Anyone want a few thousand AK-47's ?

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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L.A. Times

CLIP:

In a nation awash with hundreds of thousands of AK-47 assault rifles, the U.S.-led occupation authority is planning to buy and import 34,000 more of the ubiquitous weapons to equip a new Iraqi army.

The plan has baffled some observers, not only because U.S. forces in Iraq have already seized and stockpiled thousands of the rifles since April, but because defense analysts have strongly recommended that the new Iraqi army be equipped with more modern, U.S.-made weapons.

The AK-47, designed by Russians shortly after World War II, is manufactured almost exclusively in former Soviet Bloc countries and China. Among the possible beneficiaries of such an unlikely U.S. order: Poland, where the assault rifles are made and support for the war in Iraq has been strong.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
AK-47 will probably be more reliable in the sand than any modern US assault rifle. Plus it's cheaper. Plus Iraqis have used them for a long time. I just don't see why we need to get more of them. What happened to the ones that were already there?
 

Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
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I wouldnt say they would be more reliable. M16A2 assualt rifles are remarkably easy to clean and maintain compared to earlier US rifles.

I think buying the AK-47s is much much cheaper than equipping them with M16s from our own stockpile. Plus, the United States would have to supply spare parts, training to clean and maintain and are not easy to replace. Not to mention that the US would have to supply the ammunition. It's just more cost effective and easier to supply them with a rifle that is so readily available around the world.

Besides, I dont think the US wants their rifles to start floating around the black market in high numbers.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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I know the A2 model of the M-16 is supposed to be better than what we had in the 'Nam, but in the
report of the lost convoy that Lynch was in most of the weapons malfinctioned - jammed M-16A2's.
We lost Military Personel - AGAIN - due to a weapon that has never gained a lot of respect from the
soldier that has to carry it. There were quite a few that quit carrying their 16's and took along the
captured AK's when they had the chance back then.
Stock made from plastic would quit working if dropped - lost seal to gas chamber, but you could just
beat the hell out of anything you wanted to with the wood stock of a '47.
I'd like one of each.
 

Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
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Well, I have used the M-16 and I think it is a great weapon. I dont know the exact circumstances of the jammed weapons though.

It's a perfectly balanced weapon with a good lethal range, light weight and accurate.

I know the M16 has a bad track record when it comes to jams, but those issues have been virtually eliminated since the AR15/M16 days. Starting with the M16A1 the M16 become a reliable weapon for the most part.
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
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Originally posted by: Matt2
Well, I have used the M-16 and I think it is a great weapon. I dont know the exact circumstances of the jammed weapons though.

It's a perfectly balanced weapon with a good lethal range, light weight and accurate.

Its a perfectly good weapon if you use it in prestine conditions. Put it in rugged combat, and theres where it starts to falter. However, the point is not the choice of weapons, the point of the article is that there are thousands of AK47s sitting in seized Iraqi stockpiles and yet the USA is ordering thousands more from Poland, which happens to be a Pro-War country.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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That plan makes no sense at all. Thier should be no shortage of AK-47's in Iraq. A trained chimp can make an AK usable.
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
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I am sure the AK's in Iraq are sh!t. No armory level maintenance, no troop level maintenance. The barrel's likely resemble smoothbore muskets, stocks chipped-broken-cracked, gas tubes pitted, trigger/sear assemblies fubar, etc.

The AK is a disposable weapon and most of the on hand examples need to be disposed of.

The current variant of the 16 is no more prone to jamming than anything else. It all depends on how its taken care of. That being said, I would prefer an M-14 any day.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
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Yes, I think that POLAND will benefit greatly from selling few thousand AK-74 based rifles to Iraq
rolleye.gif


Anyhow, AK-74 is much better weapon for Iraq than M-16, even if M-16 is superior to AK...
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
That plan makes no sense at all. Thier should be no shortage of AK-47's in Iraq. A trained chimp can make an AK usable.

A chimp may want a usable weapon.....a rifleman wants a dependable and accurate weapon.

"This is my rifle....there are many like it but this one is mine......"

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
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How about this approach:

Rather than equip the brand new soldier with some used, off the street weapon, won't we show a higher level of committment to their new armed forces by providing them with new weaponry? And giving them weaponry they are already familiar with (and is cheaper)?

Which would you prefer as a new solider:

"Here is your slightly used AK-47, you'll have to scratch the name Habib off the stock and put your own. It needs some cleaning also"

or

"here is your brand spanking new in the box AK-47. Please take excellent care of this, this is your rifle <insert full metal jacket clip here>"

Lozina and tnitsuj of course could find anything negative in just about anything done by the military/government. Anything else would require rational thought.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: Matt2
Well, I have used the M-16 and I think it is a great weapon. I dont know the exact circumstances of the jammed weapons though.

