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Apartment Sound Proofing

H

hellfire88

Diamond Member
Hi Guys,
Just looking for some advice and thank you in advance for any given!

We just recently purchased a co-op apartment In NorthEast Queens in NYC. We love the space and the location. However, we have an unforeseen issue which we are looking to deal with to the best of our ability.

The co-op we purchased at is one of those "Garden Style" (so they say) apartments, where there are 2 floors only, and attached on either side as well. We are the 1st floor unit, and while our upstairs neighbor is a really nice older lady, she does not have carpeting in her apartment. What's silly is that she purchased her apartment awhile ago so she is "grandfathered in" to 60% carpeting (area rug), whereas since we are new owners they've since passed a rule that requires 100% wall-to-wall carpeting in the 2nd AND 1st floor units (which is silly since no one is below us!) so we have to do so and cover the nice hard-wood floors.

Anyways, the issue is that we can hear almost everything the lady upstairs does, from walking around squeaking the floor, hearing her talk and her TV sound, and she moves around furniture daily for some reason so can hear that as well. She has no carpeting and its an older building (1950s) so the wood floors are rather creaky (sub-floor or what-not).

We checked our ceiling and apparently there is 8inches of empty space (totally empty) between my ceiling and her floor (apparently this is up-to-code....), so no sound insulation at all. We spoke to her nicely and hinted and us willing to pay for her to get carpeting, but she likes her hard-wood floors. Thus I am looking into sound-proofing my ceiling, if that is even possible.

The contractors and handymen I've spoken to are offering 2 options:

A) Rip off current ceiling, put sound-proofing padding/foam into the 8inch cavity, and putting in a new ceiling via new sheetrock/drywall (1 or 2 layers, not sure).

B) Keeping existing ceilings, and just adding a "2nd ceiling" (extra layer) with this new product called "QuietRock" and/or "Green Glue" which is supposed to work wonders for sound-proofing

Obviously Option A is more expensive and intrusive (the place will get quite dirty/unlivable for awhile), but I feel it'll make more of a difference in the sound we hear (probably nothing will make it 100% but what can you do...). I don't think Option B (just add a 2nd layer) will be that effective.

Sorry for the long post, basically just asking if anyone has been in a similar situation and what you did to address this problem? Does anyone have any experiance with QuietRock or GreenGlue and can provide comments on how effect these products are? How much say, Percentage of decrease in sound can we expect with either Option A or B? Or can anyone recommend someone who's willing to work in the NE Queens area to do this project for us? We're basically putting our entire renovation plan (was going to redo the bathroom and install some new lights) on hold and am dedicated all $$ we have in budget to address this noise problem. We love our new place and the location is super convenient but just want it to be quieter! Thanks in advance!
 
I dunno if it's code, but you could try cutting holes in the ceiling and then injecting insulation foam until the cavity is completely filled.... It would deaden a lot of the noise, but I don't think it would deaden all of it...
 
I didn't read your OP. But...SOUND PROOF IS NOT THE SAME AS SOUND TREATMENT. Foam is sound treatment. Putting foam between the floor and ceiling will do absolutely nothing except MAYBE filter out some of the frequencies of the sound.

In order to SOUND PROOF, you need to ADD MASS to your walls. One of the best ways this can be achieved is to buy something called green glue, and some sheet rock. Place the glue on the sheet rock and stick it up against the wall, then screw it to the wall like normal.

If you pay me to come out to your place, I will gladly install this for you.
 
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Do the foam thing first and if that doesn't produce the desired effect, do the green glue/quiet rock thing second. Much better than doing it in the opposite order.

When we lived in NYC our upstairs neighbor was a professional roller skater with a wood floor. Think about it. We ended up being really good friends with him and the noise didn't bother us any more.
 
I'd probably pull the current ceiling, reinforce/repair/rebuild and all floor joist to try to eliminate squeaking, insulate, sheetrock and then greenglue another ceiling to it.

But then, I'd never in a million years live in a place where someone lived above me.
 
if it were me, I'd just suck it up.

I live below an old lady with hardwood floors. yes, I can hear her walking around, but it's also a good way to know she's still alive. if I went a day without hearing her, I'd probably make up an excuse to go upstairs and check on her.
 
Thanks guys for the quick feedback!

