Apparently the terrorists aren't scaring enough people

[jonks]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: BoberFett
You can't fight terrorism with machine guns.

You're right, but they do work wonders on terrorists.

No they don't. The thing about terrorists is that you don't know who they are until they've already committed the act. Machine guns do not stop terrorists.

There are terrorists besides suicide bombers and shooting them works pretty good. And any member of a terrorist organization is a terrorist, whether or not they have already committed an terrorist act. If we raid an Al Qaeda outpost and capture 50 bad guys, they aren't terrorists because they hadn't done anything yet? If there was a firefight should we not shoot because machineguns don't stop terrorists? I'm descending into obsurdity because I can't fathom your argument.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: BoberFett
You can't fight terrorism with machine guns.

You're right, but they do work wonders on terrorists.

No they don't. The thing about terrorists is that you don't know who they are until they've already committed the act. Machine guns do not stop terrorists.

There are terrorists besides suicide bombers and shooting them works pretty good. And any member of a terrorist organization is a terrorist, whether or not they have already committed an terrorist act. If we raid an Al Qaeda outpost and capture 50 bad guys, they aren't terrorists because they hadn't done anything yet? If there was a firefight should we not shoot because machineguns don't stop terrorists? I'm descending into obsurdity because I can't fathom your argument.

Are you saying there are al Qaeda outposts on front steps of various building in New York City?

Sorry, but attacks on US soil WILL NOT be a bunch of Muslims with AK47s. They WILL be suicide bombers. Thugs with machine guns standing in front of the local Starbucks will not stop them.

You're descending in absurdity because your logic is absurd.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: BoberFett
You can't fight terrorism with machine guns.

You're right, but they do work wonders on terrorists.

No they don't. The thing about terrorists is that you don't know who they are until they've already committed the act. Machine guns do not stop terrorists.

There are terrorists besides suicide bombers and shooting them works pretty good. And any member of a terrorist organization is a terrorist, whether or not they have already committed an terrorist act. If we raid an Al Qaeda outpost and capture 50 bad guys, they aren't terrorists because they hadn't done anything yet? If there was a firefight should we not shoot because machineguns don't stop terrorists? I'm descending into obsurdity because I can't fathom your argument.

Are you saying there are al Qaeda outposts on front steps of various building in New York City?

Sorry, but attacks on US soil WILL NOT be a bunch of Muslims with AK47s. They WILL be suicide bombers. Thugs with machine guns standing in front of the local Starbucks will not stop them.

You're descending in absurdity because your logic is absurd.

Absurd, eh? Fort Dix?? How quickly we forget.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/...ortdix.plot/index.html
The six -- three of them brothers -- were arrested Monday night "as two of the defendants were meeting a confidential government witness to purchase three AK-47 automatic machine guns, and four semi-automatic M-16s to be used in an attack they had been planning from at least January 2006," according to a news release from the U.S. Attorney's Office.

And FYI, Penn Station, Grand Central Station and other spots in NYC have had military personnel with machine guns stationed at them since 9/11. I don't think they are there to deter muggings.

 

[BoberFett]

Fort Dix is in the heart of New York City? How many machine gun toting government thugs do you propose this country should have wandering the streets? Do you realize how many it require to have them in the right place at the right time to catch a small arms attack?

And do you think terrorists are so stupid that if they see these guys standing around with machine guns that they won't just drive around the block to a different target? If New York was serious about stopping terrorists with small arms, they'd allow people to carry pistols. No, machine gun toting thugs are all about intimidating the citizenry.

 

[Vonkhan]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And FYI, Penn Station, Grand Central Station and other spots in NYC have had military personnel with machine guns stationed at them since 9/11. I don't think they are there to deter muggings.

Really? I work 2 blocks from Grand Central, take a train from there every day - never seen any. How strange. I haven't seen any at Penn either granted I don't go there as much, none in Times Sq, Union Sq, Financial District, Museum Mile, etc. either.

Or do you mean M-16s / M-4s?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Vonkhan

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And FYI, Penn Station, Grand Central Station and other spots in NYC have had military personnel with machine guns stationed at them since 9/11. I don't think they are there to deter muggings.

Really? I work 2 blocks from Grand Central, take a train from there every day - never seen any. How strange. I haven't seen any at Penn either granted I don't go there as much, none in Times Sq, Union Sq, Financial District, Museum Mile, etc. either.

