APM in RTS, overrated?

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Which is why I dislike Starcraft and Warcraft. They are town managers first and wargames second.
I'd rather have the action. Thats why I prefer Act of War, Supreme Commander, World In Conflict and Dawn of War. Overall much less resource managing and much more combat.
Even Age of Mythology is more action-oriented.

There's a reason starcraft has had a pro scene for 12 years, and it isn't because it's a town manager first or lacks action. Both of which are false.

 

[onza]

Hey dudes,

I've been playing SC1 and SC2 for a while.. In regards to the APM debate, I wouldn't call it spamming, but it's actually a way to watch your unit cool downs and see where things are in terms of production. Basically they are watching the build time and getting ready to Q more units. So it's not really spamming if you view it in this manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actions_per_minute

 

[CurseTheSky]

In the video, at least in the Warcraft III segment, he's doing a whole lotta nothing for the key spamming we get to watch. Look specifically when he has his DH attacking the group of ogres.

Warcraft III is a much slower-paced game than Starcraft, and much more focused around army composition, creeping, and micro. With that said, You could probably do ~50-100 APM and be just fine. It really looks like he's just trying to act cool.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

In the video, at least in the Warcraft III segment, he's doing a whole lotta nothing for the key spamming we get to watch. Look specifically when he has his DH attacking the group of ogres.

Warcraft III is a much slower-paced game than Starcraft, and much more focused around army composition, creeping, and micro. With that said, You could probably do ~50-100 APM and be just fine. It really looks like he's just trying to act cool.

someone gets my point.

 

[Firsttime]

He was doing stuff with his production too, hence the "insufficient gold." In addition it looks like he kept going back to his other soldiers to hit the stop key. I don't think there was much spamming going on there, he was doing some things what looked like the long way, but I'm sure there is a reason for it.

 

[simonizor]

That video is the exact reason that I don't play any RTS games. I prefer simple control schemes rather than having to memorize what half of they keys on my keyboard do and then learn how to press them as fast as possible. That just doesn't sound like any fun to me.

If you care about your APM more than you care about winning the game, you're missing the point of playing the game in the first place. Gaming isn't supposed to be how hard you can work to do something; it's supposed to be about relieving stress and having fun. Seeing how many APM you can do just to be cool in Asia doesn't sound like it would accomplish either of those things.

 

[Taejin]

someone gets my point.

your 'point' is moronic. you honestly think progamers sit around scheming how to raise their apm so they look cooler?

"Oh yeah I'm going to press a sequence of keys really rapidly so people will admire me."

no you fucking nitwit, they do it because it helps them win. whether you're too fucking dense to see it is not their problem.

 

[Red Storm]

your 'point' is moronic. you honestly think progamers sit around scheming how to raise their apm so they look cooler?

"Oh yeah I'm going to press a sequence of keys really rapidly so people will admire me."

no you fucking nitwit, they do it because it helps them win. whether you're too fucking dense to see it is not their problem.

A bit harsh, but yes. OP, the only one that really seems to care about APM here is you. Never have I seen competitive RTS gamers brag about APM as if it was the only indicator of skill. As a few have already said, they spam a lot when a match first starts to get themselves in the mindset for all the rapid macro and micro that lies ahead. The same way people in any sport/activity like to practice movements/actions that will soon be utilized.

 

[simonizor]

your 'point' is moronic. you honestly think progamers sit around scheming how to raise their apm so they look cooler?

"Oh yeah I'm going to press a sequence of keys really rapidly so people will admire me."

no you fucking nitwit, they do it because it helps them win. whether you're too fucking dense to see it is not their problem.

The way that video looked, I sincerely think that they do in the Asian countries. Gaming seems to be more of a sport than a past time over there.

 

[videogames101]

That video is the exact reason that I don't play any RTS games. I prefer simple control schemes rather than having to memorize what half of they keys on my keyboard do and then learn how to press them as fast as possible. That just doesn't sound like any fun to me.

