Anyone using CAT7?

[imagoon]

Best practices are always a recommendation. Sadly in most large scale deployments even with budgets in in the ten's of millions, they can't always be implemented effectively.

I have seen perfect fiber runs at deployment only to come back a year later to see someone has balled everything up and jammed it into the copper management conduit.

Still sounds like people issues not tech issues. If you can't keep Joe "high school" Reject, out of your gear then what you describe will happen.

 

[Zargon]

I didn't say not getting your way. Most business people will listen to you if you give them a valid business reason to buy something (esp in the $200 range where they wonder why you are wasting their time.) Keeping people from screwing with the network gear by buying a cabinet that should last the life of the building or longer is often looked at as a brain dead "yes." To many "IT" people ask and get a no because they ask like this:

I want this for $200.
Why?
Uh because.
"no."

Then again maybe I have never had the luck to work at a truly crappy environment.

Spidey's comment is one good example of a real business need: "$200 will prevent Lucy in accounting from blinding herself and being on workmen's comp for a few decades."

I guess you just assume I am a basement dweller eh? 😛

the problem is when it already was there when you come in and the defense is 'money is tight and its been like that for 6 years without a problem, so why spend money to fix a problem we apparantly dont have'

mostly the issues I did encounter was when consulting for small businesses, where they want tangible ROI on every penny spent and dont even see backups as 'cost effective'

I don't think you have seen much then. Good luck with a cabinet in a 4x6 pulpit that the guy is already jammed inside. We had enough room for only a 8 port 2960 with magnet mounts to the steel wall. Also in manufacturing you can't always run cables effectively from the 'wall' esp if the warehouse has 50+ foot ceilings and little cable management. We try to get small NEMA enclosures at least, but a lot of times it's got to be just installed on the CNC machine or the like and the cabling dressed at best as possible.

man manfucaturing sucks. I help a friend sometimes who owns a machine shop, and some of them are running on windows 3.1 still. barely enclosed from the machining environment. its a nightmare. I have paid hundreds of dollars on ebay for pentium 1 and dx gear to keep half million dollar machines running

 

[alkemyst]

Still sounds like people issues not tech issues. If you can't keep Joe "high school" Reject, out of your gear then what you describe will happen.

This was done in a 20 million dollar data center by 'server' guys.

What you learned from your books is very different than what happens in real life.

Ultimately as I have stated in a perfect world everyone would be experts at cabling and know how to properly handle the fiber they encounter.

You are arguing ignorantly.

In the school side of things, much of the time a $200-500 cabinet in every classroom is out of their budgets, even with E-Rate money at 10 to 20 cents on the dollar. We are forced to install into storage closets 3750 POE switches and rely on the teacher keeping them locked.

 

[imagoon]

I don't think you have seen much then. Good luck with a cabinet in a 4x6 pulpit that the guy is already jammed inside. We had enough room for only a 8 port 2960 with magnet mounts to the steel wall. Also in manufacturing you can't always run cables effectively from the 'wall' esp if the warehouse has 50+ foot ceilings and little cable management. We try to get small NEMA enclosures at least, but a lot of times it's got to be just installed on the CNC machine or the like and the cabling dressed at best as possible.

Never really experienced that, even when installing and maintaining asphalt plant control systems. Granted must of out stuff went in to weatherproof, controlled environment boxes when outdoors and locked 8-16U cabinets when indoors. Also 50ft ceilings never seemed to be a problem. That is what scissorlifts and ceiling rings were for.

 

[imagoon]

This was done in a 20 million dollar data center by 'server' guys.

What you learned from your books is very different than what happens in real life.

Ultimately as I have stated in a perfect world everyone would be experts at cabling and know how to properly handle the fiber they encounter.

You are arguing ignorantly.

In the school side of things, much of the time a $200-500 cabinet in every classroom is out of their budgets, even with E-Rate money at 10 to 20 cents on the dollar. We are forced to install into storage closets 3750 POE switches and rely on the teacher keeping them locked.

I am hardly in school or reading books. I am also learning the hard way why people never want to argue with you. You break out the holier than thou attitude and insults.

It sounds more like you are taking the cheap projects all the time. Every school refit I have been involved with had proper locked cabinets or IDFs. Mostly because the kids will walk off with gear even when it is bolted down.

 

[alkemyst]

I am hardly in school or reading books. I am also learning the hard way why people never want to argue with you. You break out the holier than thou attitude and insults.

It sounds more like you are taking the cheap projects all the time. Every school refit I have been involved with had proper locked cabinets or IDFs. Mostly because the kids will walk off with gear even when it is bolted down.