@BurnItDwn: I thought about that option as well, but dunno how good that blow-in insulation stuff is good at sound-proofing.

@Saint Nick: I'm trying to sound-proof my ceiling, and have a 8in empty space between my ceiling and my upstairs neighbors floor, so would you recommend filling in that 8in gap with sound-proofing stuff or just add a 2nd wall with GreenGlue like you mentioned (I gather you have experience with GreenGlue, is it good stuff?). If you are close to NE Queens feel free to PM me and we can work something out for installation services. I'm negative handy so need to find a handyman to do this work.

@princess ida: I hear ya that it'd make sense to do it in that order, but Option A (knocking down the ceiling and putting in soundproofing stuff) costs like 2x more than just adding a 2nd ceiling layer with green-glue, so if people are telling me that's pretty effective I'll just do that option. But I'm skeptical just adding a 2nd ceiling layer with greenglue and/or QuietRock will be that effective, but then again I'm no Acoustical Engineer.

@oldsmoboat: I'm leaning towards this too, but will cost me quite a lot (unforeseen expense!). I hear ya about apartment living, but unfortunately in our current situation and budget that's all we can get in the area. 🙁
 
loki8481 said:
if it were me, I'd just suck it up.

I live below an old lady with hardwood floors. yes, I can hear her walking around, but it's also a good way to know she's still alive. if I went a day without hearing her, I'd probably make up an excuse to go upstairs and check on her.
Click to expand...

That's what my family is telling me as well, and that I'm "too sensitive to sound" etc. But I feel that this is my first place, that I poured most of my life savings into, so I want to make it as enjoyable for me and my wife as possible to live in for the next 5-10yrs until we can move into a single-family detached house. Thus, I'm stalling all my other renovation plans/budget to deal with this sound issue first and foremost.
 
hellfire, do you know how the current walls are built in your apartment? Meaning, are they double stud, staggered stud, single stud at 16" or 24" OC...?

Also...I live in the middle of the country so, unless you want to pay my travel expenses... 🙂
 
hellfire, I'd like to direct you here and here. That provides a little insight into the effects of GreenGlue as well as adding mass.

In an ideal situation, with your likely single studded walls (16" OC), you would need to add two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue in between each layer. Also removing the current wall and adding R13 will help. This obviously could be very time consuming, especially if you have trim in your apartment, because it will have to be removed/destroyed.

If you can find an acoustical engineering consultant that can check the space out for you, you might be able to get away with only one layer. They might debate using MDF or QuietRock (medium density fiberboard) instead, but in an apartment, it probably won't make too much difference. QuietRock is a little gimmicky in my opinion, because everyone from movie theaters, to home theaters, and professional recording studios just use MDF or drywall, which is cheap, light, and dense. So you avoid paying the premium for "acoustically engineered drywall" 🙄

I have built a couple recording studios so I have some experience with it.
 
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The foam is a no-no. Not used for acoustic isolation in a sealed cavity. Simple fiberglass works much better. This is based on significant lab data and not an opinion.

Since footfall noise is involved, the solution isn't so straightforward. Have a look at an article dedicated to ceiling isolation here: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/solutions/soundproofing_ceilings/

The pre-damped drywall you mentioned earlier is great but costly and low mass. Much better in acoustical and financial performance to use standard $8 drywall and the Green damping compound you mentioned.
 
I have used quiet rock in commercial applications. It's a good product, but don't expect miracles.

Since your ceiling is structurally attached to her floor, you will still get vibrations and loud noises no matter what you do.

I would suggest you do the following:

1. Invest in quiet rock and mount it up with place holder screws to test it out. If it makes an acceptable difference in your opinion, then screw it down completely and finish it off.

if it doesn't make enough difference...
2. Open ceiling. Purchase sound dampening material. Usually a dense rubberized foam. Apply to joists to reduce vibrations. Install sound dampening insulation between joists... at the same time run any wiring for in ceiling audio/IT needs. Once that's done. Install the quiet rock you purchased from option 1 and finish as needed.

You may also consider installing some sort of texture on your ceiling to reduce reflections of noise that could be amplifying what you are hearing.

Good luck.
 