If you care about your APM more than you care about winning the game, you're missing the point of playing the game in the first place. Gaming isn't supposed to be how hard you can work to do something; it's supposed to be about relieving stress and having fun. Seeing how many APM you can do just to be cool in Asia doesn't sound like it would accomplish either of those things.

Maybe thats how you view it, but it's not a fact, but an opinion. Some people play to win, others don't. Live and let live.

 

[Ika]

The way thuat video looked, I sincerely think that they do in the Asian countries. Gaming seems to be more of a sport than a past time over there.

um... gaming IS a sport over there.

 

[Jschmuck2]

your 'point' is moronic. you honestly think progamers sit around scheming how to raise their apm so they look cooler?

"Oh yeah I'm going to press a sequence of keys really rapidly so people will admire me."

no you fucking nitwit, they do it because it helps them win. whether you're too fucking dense to see it is not their problem.

 

[shortylickens]

 

[Ben90]

If I turn my 104 N-key rollover keyboard upside down and press at a rate of 2hz I can pull off approximately 24,960 APM.

Once I get some strats down, no one will be able to handle me, and ill be the pro'est gamer ever.

 

[fatpat268]

And that's why I have zero interest in Starcraft or most other RTS games.

I just can't think that fast, lol, much less transfer that to the game.

For me, 20 APM would probably be high.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

That video is the exact reason that I don't play any RTS games. I prefer simple control schemes rather than having to memorize what half of they keys on my keyboard do and then learn how to press them as fast as possible. That just doesn't sound like any fun to me.

If you like the idea of RTS but not APM, you might enjoy the excellent Sins of a Solar Empire. It's a hybrid between a 4x and RTS that plays like an RTS with relatively little micromanagement required (which is what I love about it). It also has an online multiplayer component where people play 4v4 and 5v5. It's a great game and filled with strategy. Right now the game and the two expansions are on sale for $24 + cheap shipping.

http://www.gogamer.com/Sins-of-the-S...VVviewprod.htm

 

[JoshGuru7]

i'll take a guy who is skilled and not spamming buttons but instead doing a small number of meaningful and useful commands, rather than a guy with a high APM because he's spamming.

I assume that you are not a professional starcraft player. What makes you believe that you are informed enough to rationally critique their playstyles? It strikes me as remarkably arrogant to say that somebody a lot better than you at something is doing that thing wrong.

Experts in any subject matter usually know significantly less than they think they do (uncertainty estimates are far too narrow) but they still know more than non-experts (mean is closer to the "actual" mean).

 

[Ika]

I assume that you are not a professional starcraft player. What makes you believe that you are informed enough to rationally critique their playstyles? It strikes me as remarkably arrogant to say that somebody a lot better than you at something is doing that thing wrong.

Experts in any subject matter usually know significantly less than they think they do (uncertainty estimates are far too narrow) but they still know more than non-experts (mean is closer to the "actual" mean).

I assume you've never read any of his posts/threads in OT?

 

[Daverino]

This thread is equivalent to people arguing that bat speed is not important in Major League Baseball based on their experience playing beer league softball.

I don't even really play RTS and I certainly can't spam keys like he did in that video. But if it's pretty much accepted that faster APM helps in competitive RTS gaming, I'll accept that. A professional pool player will tell me that chalking my cue is important too, even though it has never helped me in any game of pool I've played.

I just take his word for it.

 

[thebomb]

That video is the exact reason that I don't play any RTS games. I prefer simple control schemes rather than having to memorize what half of they keys on my keyboard do and then learn how to press them as fast as possible. That just doesn't sound like any fun to me.

Memorizing hotkeys and being able to press them quickly is actually a small (but important) part of an RTS. They are the basic skills you need and honestly don't take that long to learn.

Imagine you are learning how to play soccer and I am telling you how to correctly hit the ball with your foot. What you're saying is:

"But I don't want to hit it the right way - it's too complicated! I just want to smash the ball across the field! I prefer simple kicking techniques rather than memorizing what part of my foot I need to use. That just doesn't sound like any fun to me".

