doesn’t keep many spare parts for those around as they don’t sell many, and it’s aimed a very niche high end market, so their price reflects that. (Fridges of that class go for around CAD$10000. I didn’t buy it. It came with the house with a wood door that matched my cabinets.) Sounds a lot like the current Mac Pro.If I had a lower end mainstream fridge, the hinges would have been about $50-$100. I ended up replacing it later with a CAD$3300 Samsung upper mid-end mainstream fridge from Costco. It is still an expensive fridge, but it’s literally only 1/3 the cost. However, there were some compromises. It no longer matched the cabinets, and it was significantly shorter as the old fridge was 7 feet tall. To fill in the space, I went to Ikea and bought a cabinet to fit the space and put a stainless steel door on it. It’s not an exact match but close enough, and overall the combination suits my needs. When that dies or when I renovate the kitchen, I’ll probably get something similar. I won’t put in a cheap $1500 fridge though. They are not only worse quality, they also are usually somewhat less functional and look like crap.
This is a good analogy for my Mac purchasing habits. Mid-end products at the upper level of overall mid-end computer pricing that reflects my preferences for usability, performance, and aesthetics, but I won’t get the uber high end boutique stuff.
I’d consider paying US$299 for an 11” Pro Magic Keyboard. The keyboard uses the Smart Connector, has a USB-C charging port for the iPad Pro thereby freeing up the USB-C data port, is backlit, is full size with a good keyboard feel, and raises the iPad off the table for improved ergonomics. There is nothing else in existence that matches it AFAIK. However I see that Best Buy sells them significantly cheaper for open box, so I’d chance getting the latter. These prices are high, but they aren’t US$699 wheels type of high.
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I wonder what the mix of Mac Pro sales are for people buying for themselves versus companies buying for employee use? I'll bet it is heavily tilted towards the latter.
Just look at all the ways your workplace wastes money, and in much bigger chunks than buying $699 wheels when $199 wheels or maybe cheaper were available if they shopped around.
I'm not really sure what the market is for being able to wheel your computer around (it can't go far with all the cables it will have tethering it to a fairly specific area) so those wheels are probably a very low volume product. Maybe some of Apple's own people using Mac Pros wanted wheels for some reason so they had to make them an option?
It is funny that Apple releases something hardly anyone needs and Twitter goes crazy whining about the price. I wouldn't care if they offered a custom paint job with go faster racing stripes for $10,000. If there were people who want that, well hey that's their decision so long as they aren't using my credit card to pay! Might as well complain about that friend we all have who owns like a dozen ultra high end watches. I guess it makes him happy, so why should I care how he spends his money even if I personally think it is ridiculous?
Just look at all the ways your workplace wastes money, and in much bigger chunks than buying $699 wheels when $199 wheels or maybe cheaper were available if they shopped around.
I'm not really sure what the market is for being able to wheel your computer around (it can't go far with all the cables it will have tethering it to a fairly specific area) so those wheels are probably a very low volume product. Maybe some of Apple's own people using Mac Pros wanted wheels for some reason so they had to make them an option?
It is funny that Apple releases something hardly anyone needs and Twitter goes crazy whining about the price. I wouldn't care if they offered a custom paint job with go faster racing stripes for $10,000. If there were people who want that, well hey that's their decision so long as they aren't using my credit card to pay! Might as well complain about that friend we all have who owns like a dozen ultra high end watches. I guess it makes him happy, so why should I care how he spends his money even if I personally think it is ridiculous?
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I've been told that people who want to wheel their computers around are really only in the office setting. If you buy the Mac Pro wheels up front, they're $399. They're $699 when you buy them after the fact. I could see a company buying 4 Mac Pros and putting wheels for $399 on one of two of them in case they need to be moved to the conference room for customer demos etc.
All I know is that I recently got a free 2 x dual-core Xeon 5150 cheese grater Mac Pro and it's super, super heavy. I got tired just carrying it the half block distance to my car and had to stop half way there to rest my forearms. It's 42 lbs, and the new 2019 Mac Pro is 40 lbs.
