APM in RTS, overrated?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q&feature=player_embedded

it looks like he is just spamming keys just for the sake of raising APM.

seriously, wtf is he doing? there's no way those are actually any meaningful commands being used to control units.

 

[Ika]

Just because you can't tell what he's doing doesn't mean he's not doing anything.


To clarify - APM as a number in itself doesn't mean anything, but it's representative of how much a player can divide his focus and still play well. i.e. APM is extremely important in starcraft, because to be able to attack and produce at the same time requires you to divide your attention. the less time you spend producing your units (using hotkeys to produce) the more time you can spend on your micro.

also in the early game you'll see players spamming commands like selecting workers, repeatedly selecting rally points, etc. I'm not 100% sure why they do this but I think it's to fire up their nervous system for the intense APM they're going to do over the next 10-15 minutes. ESPORTS IS SRS BZNS

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

...or how fast you can spam a button.

 

[Zargon]

looks like he mostly just cycling the units

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Spamming buttons isn't directly useful being able to micro while producing, which benefits greatly with high APM, is useful. Overrated would imply there's people claiming it has more of an effect than it does, which most people do not do. Most people who spam buttons do so to try to keep a steady apm through the game as it's harder to ramp up your apm when you need it than maintain a steady rate.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Spamming buttons isn't directly useful being able to micro while producing, which benefits greatly with high APM, is useful. Overrated would imply there's people claiming it has more of an effect than it does, which most people do not do. Most people who spam buttons do so to try to keep a steady apm through the game as it's harder to ramp up your apm when you need it than maintain a steady rate.

read the subtitles of the video. they go on and on about maintaining a 300+ APM.

and what's the point of artificially boosting your APM by spamming early game? just to inflate the number?
lame-o.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

and what's the point of artificially boosting your APM by spamming early game? just to inflate the number?
lame-o.

I explained it in the post you quoted

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I explained it in the post you quoted

and i asked, what's the point in having a high APM?
for internet cred?

 

[Ika]

and i asked, what's the point in having a high APM?
for internet cred?

pro gamers do not brag about APM for APM's sake, they talk about APM as a measure of how quickly someone is able to produce. If two players are equally skilled but one has a 300+ APM and the other has 150+ APM, the guy with the lower APM will lose because he will lose time when producing and is at a disadvantage when microing.

in other words, APM is CORRELATED with skill - this is NOT a CAUSATIVE relationship.

 

[Ika]

and i asked, what's the point in having a high APM?
for internet cred?

Let me put it in other terms - the APM of a player is like a synthetic benchmark of a video card. Sure, you can artificially inflate how the video card (player) "performs" on the benchmark (APM), but in the end it's the video card's pixel-pushing capacity (game skill) that decides how "good" the video card (player) is.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

and i asked, what's the point in having a high APM?
for internet cred?

Wow... the answer is in the post you first quoted...

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

pro gamers do not brag about APM for APM's sake, they talk about APM as a measure of how quickly someone is able to produce. If two players are equally skilled but one has a 300+ APM and the other has 150+ APM, the guy with the lower APM will lose because he will lose time when producing and is at a disadvantage when microing.

in other words, APM is CORRELATED with skill - this is NOT a CAUSATIVE relationship.

i'll take a guy who is skilled and not spamming buttons but instead doing a small number of meaningful and useful commands, rather than a guy with a high APM because he's spamming.

 

[Ika]

i'll take a guy who is skilled and not spamming buttons but instead doing a small number of meaningful and useful commands, rather than a guy with a high APM because he's spamming.

it's much harder to "burst" APM than it is to maintain APM at that level.

 

[Taejin]

look we have morons in the thread questioning pro gamer practices

I bet said morons know better, right? After this is AT.. +$200k/yr, 5 cars, 2 trophy wives, and a billion dollar mansion.

 

[alcoholbob]

Of course speed is irrelevant when you make the wrong decisions

Yes, alot of people spammed APM. The important thing is to look at the APM Over Time, to track their performance in battle.