 

[Taejin]

Memorizing hotkeys and being able to press them quickly is actually a small (but important) part of an RTS. They are the basic skills you need and honestly don't take that long to learn.

Imagine you are learning how to play soccer and I am telling you how to correctly hit the ball with your foot. What you're saying is:

"But I don't want to hit it the right way - it's too complicated! I just want to smash the ball across the field! I prefer simple kicking techniques rather than memorizing what part of my foot I need to use. That just doesn't sound like any fun to me".

I was tempted to respond to simonizer, but realized there is no point. In every game people play there are people of two mindsets, those who see the game for what it is, and those who impose their own values on it. Personally, I call this the pro vs. scrub mindset.

The 'pro' is not necessarily a good player, but a player who will work to better themselves under the confines of the game as it is designed. Every tool they see available to them they will use. The scrub will forever whine and complain about 'cheapness' and 'too hard' and other worthless tripe. There are times when the community as a whole designates a game as 'broken', and indeed it may be as such. But for many games that have found acceptance in the gaming world as well-designed, balanced games, the criticism leveled by scrubs is laughable at best.

fatpat may be of the former group. Notice how there is no value judgment on RTS games because of high APM. He simply chooses his battles, notes his personal deficiency, does not care, and decides to play another game. simonizer is of the latter group. It's fine to be a scrub. The scrub mindset is the mindset most people hold when playing games, because it allows them to rationalize their own deficiencies. "This game isn't good because they make you do things I consider unnecessary". This allows people to make them feel better about themselves, even if the issue is not really important (notice how simonizer attempts to ridicule the use of hotkeys, which actually makes gameplay way smoother). The scrub player's version of 'fun' is playing a game through the lens of their own made-up rules. This is 'fun' for them.

What isn't fine is for these players to constantly opine about what makes a game 'fun', because they approach the idea of 'fun' from a hopelessly subjectivist viewpoint.

 

[Gothgar]

that is fucking retarded

 

[JJChicken]

I was tempted to respond to simonizer, but realized there is no point. In every game people play there are people of two mindsets, those who see the game for what it is, and those who impose their own values on it. Personally, I call this the pro vs. scrub mindset.

The 'pro' is not necessarily a good player, but a player who will work to better themselves under the confines of the game as it is designed. Every tool they see available to them they will use. The scrub will forever whine and complain about 'cheapness' and 'too hard' and other worthless tripe. There are times when the community as a whole designates a game as 'broken', and indeed it may be as such. But for many games that have found acceptance in the gaming world as well-designed, balanced games, the criticism leveled by scrubs is laughable at best.

fatpat may be of the former group. Notice how there is no value judgment on RTS games because of high APM. He simply chooses his battles, notes his personal deficiency, does not care, and decides to play another game. simonizer is of the latter group. It's fine to be a scrub. The scrub mindset is the mindset most people hold when playing games, because it allows them to rationalize their own deficiencies. "This game isn't good because they make you do things I consider unnecessary". This allows people to make them feel better about themselves, even if the issue is not really important (notice how simonizer attempts to ridicule the use of hotkeys, which actually makes gameplay way smoother). The scrub player's version of 'fun' is playing a game through the lens of their own made-up rules. This is 'fun' for them.

What isn't fine is for these players to constantly opine about what makes a game 'fun', because they approach the idea of 'fun' from a hopelessly subjectivist viewpoint.

Spot on.

OP - I like you, I really do but don't go dissin' starcraft ya hear.

 

[SpicyCurry]

I can tell you on guitar, I have to do bursts of scale fragments up to 208-212 bpm in order to sustain a continuous 192bpm.

It purely a physical thing, a warm up to get blood flowing into your fingers, and to develop some muscle memory.

All that spamming in the beginning of the match is just warm up.

This. In the beginning of a Starcraft match, a pro Korean player WILL spam unnecessarily. It is not to keep their APM score high, but to keep their hands warm. As midgame approaches, the "spam" of keys become legitimate actions. Like another poster said before, it is easier to maintain the 300+ APM rather than to suddenly "turn it on" from 150 APM.