It's a perfectly balanced weapon with a good lethal range, light weight and accurate.

Its a perfectly good weapon if you use it in prestine conditions. Put it in rugged combat, and theres where it starts to falter. However, the point is not the choice of weapons, the point of the article is that there are thousands of AK47s sitting in seized Iraqi stockpiles and yet the USA is ordering thousands more from Poland, which happens to be a Pro-War country.
Well, the article stated Poland is among the "possible beneficiaries". However, yes, such an outside procurement of additonal AK-47 rifles raises questions.

For example, what condition are the confiscated rifles in? Have our people on the ground even had the opportunity to TI them yet? Or maybe a large number of the captured weapons were destroyed by our people shortly after end of offensive ops. Maybe the headshed actually found it more cost-effective to procure X amount of AK-47 rifles from Poland at say, $52 each, rather than remanufacture the existing stockpile.

Initially, this sounds like a global version of old fashioned porkbarrel spending. However we really don't have all of the details regarding this procurement just yet.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: 308nato
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
That plan makes no sense at all. Thier should be no shortage of AK-47's in Iraq. A trained chimp can make an AK usable.

A chimp may want a usable weapon.....a rifleman wants a dependable and accurate weapon.

"This is my rifle....there are many like it but this one is mine......"

And US taxpayer wants a cheap weapon. ;) AK-74 is a fine rifle for that part of the world. Are they just going to order it from Poland, or will other AK manufacturers be able to compete for that contract?
 

Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
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I'm gonna agree and say that the current stockpile is probably in horrible condition.

More cost-effective to replace entire stockpile than to replace individual parts on each rifle. Not to mention the manpower and time consumption it would take.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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Yeah, at 50 a unit, it probably isn't worth the time/resources to do otherwise.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Who said $50/unit?
Maybe that's how much used ones sell on the market, but believe me, US is gonna pay a pretty penny to Poland for theirs. This is about rewarding Poland for it's good lapdog service.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
Who said $50/unit?
Maybe that's how much used ones sell on the market, but believe me, US is gonna pay a pretty penny to Poland for theirs. This is about rewarding Poland for it's good lapdog service.

That's about the going rate for a new AK in Europe. When you buy 50k+ you get a good discount. Places in Africa, you can buy a brand new AK for something like $30.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Must register:( I don't do this. Could you please post it.

I think based on your title the weapons they currently have are in horrible shape after years of bieng cut off of militarization prjects.. Could be wrong though because i don;t know but it makes sense they would.

I would like to them have Sig 550 series as well as everyone... Light at 7lbs and swiss built...Fine gun IMO bit expensive at around $4500..
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
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Zeeeeeb:

Here's the whole post: (Read parageaph 12 - New/warehoused)

In a nation awash with hundreds of thousands of AK-47 assault rifles, the U.S.-led occupation authority is planning to buy and import 34,000 more of the ubiquitous weapons to equip a new Iraqi army.

The plan has baffled some observers, not only because U.S. forces in Iraq have already seized and stockpiled thousands of the rifles since April, but because defense analysts have strongly recommended that the new Iraqi army be equipped with more modern, U.S.-made weapons.

The AK-47, designed by Russians shortly after World War II, is manufactured almost exclusively in former Soviet Bloc countries and China. Among the possible beneficiaries of such an unlikely U.S. order: Poland, where the assault rifles are made and support for the war in Iraq has been strong.

With a bidding deadline today, the Coalition Provisional Authority now running Iraq is quietly seeking the best deal on the arsenal from U.S.-licensed arms dealers, asking that they deliver the assault weapons to the Taji military base north of Baghdad by Sept. 3. The plans were spelled out on its official Web site this week.

A spokesman for the Coalition Joint Task Force, which commands the military occupation in Iraq, was unaware of the request for bids and questioned it.

"That's surprising," said Army Capt. Jeff Fitzgibbons, a task force spokesman in Baghdad. "It would seem to me odd that we're out there looking to buy more weapons for a place where we've already captured and set aside so many of them. It would raise a red flag for me, that's for sure."

But an official with the occupation authority in Baghdad, who asked not to be named, confirmed the plans and said the AK-47s would be used to equip a new Iraqi army being formed to replace the 400,000-strong military that was formally disbanded in May.

The U.S. Army and private American defense contractors, led by Los Angeles-based Northrop Grumman, have begun to train the first Iraqi army recruits in Kirkuk under a $48-million Pentagon contract, and the Taji base is the supply point for that northern Iraqi city. The new force is expected to number 12,000 at the end of this year and 40,000 in three years.