 

[TecHNooB]

The idea is that if you can maintain a high apm while doing a lot of tasks at once (on many different places of the map) then you are more likely to win. Of course, apm alone won't win. Tactics come first. But I have seen sc players with great tactics who fail to execute their tactics to their full potential because their macro abilities are weak. Similarly, there are people who have ridiculous apm but cannot macro or micro. If you can manage your base, your main army movement, as well as conduct nonstop harass/raids while maintaining a high apm, you are in good shape. If you are particularly slow but are doing well nevertheless, you're probably not playing a very good player. There are protoss who used to manage at around 100-120 apm due to superior tactics and macro but iccup has raised the bar a lot. I'd say around 200 is sufficient for the average person. APM is only a small part of the equation.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

look we have morons in the thread questioning pro gamer practices

I bet said morons know better, right? After this is AT.. +$200k/yr, 5 cars, 2 trophy wives, and a billion dollar mansion.

sorry, didn't mean to offend the korean.
was that you in the video cool guy?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

it's much harder to "burst" APM than it is to maintain APM at that level.

possibly true.
but just based on that video, a lot of his actions seemed more like spam.

 

[OmegaShadow]

for people who have high apm they speak damn SLLOOOOOWWWW

 

[Taejin]

sorry, didn't mean to offend the korean.
was that you in the video cool guy?

good know you recognize yourself ..

never been a professional gamer.. so I'd have to say no

 

[Udgnim]

depends on the RTS, high APM in Starcraft allows you to pull off strategies not possible with low APM

the APM clips in the video aren't the best choice too. the Starcraft clip was in early game so all the Starcraft player could do was APM spam, and Warcraft 3 is a low APM game.

here's a video of a 400 APM Stracraft player in the mid-game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDTboApMG-s&feature=related

 

[shortylickens]

pro gamers do not brag about APM for APM's sake, they talk about APM as a measure of how quickly someone is able to produce. If two players are equally skilled but one has a 300+ APM and the other has 150+ APM, the guy with the lower APM will lose because he will lose time when producing and is at a disadvantage when microing.

in other words, APM is CORRELATED with skill - this is NOT a CAUSATIVE relationship.

Which is why I dislike Starcraft and Warcraft. They are town managers first and wargames second.
I'd rather have the action. Thats why I prefer Act of War, Supreme Commander, World In Conflict and Dawn of War. Overall much less resource managing and much more combat.
Even Age of Mythology is more action-oriented.

 

[Firsttime]

Which is why I dislike Starcraft and Warcraft. They are town managers first and wargames second.
I'd rather have the action. Thats why I prefer Act of War, Supreme Commander, World In Conflict and Dawn of War. Overall much less resource managing and much more combat.
Even Age of Mythology is more action-oriented.

I disagree. It's not about town managing, it's about map dominance. It's important to secure resource locations in Starcraft not so you can have a kick ass town, but rather so you can dominate the map by being able to strike from multiple locations and have the resources late game to keep 5 barracks and 7 factories going steady.

As for APM. There is no such thing as wasted key strokes. Even if it doesn't appear to do anything it's keeping your fingers moving. Here's a lame comparison, but you keep your fingers going all the time for the same reason joggers keep their legs moving while they wait to cross streets. Not because it's getting them somewhere but because once the light turns and they go their legs are primed and ready. You can't burst a 350 APM, it doesn't happen.

 

[I4AT]

There's a reason no one outside of Korea (other than Grrr) has ever won an international SC tournament. Yes, APM is that important. There's also a reason veterans like Boxer, Nada, and Nal-Ra just can't compete with the new generation of pro gamers. They still have the best unit control in the game, but it no longer matters because the younger kids can simply macro their way out of any early game shennanigans thanks to their higher APM aka stronger multitasking abilities.

 

[ixelion]

I can tell you on guitar, I have to do bursts of scale fragments up to 208-212 bpm in order to sustain a continuous 192bpm.

It purely a physical thing, a warm up to get blood flowing into your fingers, and to develop some muscle memory.

All that spamming in the beginning of the match is just warm up.