Or do you mean M-16s / M-4s?

According to our government, those are machine guns.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If New York was serious about stopping terrorists with small arms, they'd allow people to carry pistols. No, machine gun toting thugs are all about intimidating the citizenry.

Precisely right. Regular street patrol officers have a better chance of catching something going down than this machine gun toting goon squad.

Allowing responsible citizens to carry small arms is the only way to counter small arms terrorism. Just look at Israel.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Vonkhan

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And FYI, Penn Station, Grand Central Station and other spots in NYC have had military personnel with machine guns stationed at them since 9/11. I don't think they are there to deter muggings.

Really? I work 2 blocks from Grand Central, take a train from there every day - never seen any. How strange. I haven't seen any at Penn either granted I don't go there as much, none in Times Sq, Union Sq, Financial District, Museum Mile, etc. either.

Or do you mean M-16s / M-4s?

According to our government, those are machine guns.

In my poor man's lexicon those are machine guns. Are they technically assault rifles?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More like police city. Seeing as it is New York City doing it, and not New York State.

The show of force like that is blatantly stupid, considering we?re not in an active period of repeated attacks against us. NYC does not need to be patrolled like Iraq, if the need arises for that I?m sure we?ll all know it. Until then, it is up to the NYC residents to tell their city what not to do.

Um, when someone says "police state" they are referring not necessarily to what the US defines as a state... you do realize that right?

I think that distinction is important. It determines the size and scope of the problem, as well as how easy it is to get personal with those behind it and enact pressure against them to change their policy.

It is easier to move a smaller group in a city than the entire nation of 300 million. Or even a state of 10 million (or however many NY is).

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Vonkhan

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And FYI, Penn Station, Grand Central Station and other spots in NYC have had military personnel with machine guns stationed at them since 9/11. I don't think they are there to deter muggings.

Really? I work 2 blocks from Grand Central, take a train from there every day - never seen any. How strange. I haven't seen any at Penn either granted I don't go there as much, none in Times Sq, Union Sq, Financial District, Museum Mile, etc. either.

Or do you mean M-16s / M-4s?

According to our government, those are machine guns.

In my poor man's lexicon those are machine guns. Are they technically assault rifles?

Yes. A machine gun is generally a bit heavier, and capable of sustained full auto fire. Firing an M-16 type weapon on full auto for more than 300 rounds or so will ruin it (at least the barrel.)

No matter what you want to call it, the police are carrying them around the streets scaring the crap out of people, while those same people aren't allowed to own them in their own home. :roll:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If New York was serious about stopping terrorists with small arms, they'd allow people to carry pistols. No, machine gun toting thugs are all about intimidating the citizenry.

Precisely right. Regular street patrol officers have a better chance of catching something going down than this machine gun toting goon squad.

Allowing responsible citizens to carry small arms is the only way to counter small arms terrorism. Just look at Israel.

I'm with you on this thread, I think security theater is getting WAY out of hand in this country.

But honestly, what the hell are "small arms terrorists"? That is, as far as I know, almost a totally nonexistent threat outside of a really terrible Tom Clancy book. Guns are not an efficient way to cause terrorism, they are just too common and too inefficient at causing large scale damage. It's easy to imagine a movie plot where terrorists might try something, but I don't think it's too likely in real life.

 

[fallout man]

I wonder how receptive these "police officers" would be to a citizen walking up to them and asking them to help get their cat out of the tree, or report that their child is missing, or that their car has been stolen. I bet that citizen would get the "go fuck off, this is serious business" response.

If they're going to be there just for show, then why not hire actors with airsoft rifles? Actors don't get paid ridiculous overtime.

 

[tomywishbone]

These guys are great . They give the drunks somebody to laugh at.

 

[tvarad]

All I can see in these guys is Sylvester the cat trying to catch Speedy Gonzales in the act (of stealing the cheese). I can see the terrorist running between the legs of one of these guys, planting his bomb, and getting away before he can say "Sufferin' succotash".

And the article is like Sylvester explaining one of the elaborate traps he's set up for speedy. And you know how that ends.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: tvarad
And you know how that ends.

Speedy lands a job as US Attorney General, and locks Sylvester up in the dog-house without charges?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If New York was serious about stopping terrorists with small arms, they'd allow people to carry pistols. No, machine gun toting thugs are all about intimidating the citizenry.