I work for one of the Top 3 Cisco partners in the country. We have more rewards than most companies. We cleaned up this year, you realize those awards just came out.

Like I said, it's great if your clients have the budgets. As I said above the gear was kept in locked closets.

Most of 2011 I was on a global network refresh for one of the largest steel manufacturers in the world. Most sites don't have an "IT" guy even. Some of the fun stuff was finding their switches sealed into a wall.

Do the kids also walk off with the computers and monitors at your schools?

Best practices are great when the customer pays for them.

Like I said you are just arguing. Most of us in this thread know a locked cabinet is ideal.

Also if you aren't reading, you are hardly up to speed.

 

[alkemyst]

Never really experienced that, even when installing and maintaining asphalt plant control systems. Granted must of out stuff went in to weatherproof, controlled environment boxes when outdoors and locked 8-16U cabinets when indoors. Also 50ft ceilings never seemed to be a problem. That is what scissorlifts and ceiling rings were for.

Great if you can get a scissorlift into the area and if they are willing to pay for it.

Why the heck are you always using 8-16U cabinets though?!?!

 

[ScottMac]

Folks, Please keep the stone throwing to a minimum.

There are exceptions to all the rules (guidelines, networking laws, rules of thumb, etc.). Implementing the exceptions tends to not be a good idea, but sometimes "ya gotta do, what ya gotta do" (or pay for it from your own pocket, or walk away ...).

As a worst case, agree to disagree, or maybe open another thread on the specific point of philosophy and discuss it like adults (assuming that you are an adult ...).

There's lots for the novice network d00ds (and even some old timers) to learn here, but reading a thread that degrades into a "pissing match" is a drag.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

Thanks

Scott
Networking Moderator
(and old fart networker from the Good Ol' Days)

 

[imagoon]

I guess you just assume I am a basement dweller eh? 😛

the problem is when it already was there when you come in and the defense is 'money is tight and its been like that for 6 years without a problem, so why spend money to fix a problem we apparantly dont have'

mostly the issues I did encounter was when consulting for small businesses, where they want tangible ROI on every penny spent and dont even see backups as 'cost effective'

Nah I don't consider you a basement dweller. I am probably a bit jaded since I got used to working to the fortune 500 and give a solid wtf to the "HDD swappers" [for the backups you mentioned].

I tend to be one of those people that "gets tired" of seeing people reap what they sow and then myself getting blamed for it so I tended to book out of that. Continuing the HDD swapper theme, ie: I hated being the person blamed because "the backup failed" because I was contracted there once a month for a couple of years and the owner insisted on swapping out weekly USB drives, and he never bothered to check for 6 months that the backups were never actually completed. Note that we were not paid to babysit the backups. Granted my consulting experience at that level was not with a good company. It was one those: "Goon you should caught that backup issue." when 2 months ago that same boss was complaining about "excessive hours."

Another random story... I fought tooth and nail for a proper lightning box for an AP antenna mounted on the roof of an asphalt plant. They said I was being over cautious and eventually it was installed that way. 3 Months later the tower was struck by lightning. Fun times. Fried breaker panels and the like. Lots of magic smoke let out of all the gear attached to the network.

It is probably why I am so anal about those stupid mod (rj45) connectors on solid core cables also...

Anyway it is not my intention to come off as a jackass.

ScottMac: No problem, anti-stone system enabled.

 

[alkemyst]

if you want to harden roof top AP's isolating them with fiber is one of the best ways. Nothing is going to help on a direct lightening strike.

 

[imagoon]

if you want to harden roof top AP's isolating them with fiber is one of the best ways. Nothing is going to help on a direct lightening strike.

It was a metal tower a bit away from the building. The insisted on copper because "fiber is to expensive." They also didn't isolate the power which I suspect was the main issue, also "to expensive." They more or less dragged a 15 amp breaker feed, hot and neutral up a metal pipe on the tower. It violated several local codes which require those arch breakers on the power feeds for towers like those.

It would have been a dice toss if stuff in the building would have survived if properly protected since it was pretty close. However it was not atypical in the fields around the plant.

 

[alkemyst]

just need a small loop of fiber usually to a transceiver. You want to make sure the transceiver power is not on the same circuit the AP is on.

easy peasy.

 

[Zargon]

in the [H] networking thread some jackass was reading me the riot act over grounding switches in my rack(and patch panels etc) all according to motorola R56 grounding spec

building has been hit by lightning numerous times, thanks to the 285 ft tower.

plus it would violate the service agreement with motorola

but once we went fiber the tertiary damage is much much less