Anyone tried Conductive Ink Pen/Defroster Repair Kit as thermal compound?

flood

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
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Just had a thought about it since I was using a defroster repair kit to do the BSEL mod on my chip. It starts as liquid, contains mostly silver or copper, and dries in a short amount of time. I might try it on some old hardware I have spare and see how the temps do compared to some commercial stuff.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
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Well, let's think about it a moment... lots of enthusiasts feel that thermal compound "goes to crap" after it dries up.
 

Bartman39

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Jul 4, 2000
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What if you could keep it soft or liquid till you get the HS/fan or H2O kit attached so it would basicly bond the two...?

I wonder would Mercury work...? If you thick`nd it to a paste like AS5 so it would stay in place... Its a heavy metal if memory serves...? Great conductor too...


Wanted to ask this awhile back but had forgot it...
 

Sp12

Senior member
Jun 12, 2010
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I would say any risks involved in the use/handling of mercury far outweigh any thermal abilities it has.
 

flood

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
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What if you could keep it soft or liquid till you get the HS/fan or H2O kit attached so it would basicly bond the two...?

That's exactly what I was thinking. It dries out over the course of 2-3min, so you could apply it to the CPU while it was installed in the socket and then install the heatsink.

Also, mercury = noes.
 

Bartman39

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Are you kidding...? We handled Mercury in science class several times... Of course we took care in how it was done but its not like nuke material just dont cook it the vapors are what give you the webie/gebies... Also if it were in a paste as I suggested it would much easier to handle as well... But hey would`nt it be worth a try...? Do doubt anyone would market the product but do you realize when you smell gasoline what your taking into your system, hell smoke a cig (just not at the same time)...? Give that a bit of thought... ;)

Alot of things we do on a daily basis is far worse for you than you think...
 

FishAk

Senior member
Jun 13, 2010
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In some countries, mercury is still ingested as a medicinal treatment. I don't remember what for. We used to play with it all the time when we were kids.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
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its all a matter of cost over efficiency. if it weren't expensive, we'd all be using gold and diamond compounds for TIMs.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
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In some countries, mercury is still ingested as a medicinal treatment. I don't remember what for. We used to play with it all the time when we were kids.

yes, the us puts it in vaccines. and causes neurological problems in children.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
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Honestly we are close to hitting to limits of TIM. Having a 100% perfect thermal conductor won't even decrease the temperature of a low power device such as our 300W overclocked CPUs by 1 degree.

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taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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yes, the us puts it in vaccines. and causes neurological problems in children.

1. No, we put a mercury COMPOUND in vaccines (as a preservative), not pure mercury... Chemistry does not work the way you think it does.
H2O is water, H2O2 is poison (which you have a near perfect enzyme called Catalase to breakdown) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalase
CO2 is harmless to humans, CO is deadly.

2. A law firm paid 400K $ to a researcher to publish fake results showing it causing autism. He has since admitted that the results were fake, but claims it was not due to a payoff but in order to boost his reputation; that particular lawfirm paid him for unrelated things, and that this lawfirm used the results to win numerous class action lawsuits is incidental. Numerous researchers around the world tried to replicate his results and every single one of them found the vaccines to be harmless. All the while the mercury compound preservative in vaccines has been banned world wide, resulting in more expensive vaccines with shorter shelf life (which results in people dying from lack of vaccinations).

3. Autism has since been found to be caused by a specific brain defect which has nothing to do with mercury, it is, however, genetic. And the EXACT genes causing it have been identified.

4. Mercury was/is ingested as a "immortality pill" in primitive societies which associate a supernatural attribute to it being a liquid metal at room temperature. Pure mercury will mostly just go in one end and come out the other... in sufficient quantity it will cause severe intestinal irritation (and bleeding) which could kill you though. it needs to be bound in certain digestible compounds to be readily absorbed and cause neurological damage (such as the mercury found in some fish; NOT the mercury found in vaccines). When it IS absorbed, it goes to your nerves, it induces mental instability... causing people to develop schizophrenia (no, not multiple personality disorder), paranoia, and other forms of insanity before finally killing them.

5. Ironically, invalids are still campaigning for parents not to vaccinate their children because "vaccines cause autism" (wrong) even in countries where the mercury based preservatives have been banned for years (which include the USA, China, Canada, Australia, all of europe, etc)...

