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Anyone noticing lowball job offers in I.T.?

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Originally posted by: BoberFett
An asset, yes. A commodity, hardly. That fancy ERP system that improves efficiency, minimizes waste, and helps ensure quality? If that's a commodity then tear it out tomorrow and replace it with something else. See how that goes.
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And? I deal with these types of issues on a daily basis. My entire professional life hinges on being able to sell these things and the services that relate to them.

But my point isn't that you're wrong. I agree with you. I'm just saying that the attitude you express is NOT the attitude held by everyone else. And this is precisely my point: IT people have this "They should know how valuable I am and how crucial these systems are" when the business leaders much of the time don't even have ERP systems show up as a blip on their corporate radar.

You're thinking about a chess game in terms of the actions of a single piece instead of thinking about it as a strategic orchestration for the entire game; when thought in the latter context, the individual movement of things like ERP, CRM, etc. just don't carry the weight that IT people seem to think they should.

 
Welcome to a shitty economy. I had a nuclear engineer from Zion apply to an entry level Process Analyst position. Hourly rates are plunging everywhere.
 
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: BoberFett
An asset, yes. A commodity, hardly. That fancy ERP system that improves efficiency, minimizes waste, and helps ensure quality? If that's a commodity then tear it out tomorrow and replace it with something else. See how that goes.
Click to expand...

And? I deal with these types of issues on a daily basis. My entire professional life hinges on being able to sell these things and the services that relate to them.

But my point isn't that you're wrong. I agree with you. I'm just saying that the attitude you express is NOT the attitude held by everyone else. And this is precisely my point: IT people have this "They should know how valuable I am and how crucial these systems are" when the business leaders much of the time don't even have ERP systems show up as a blip on their corporate radar.

You're thinking about a chess game in terms of the actions of a single piece instead of thinking about it as a strategic orchestration for the entire game; when thought in the latter context, the individual movement of things like ERP, CRM, etc. just don't carry the weight that IT people seem to think they should.
Click to expand...

I've found that most people don't notice the work that goes behind the scenes to keep IT systems running until something goes wrong. Then you'll get tons of attention... most of it negative.

Face it... if you're looking to get noticed by upper management for your hard work, you're probably better off working in sales where you're actually bringing in new customers and revenue.
 
Originally posted by: Evadman
Welcome to a shitty economy. I had a nuclear engineer from Zion apply to an entry level Process Analyst position. Hourly rates are plunging everywhere.
Click to expand...

Guess he's never heard of the Navy's nuke sub program, you can be making $90k/year within 3 years plus a $20k bonus. Just requires 5 years of your life and to endure a few 6 month sausage-fests.
 
Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: BoberFett
An asset, yes. A commodity, hardly. That fancy ERP system that improves efficiency, minimizes waste, and helps ensure quality? If that's a commodity then tear it out tomorrow and replace it with something else. See how that goes.
Click to expand...

And? I deal with these types of issues on a daily basis. My entire professional life hinges on being able to sell these things and the services that relate to them.

But my point isn't that you're wrong. I agree with you. I'm just saying that the attitude you express is NOT the attitude held by everyone else. And this is precisely my point: IT people have this "They should know how valuable I am and how crucial these systems are" when the business leaders much of the time don't even have ERP systems show up as a blip on their corporate radar.

You're thinking about a chess game in terms of the actions of a single piece instead of thinking about it as a strategic orchestration for the entire game; when thought in the latter context, the individual movement of things like ERP, CRM, etc. just don't carry the weight that IT people seem to think they should.
Click to expand...

I've found that most people don't notice the work that goes behind the scenes to keep IT systems running until something goes wrong. Then you'll get tons of attention... most of it negative.

Face it... if you're looking to get noticed by upper management for your hard work, you're probably better off working in sales where you're actually bringing in new customers and revenue.
Click to expand...


Exactly - they don't know that you have a web server, an exchange server, apps servers etc - all they know is the email works the interenet works and they have access to their mapped drives. How much work that goes in to maintaining and upgrading the servers is never really seen.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
...competent IT support staff...
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What is this thing you speak of? 😉

In my experience, such a staff is very rare, unfortunately. When you do find good workers, they inevitably leave for greener pastures.
 
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: BoberFett
An asset, yes. A commodity, hardly. That fancy ERP system that improves efficiency, minimizes waste, and helps ensure quality? If that's a commodity then tear it out tomorrow and replace it with something else. See how that goes.
Click to expand...

And? I deal with these types of issues on a daily basis. My entire professional life hinges on being able to sell these things and the services that relate to them.