Precisely right. Regular street patrol officers have a better chance of catching something going down than this machine gun toting goon squad.

Allowing responsible citizens to carry small arms is the only way to counter small arms terrorism. Just look at Israel.

I'm with you on this thread, I think security theater is getting WAY out of hand in this country.

But honestly, what the hell are "small arms terrorists"? That is, as far as I know, almost a totally nonexistent threat outside of a really terrible Tom Clancy book. Guns are not an efficient way to cause terrorism, they are just too common and too inefficient at causing large scale damage. It's easy to imagine a movie plot where terrorists might try something, but I don't think it's too likely in real life.

Terrorist plans have been uncovered in the past to simultaneously target multiple shopping malls across the country just after Thanksgiving using assault rifles and home made pipe bombs. Inflicting only 20 deaths per target would cause massive damage to the economy, and spell the end of many retail businesses that depend on the holiday season to pull them into the black.

 

[JTsyo]

Does everyone here real not understand the point of these exercises? They don't hope to be there just at the right time a terrorist attacks. They just setting up an unpredictable patrol so it makes it harder for terrorist to plan attacks. If you were in a terrorist cell of 5 people and wanted to do the maximum damage would you choose a target in downtown that that had these patrols go by and run the risk of being killed pretty quickly or would you pick a softer target somewhere?

 

[soccerballtux]

I used to be against this sort of thing; but considering this is in New York, and considering how absolutely horrible the crime was not 20 years ago, and seeing how it is now, I don't have such a problem. Giuliani basically gave NYPD free reign to do whatever they needed; because that was the only thing that was going to fix New York. It's not nearly as unsafe as it used to be.

Now if this starts showing up in other cities with a lower propensity to crime, this would be a different story.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
I'm not sure why she's an authority, but whatever. Regardless, this article has NYPD patrolling around the city conducting training exercises...why the freakout? Calling them jackbooted thugs makes no sense to me. They're cops, they wear boots, they have guns. Show me one example of them depriving a person of their rights that wasn't publicly addressed. You think they are holding NY residents captive somewhere? I will be alarmed when I hear something worth being alarmed about. This ain't it.

Seeing as the Patriot Act and The Military Commissions Act have worked together to allow a US citizen to be declared an enemy combatant thereby revoking their right to Habeus Corpus and YOUR ability to hear about them being detained, how can you make that statement? I'm not saying that people are being whisked away in the night just yet, but the laws are in place to make it happen. Now all that remains is to make the scene common place so people don't pay too much notice to it when it occurs in front of them. And, it would seem that's coming along nicely.

Originally posted by: vonkhan
I work in midtown, seen this happen a few times now esp. on Lex. Ave.

First time, you're like WTF ?!! the next few times ... nm, its just NYPD trying to figure who eated their cookie

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: sirjonk
I'm not sure why she's an authority, but whatever. Regardless, this article has NYPD patrolling around the city conducting training exercises...why the freakout? Calling them jackbooted thugs makes no sense to me. They're cops, they wear boots, they have guns. Show me one example of them depriving a person of their rights that wasn't publicly addressed. You think they are holding NY residents captive somewhere? I will be alarmed when I hear something worth being alarmed about. This ain't it.

Seeing as the Patriot Act and The Military Commissions Act have worked together to allow a US citizen to be declared an enemy combatant thereby revoking their right to Habeus Corpus and YOUR ability to hear about them being detained, how can you make that statement? I'm not saying that people are being whisked away in the night just yet, but the laws are in place to make it happen. Now all that remains is to make the scene common place so people don't pay too much notice to it when it occurs in front of them. And, it would seem that's coming along nicely.

Originally posted by: vonkhan
I work in midtown, seen this happen a few times now esp. on Lex. Ave.

First time, you're like WTF ?!! the next few times ... nm, its just NYPD trying to figure who eated their cookie

I am against the suspension of habeus corpus and the current treatment even of enemy combatants disgustingly justified under the current administration, but if the government/CIA wanted you disappeared any time in the last 50 years they didn't need to wait for legal backing to make it happen.