In its Internet solicitation for the 34,000 weapons and accessories, technically called a request for proposals, the occupation authority specified that it wanted to buy "brand-new, never-fired, fixed-stock AK-47 assault rifles with certified manufacture dates not earlier than 1987."

The authority wants a new shipment of the weapons from a single source "so that they're all of the same standard, and they're all new and ready to use," the official said. He declined to speculate on the cost of the weapons or the source of the funds that will be used to buy them, adding, "We're looking for a product that works, and we're looking for value."

Individual AK-47s are advertised on the Internet for several hundred dollars apiece. Although it was unclear what the per-rifle cost would be under such a large purchase, the total order would presumably exceed $1 million.

But the U.S. forces who seized control of Iraq in April have since discovered vast stockpiles of new, never-fired AK-47s, which U.S. military officials said have been deliberately warehoused for a future Iraqi army.

At one compound of eight concrete warehouses that a company of the 10th Engineer Battalion found in central Baghdad in mid-April, Times reporters watched soldiers form a human chain to fill a truck bed with AK-47s so new the soldiers' hands turned orange from the packing grease.

One officer on the scene at the time called the arms cache a "mother lode." Another said there were so many weapons he'd lost count. First Lt. Matt Miletich, who was in charge of the company, said then that the weapons would be held and guarded until a new Iraqi government and army were ready to receive them.

The following day, U.S. Marines who were securing the city of Tikrit north of Baghdad announced that they had found 100,000 AK-47s there, 80,000 of them in a hospital. And in the months that have followed, there have been almost daily reports of U.S. military units seizing quantities of AK-47s both large and small, new and used.

"We've been designating a lot of these captured weapons specifically for the new Iraqi army and police organizations we're setting up," Fitzgibbons said, although he acknowledged that many of the weapons were old.

The civil authority official, however, asserted that the makes and models of the new weapons seized have "slight differences" depending on the nation where they were made, and that the goal of the agency's AK-47 purchase is to standardize the arms.

He added that the agency decided to order AK-47s rather than another weapon made in the U.S. or another Western country not only because the Iraqi recruits are familiar with it but "the AK-47 is the easiest weapon to teach, and it's the easiest to use."

Designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov in 1947, the AK-47 is manufactured largely in former Soviet Bloc nations. It was standard issue for the Iraqi army and security services under the Saddam Hussein regime, which handed out well over a million of them to soldiers and civilians and warehoused tens of thousands more.

To some U.S. defense analysts, that is scant justification.

"Basically, they would be equipping the new and improved Iraqi military with un-American weapons. If you've decided to start all over again from the beginning, it would make sense to equip the new Iraqi military with American equipment," said John Pike, who heads the Virginia-based, nonprofit GlobalSecurity.org defense policy group.

"It raises a lot of interesting questions that will continue to be raised as they rebuild the Iraqi military .... If played right, this could be a real bonanza for American armament companies."

Pike and his group say that the purchase, presumably the first of many for the new Iraqi army, potentially has multibillion-dollar implications.

"What about tanks? How many tanks does Iraq need?" Pike asked. "Does Iraq need fighter planes? Are they going to buy Swedish fighter planes?"

A recent study by Global-Security.org on rebuilding the Iraqi military said: "It is important for the United States to monitor and supervise Iraq's military reconstruction, as the U.S. has an interest in reequipping Iraq with U.S. military equipment. The use of U.S. systems would require significant training and allow the U.S. to have continued military influence in the country long after significant U.S. units had departed.

"Likewise, if left to its own accord, Iraq would likely turn to other available systems on the open arms sales market, most likely Russian or Russian-derivative arms that the Iraqi military already has experience in using."

The coalition authority's request for the rifles does specify that its supplier have "required licenses and credentials" that include an official registration with the State Department as a "broker" of defense products and a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Class III "license for U.S. companies," which permits the manufacture or sale of fully automatic assault weapons.

Such a license permits a U.S. company to sell the weapons only to U.S. law enforcement agencies. But if the company also is registered with the State Department's Defense Trade Controls Office, it can broker the sale of those weapons from a foreign manufacturer to another foreign buyer.

Independent analysts added that, given those specifications, the coalition's winning bidder probably would be a licensed U.S. arms broker or dealer who arranges the shipment to Iraq from a former Soviet Bloc country that makes AK-47s
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,779
6,339
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Swedish fighter planes, hehe. Nothing against Saab, just seems that certain corps were salivating at the thought of re-arming Iraq with US made weaponry.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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The new Iraq will not posess a Navy, Air Force, or heavy weapons such as artillery, Air Defense Missiles, tanks, etc. Light Infantry only.

Not a lot of opportunity for big defense contracts. Nothing like Iran under the Shah.