Check out the MSDS for the effects of PURE mercury: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m1599.htm
Inhalation:
Mercury vapor is highly toxic via this route. Causes severe respiratory tract damage. Symptoms include sore throat, coughing, pain, tightness in chest, breathing difficulties, shortness of breath, headache, muscle weakness, anorexia, gastrointestinal disturbance, ringing in the ear, liver changes, fever, bronchitis and pneumonitis. Can be absorbed through inhalation with symptoms similar to ingestion.
Ingestion:
May cause burning of the mouth and pharynx, abdominal pain, vomiting, corrosive ulceration, bloody diarrhea. May be followed by a rapid and weak pulse, shallow breathing, paleness, exhaustion, tremors and collapse. Delayed death may occur from renal failure. Gastrointenstinal uptake of mercury is less than 5% but its ability to penetrate tissues presents some hazard. Initial symptoms may be thirst, possible abdominal discomfort.
Skin Contact:
Causes irritaton and burns to skin. Symptoms include redness and pain. May cause skin allergy and sensitization. Can be absorbed through the skin with symptoms to parallel ingestion.
Eye Contact:
Causes irritation and burns to eyes. Symptoms include redness, pain, blurred vision; may cause serious and permanent eye damage.
Chronic Exposure:
Chronic exposure through any route can produce central nervous system damage. May cause muscle tremors, personality and behavior changes, memory loss, metallic taste, loosening of the teeth, digestive disorders, skin rashes, brain damage and kidney damage. Can cause skin allergies and accumulate in the body. Repeated skin contact can cause the skin to turn gray in color. A suspected reproductive hazard; may damage the developing fetus and decrease fertility in males and females.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with nervous disorders, or impaired kidney or respiratory function, or a history of allergies or a known sensitization to mercury may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It dries out over the course of 2-3min, so you could apply it to the CPU while it was installed in the socket and then install the heatsink.

thats not a good idea... it will permanently bond that heat-sink and CPU, which is a problem down the line.
If you want to get perfect contact you need to polish it (and make sure its straight)... look up CPU / HSF lapping... if followed carefully you get near perfect heat transference, much better than any TIM... a perfectly lapped CPU/heatsink does not require ANY TIM and might actually get lower performance once TIM is added.

I would say any risks involved in the use/handling of mercury far outweigh any thermal abilities it has.

the risks are far bigger in handling diamond dust... so if you are tempted to make your own diamond TIM (for greater diamond density, for much greater proven performance than off the shelf diamond TIM)... DO NOT DO IT!

Well, let's think about it a moment... lots of enthusiasts feel that thermal compound "goes to crap" after it dries up.

interestingly, I said that a couple of time... people called me out on it asking for a link... not only was I unable to provide one, I was unable to remember the source for said claim except "some guys here on the forums"...
I sent a query to the arctic silver tech support and they replied that no, you do NOT need to reapply the TIM occasionally... as long as you do not remove the CPU (if you do remove it, you need to remove all TIM and apply a fresh coat)
 
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peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
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In some countries, mercury is still ingested as a medicinal treatment. I don't remember what for. We used to play with it all the time when we were kids.

Probably the Chinese...They have the wackiest ideas of what can be healthy. Bear Gall bladder cures not being able to get a woody according to Chinese medicine. Tiger parts also have medicinal value according to traditional Chinese medicine. All bullshit and is a huge reason why so many animal species are almost extinct now [Tigers especially]. Mercury is another one. I read a book on China's first Emperor and apparently he believed in the healing power of Mercury so much that he injested it daily, which turned him bat shit crazy and eventually killed him. Also his tomb is literally flowing with it.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
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If you want to get perfect contact you need to polish it (and make sure its straight)... look up CPU / HSF lapping... if followed carefully you get near perfect heat transference, much better than any TIM... a perfectly lapped CPU/heatsink does not require ANY TIM and might actually get lower performance once TIM is added.
High performance heatsinks/waterblocks are actually bowed to provide better heat transfer theoretically. Rubycon/Dawn (namechange wtf?) said this a while back:
RubyDawn said:
However if lapped don't expect to see as good of a result as the original. Now if you happen to have a CPU with a slightly different IHS it is indeed possible that temps could actually improve.

I've had several TRUE, a Venomous-X, and a Megahalem professionally faced (milled) down to a flatness range of 1/10000" verified with a CMM inspection machine. :eek: On my chips all were no better - often a degree or two WORSE than stock (un milled) products! The Venomous-X was about four degrees hotter!
If she is reading this thread, I'm interested in if the CPU was lapped and and if it was, if she has any results on the use of not using TIM. I however do not believe the results will be better than Indigo Xtreme.


its all a matter of cost over efficiency. if it weren't expensive, we'd all be using gold and diamond compounds for TIMs.
Both silver and copper have a higher thermal conductivity than gold.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
High performance heatsinks/waterblocks are actually bowed to provide better heat transfer theoretically. Rubycon/Dawn (namechange wtf?) said this a while back:

If she is reading this thread, I'm interested in if the CPU was lapped and and if it was, if she has any results on the use of not using TIM. I however do not believe the results will be better than Indigo Xtreme.