 

[Auric]

That would be perfect cover for tangos or any criminals for that matter. Citizens and other authorities would be so blasé that they wouldn't pay them no nevermind, leaving said ne'er-do-wells to carry on as they please until 'twas too late to interfere in their nefarious scheme.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: sirjonk
I'm not sure why she's an authority, but whatever. Regardless, this article has NYPD patrolling around the city conducting training exercises...why the freakout? Calling them jackbooted thugs makes no sense to me. They're cops, they wear boots, they have guns. Show me one example of them depriving a person of their rights that wasn't publicly addressed. You think they are holding NY residents captive somewhere? I will be alarmed when I hear something worth being alarmed about. This ain't it.

Seeing as the Patriot Act and The Military Commissions Act have worked together to allow a US citizen to be declared an enemy combatant thereby revoking their right to Habeus Corpus and YOUR ability to hear about them being detained, how can you make that statement? I'm not saying that people are being whisked away in the night just yet, but the laws are in place to make it happen. Now all that remains is to make the scene common place so people don't pay too much notice to it when it occurs in front of them. And, it would seem that's coming along nicely.

Originally posted by: vonkhan
I work in midtown, seen this happen a few times now esp. on Lex. Ave.

First time, you're like WTF ?!! the next few times ... nm, its just NYPD trying to figure who eated their cookie

"Dude, what the fuck just happened to Bob?"
"Oh, probably just a training excercise."

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

Did you even read the article? He specifically says he wants to only scare the right people...meaning it should be intimidating for anyone who might have the idea of causing a person/place harm. I think New Yorkers deserve that piece of mind and reassurance. If you've done nothing wrong, you really don't have any reason to be fearful of the cops do you? Detectives were monitoring the crowd for people taking notes, etc. Why do you think someone would take notes if they weren't a reporter? Oh....maybe to learn how to counter the team if they did want to cause trouble? Or what schedules they follow, who's working in the team, etc. I think it's pretty sad that you'll compare this to the KGB. Criminals get more rights than victims and cops are under more scrutiny now than ever. I doubt the red arm band is close. I also think it's pretty sad that you compare this to the KGB. You obviously know very little about that organization, especially for growing up in a communist country. I guess the cops should just give up. Seems like the NYPD can't get anything right without people jumping all over them.

I really want to smack the person who wrote that article comment back to reality. I think he hit every cliche possible.

Best comic I saw about this sort of thing:
Two Jewish guys, in Germany before WWIII. One of them says, "We're not doing anything wrong, so we don't have anything to worry about."

When the definition of "wrong" is subject to change, anyone can be accused of anything.

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Nebor
Exactly. You get used to it. They get more and more militarized. The first time you see them drag off one of your coworkers for dissenting speech, you'll be like WTF. The next few times, you just get used to it.

This seems a little alarmist. I'm not sure how you make the jump from NYC cops patrolling the city and conducting counter-terrorism exercises and techniques to dragging away NYC residents for dissent. When they just wanted to search subway goer's bags after 9/11 the city essentially had a crapfest. When something worth being worried about arises, I'll take notice. Until then I'm not jumping at shadows cast by the people who are trying to keep us safe, and who personally know the price of failing to do so.

According to Naomi Wolf, there are 10 things the gov't would do in order to change a democracy to fascism...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...se-down-a_b_46695.html

1 Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2 Create a gulag
3 Develop a thug caste
4 Set up an internal surveillance system
5 Harass citizens' groups
6 Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7 Target key individuals
8 Control the press
9 Dissent equals treason
10 Suspend the rule of law

I'm not sure why she's an authority, but whatever. Regardless, this article has NYPD patrolling around the city conducting training exercises...why the freakout? Calling them jackbooted thugs makes no sense to me. They're cops, they wear boots, they have guns. Show me one example of them depriving a person of their rights that wasn't publicly addressed. You think they are holding NY residents captive somewhere? I will be alarmed when I hear something worth being alarmed about. This ain't it.

History can also repeat itself because some reject the idea of history reoccurring during the present. It will happen in "the future" but not now, and certainly will not involve me. It's a dangerous path to take. It's one which has been followed before, and we've seen the destination. Do we continue to follow it anyway?

 

[halik]

Bah,
NYSE have had SWAT-geared cops chilling up front for years now. They're cool guys, I used to talked to 'em over lunch and stuff. They just hang out and have tourists take pictures with 'em.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
It's a dangerous path to take. It's one which has been followed before, and we've seen the destination. Do we continue to follow it anyway?

Why, do you hate America??!!