If you're going to double the weight of your ceiling by gluing something to the sheetrock, keep in mind that you probably don't have a clue what the spacing is on the nails holding the original sheetrock in place. If they skimped on nails, it's not too much of a problem - until you glue on another sheet and rediscover gravity.
 
Please pardon my brevity.

You want light fluffy insulation in a wall or ceiling cavity. Well established acoustic fact. Fiberglass, mineral wool, cellulose, polyester, cotton all perform similarly. Foams of any kind are to be avoided.

There is no reason to spend silly amounts of money on a lightweight pre-damped specialty drywall product. You can assemble a similar system in the field that is not only much heavier (very desirable) but much less expensive and wasteful.
 
I've used 'sound board' which is a black soft kind of tary 4x8 board similar to sheetrock. It works, kind of. It will deaden some of the sound but it's not 100%. I would suggest using it with some sound deading adheasive which can be expensive along with 'quite rock' and sound board. If you're tearing up the ceiling anyway it wouldn't hurt to put the sound baord and adheasive on the floor above you as well then fill the cavity with some sort of fiberglass insulation followed by more sound board and finally quiet rock.
 
How long are planning on being there?

If long time (and have money) then remove ceiling add supports for the floor to remove squeak, insulate the space, and then put the quiet rock on.

If short time (or low on money) then just blow in some insulation and live with the rest. Does not require removing the ceiling but should help and offer the best bang for the buck. That and when she moves/pass's away the next people will require carpet.
 
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If you're sensitive to noise, you should not have gotten an apartment. I'm constantly amazed by the quiet people expect to get with people living immediately above/below/beside them (or all of the above). If you want quiet, rent a townhouse or something.
 
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At the risk of being voted off the island, I would sugest the OP follow the independently tested data. The internet if full of a lot of mixed opinion and that's great, but if you want to drill down to a solution, perhaps the data gets you there quicker.

For example:

Dense foam-like material doesn't belong in a wall or ceiling cavity. There's test data on that. Dense material ON a wall are great. Not IN a wall.

Soundboard is not often used these days. The test data doesn't support using it, and there are much better ways to try and damp vibration / decouple framing.

Pre-damped, $100 a sheet drywall isn't as heavy or inexpensive as simply using standard 5/8" drywall and field application of a damping material.

Everyone's trying to help and that's great, but it's like getting advice on anything, I suppose. I've been in the building industry since 1983 and specializing in soundproofing since 1999
 
Ted White said:
:\

At the risk of being voted off the island, I would sugest the OP follow the independently tested data. The internet if full of a lot of mixed opinion and that's great, but if you want to drill down to a solution, perhaps the data gets you there quicker.

For example:

Dense foam-like material doesn't belong in a wall or ceiling cavity. There's test data on that. Dense material ON a wall are great. Not IN a wall.

Soundboard is not often used these days. The test data doesn't support using it, and there are much better ways to try and damp vibration / decouple framing.

Pre-damped, $100 a sheet drywall isn't as heavy or inexpensive as simply using standard 5/8" drywall and field application of a damping material.

Everyone's trying to help and that's great, but it's like getting advice on anything, I suppose. I've been in the building industry since 1983 and specializing in soundproofing since 1999
Click to expand...

Please elaborate on this pre-damped drywall; I'm genuinely interested as I've dealt with severe noise issues in my apartment as well.
 
Sure thing Juddog. Damped drywall is simply two sheets of standard drywall with a layer of visco-elastic damping compound in between. So a sandwich, really.

You can either pay a company to make this sandwich or make the sandwich yourself.

If you buy the sandwich pre-made, you'll pay $50 for the low-end product with very little damping material, or upwards of $100 a sheet for higher performance product.

Or you can assemble your own at the jobsite using standard drywall (same as theirs) and a readily available damping compound. This is done by installing a first layer of drywall, then the compound, then the second layer of drywall. The seams of the the first layer are staggered compared to the second layer. No leaks.

If you assemble your own, you'll have a much heavier panel, and mass is directly related to isolation. The panel will be thoroughly damped. You will also avoid seams that can leak sound. More isolation and much cheaper.

You will experience a typical 12% waste factor, so you'll be filling the dumpster with $8 a sheet scrap rather than $100 a sheet drywall.
 
That sucks man, hope you have a board that is easy on the approval on making changes to the apartment since it's a Co-Op.
 
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