P.S. I bought two quad-core Xeon E5345 chips for it for <$20 off eBay, and with those the performance is quite decent. And then I found an 8-core model with two 3.0 GHz quad-core Xeon X5365 chips for about US$75 on Kijiji so I bought that too, and performance is even better. The latter scores about 2250 in Geekbench 5 multi-core, which is about the speed I recommend for an entry level Mac in 2020. Too bad I can't go past 10.11 El Capitan with those old Mac Pros.
Inflation has not caused a 40% price increase from $350 to $500 (350*1.4=490)
It is merely a "saturated market" and thus leading edge tech does not attract most users for existing tech is good enough and thus there is little downward pressure with prices where people will change their buying habits due to price, instead of wanting a feature X and are willing to pay almost anything to achieve it.
Simultaneously New Tech Features in this Saturated Market have little value to most users (for existing tech is good enough), only a few people care about things like Virtual Reality and so on. Only people who have a psychographic profile of Innovators / Technologists and Early Adopters / Tech Enthusiasts want cutting edge tech that still has not proved the value to them.
The group of Pragmatists are different. They like technology just like the Enthusiasts but they can't stand bullshit, thus they critique things like Apple Reality Distortion Field and so on. Simultaneously though get the Enthusiasts in your corner and your device is ready for primetime. It is going to be the future, there is social proof, it just takes a few years for the non tech savvy to catch on. The Pragmatists are pragmatic not because they are more reasonable than everyone else it is merely they provide a sit and shift mechanism in regards to innovation, trying to seperate the good ideas that are ready right now from the things that look cool and are not ready YET.
Take for example VR and AR. It just is not there yet. Yet millions of people are interested in the new PS5 and XBox S / X consoles for other reasons besides VR and AR. Yet soon in the next 5 years or maybe 10 years expect to see Apple and other companies to be releasing some form of goggles that will provide some interactions with the world around you. The difference is this tech will have to be actually useful in the day to day, for things like 2013's Google Glass just was not ready for Prime Time.
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Prices for new tech is often tied to when a technology is ready for Prime Time and during other times you are paying extra for bleeding edge tech. This is not price inflation though! It is about innovation, new markets, and whether the existing market is saturated or not saturated.
EUG! But Why? 🤣
Even John Siracusa has moved past his old fashioned Cheese Graters. To make those devices usable you need some SSD magic and you are just putting good money after bad for the limiting factor is the processor.
That said the case for them are awesome. Add some nice wood and you can have a good work bench if you need something 21 inches high (which is not the right height for many things.)
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I paid US$22 for a 120 GB SSD for OS X, and I already had an old SSD for Windows 10. I won’t go broke with that type of spending.
Anyhow, I have an old Mac collection and the cheese grater is one I always wanted to add. One of my two Mac Pros is on display on my wall.
All are fully functional. However, obviously they are not in active use. My daily use Macs are from 2017.
I have been trying to understand Apple gpu architecure, i understand that Mali G78 gpus have 1 execution engine per core, and each execution engine has 2 Datapath (each 16-lane wide). 32 per core. for adreno 650 we have got 2 cores with 512 ALUs per core. what about apple a12 or a13 GPUs? 256-384 ALUs per core perhaps? A14 won't be much different considering how small the increment was.
Will Apple provide SVE in their ARM-based HEDT machines?
Reading ARM's website, their targetted use of SVE seems to be HPC and data-centres, and the internet out to the edge, but not beyond.
However, they do support running tools such as Forge on home computers, to develop SVE applications on the cloud, in the face of Covid-19.
Reading ARM's website, their targetted use of SVE seems to be HPC and data-centres, and the internet out to the edge, but not beyond.
However, they do support running tools such as Forge on home computers, to develop SVE applications on the cloud, in the face of Covid-19.
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