interesting, this goes against what I have read... but what I have read could very well be false (ex: the need to replace TIM every 2 years or so... according to arctic silver it is wrong, only replace it when you remove the HSF for any reason).
I would definitely like to hear more about curved vs flat
 
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htwingnut

Member
Jun 11, 2008
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Doesn't matter if its curved or flat, as long as the surface is as smooth as possible down to the microscopic level, and heatsink and heatspreader are as parallel as possible.
 

sonnygdude

Member
Jun 14, 2008
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interesting, this goes against what I have read... but what I have read could very well be false (ex: the need to replace TIM every 2 years or so... according to arctic silver it is wrong, only replace it when you remove the HSF for any reason).
I would definitely like to hear more about curved vs flat

Yowza, this piqued my curiosity as well... Physics would suggest that this is impossible, unless the heatsink and the chip heat spreader were rather coincidentally curved/bowed to the exact same profile before the heatsink was machined.

I have one question about the heatsink being milled to a flatness of .1 mil - that may be flatness, but what was the surface finish? Flatness to 1/10000 of an inch is one thing, but it's hard to get milled surfaces really smooth (smoother than 32RMS microinches usually takes special care). Flatness is one parameter for heat transfer, but it's overwhelmed by smoothness. Even though two metal surfaces appear smooth, they still meet on their asperities. The effective heat transfer area and the contact resistance is lowered when the asperities are smaller (smooth surfaces).
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Yowza, this piqued my curiosity as well... Physics would suggest that this is impossible, unless the heatsink and the chip heat spreader were rather coincidentally curved/bowed to the exact same profile before the heatsink was machined.

I have one question about the heatsink being milled to a flatness of .1 mil - that may be flatness, but what was the surface finish? Flatness to 1/10000 of an inch is one thing, but it's hard to get milled surfaces really smooth (smoother than 32RMS microinches usually takes special care). Flatness is one parameter for heat transfer, but it's overwhelmed by smoothness. Even though two metal surfaces appear smooth, they still meet on their asperities. The effective heat transfer area and the contact resistance is lowered when the asperities are smaller (smooth surfaces).

well... smooth IS flat, just in the local (and microscopic) level.
While physics doesn't say things, my knowledge of physics indicates that you are right. This is why I wanted to know more, it sounds like it could be a fascinating phenomenon I am not aware of.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,815
2
81
Are you kidding...? We handled Mercury in science class several times... Of course we took care in how it was done but its not like nuke material just dont cook it the vapors are what give you the webie/gebies... Also if it were in a paste as I suggested it would much easier to handle as well... But hey would`nt it be worth a try...? Do doubt anyone would market the product but do you realize when you smell gasoline what your taking into your system, hell smoke a cig (just not at the same time)...? Give that a bit of thought... ;)

Alot of things we do on a daily basis is far worse for you than you think...

No.

It isn't going to work. Don't bother.


1) The mercury is liquid has the potential to move and short the CPU/mobo. Even if you mount it horizontally, a slight knock could do it. Mounted vertically gravity will always win...

2) Even if it didn't short out the CPU it will vapourise, the underside of the CPU gets hot too! The socket isn't airtight. Even if it were you would potentially run into the problem of the mercury condensing in the wrong place and shorting something (see 1)

3) As taltamir suggested organomercury (mercury carbon compounds) != elemental mercury

Organomercury- Hell even then dimethylmercury is really toxic.

Merbromin was banned in 1998 by the FDA.

In summary don't do it. The silver pens are perfectly adequate for BSEL mods :thumbsup:
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,815
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High performance heatsinks/waterblocks are actually bowed to provide better heat transfer theoretically. Rubycon/Dawn (namechange wtf?) said this a while back:

If she is reading this thread, I'm interested in if the CPU was lapped and and if it was, if she has any results on the use of not using TIM. I however do not believe the results will be better than Indigo Xtreme.



Both silver and copper have a higher thermal conductivity than gold.

The answer is in the quote...

Originally Posted by RubyDawn
Now if you happen to have a CPU with a slightly different IHS it is indeed possible that temps could actually improve.

Remember that for a while a lot of intel CPUs had bowed IHS.

There could also be another couple of factors at play - the curve of the heat sink could increase the force on the centre of the chip, displacing some (excess) TIM, and increasing the pressure where it will help most with thermal transfer.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
There could also be another couple of factors at play - the curve of the heat sink could increase the force on the centre of the chip, displacing some (excess) TIM, and increasing the pressure where it will help most with thermal transfer.

that a reasonable explanation. thank you.
 

flood

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
4,213
0
76
Well, I tried it out. Temperatures are exactly the same as with Arctic Silver 2. I haven't tried to pull the heatsink off the chip, but from what I've seen of the dried copper compound, its still soft and scrapes away easily.