But my point isn't that you're wrong. I agree with you. I'm just saying that the attitude you express is NOT the attitude held by everyone else. And this is precisely my point: IT people have this "They should know how valuable I am and how crucial these systems are" when the business leaders much of the time don't even have ERP systems show up as a blip on their corporate radar.

You're thinking about a chess game in terms of the actions of a single piece instead of thinking about it as a strategic orchestration for the entire game; when thought in the latter context, the individual movement of things like ERP, CRM, etc. just don't carry the weight that IT people seem to think they should.
Click to expand...

You're 100% correct, and it's a problem that will sort itself out over time. Companies who think IT is a millstone around the neck of profitability will scale down IT to the bare minimum. That may work for a while, but the thing about IT is that you never notice them until something goes wrong. IT may be overly egotistical, but it's myopic of the rest of the business to downplay IT's importance. There has to be a middle ground, and I think truly successful companies are the ones that find it.
 
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
I had a network engineer (Cisco certs, 7+years experience supporting WANs) apply for a $17/hour help desk job.


That's why.
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17/hr > sitting on ass all day...
 
An Engineering friend of mine who only two years ago had multiple companies bidding for his services, now is unemployed and without a contract for 4 months now.
 
I'm in 'training' for a help desk position that doesn't seem too hard, and I find $17/hr is a pretty good salary compared to other $10-12/hr call center jobs that are more work. What I was surprised by though is the amount of people that were hired here that have many years of experience at higher paying jobs, diplomas certifications and more. People that could easily make between $20 up to $40/hour, at a $17/hr help desk job. Everyone cites the economy as the reason, and I suppose it is true that many companies are downsizing.

It depends heavily on the cost of living though, $17/hour where it costs $2000/month to rent a small apartment would be shit, but if your part of rent is only $150/month then $17/hour is not so bad.

I noticed lowball offers in the IT field way before anyone was talking about recession though, so I'm not convinced that it's the sole cause. I originally wanted to go into computer science till I discovered what programming was all about, and that I hated it. I knew someone that did go through with the CS program and he couldn't even find a job after getting his diploma, this was several years ago.

Just goes to show that you have to adapt to what's going on in the world and be aware of where the demand is.
 
IS/IT has always had those lowballs. Everyone knows a 12 year old that can build Google overnight.

I have seen jobs looking for CCIEs and EE degrees at $20/hr or less. I have been offered $12.50/hr flat (no benefits) for a job that I'd get at least $25/hr for with full benefits quite easily.

The main problem we have is not really the recession, but adult kids out there living at home sometimes with all their expenses covered willing to work for less and less each day.

$15/hr is a lot of money when your parents are covering your school loans, car note/insurance, giving you food and shelter, etc.

It's sad. It's one of the reasons I have discussed trying to pass laws were property taxes are not only based on property value, but number of adults living under the roof. I am for giving a tax break to those with less people in one residence rather than have someone pay more in taxes simply because of house-value. They both are paying taxes to use the same roads, schools, etc...yet the dude with a $100k home and 10 guys living in it is impacting the resources available far more than the elderly guy that lives in a $1MM manse and only goes out for a sunday drive once in a while.
 
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
I had a network engineer (Cisco certs, 7+years experience supporting WANs) apply for a $17/hour help desk job.


That's why.
Click to expand...

yep. i got laid off from my last job, which isn't anything high up by any means but i like to think i worked my way above call centers. i'm now working in a call center. there were guys in my class from much higher positions than i had working here now as well.

the economy is really in the shitter. most IT jobs i'm looking at in this area are contracts through recruiters. one of my training class members got hired at another place for $1 an hour less than here, but it's a permanent position and he's getting vacation and other benefits. I get none of that here. He's trying to get me in over there as well. i hope it happens soon.
 
I'm currently hiring for my team and I make a point to try to pay people a good wage (within my budget) as I don't want people leaving right away. If you are a solid (think Senior level) C# / ASP.Net developer with at least one year of Microsoft Dynamics CRM experience, live in the Phoenix area and are looking for a job, send me a PM.
 
Originally posted by: sygyzy
alkemyst - Good point about the adult kids. Adult kids are the new Indians. Think about that.
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I understand it totally. I am dealing with it a lot in S. Florida. You have these dudes fresh out of college with Comp Sci, EE, etc degrees that never had to work anywhere else except the 'club' sometimes during the summer to pick up free golf / tennis.

They have no business ethics and nothing on the line should they simply elect no longer to stay employed.

I have posted about this here. It's the typical 27-28 year old still living at home that's been talking about saving for a house for the last 5 years yet only has game consoles, a new car every year and all the latest fashions.
 
LOL at the outrage here. Supply and demand fellas. More asses and fewer seats drives down the price of labor.

Companies are just reacting to it the same as you do when shopping for your necessities. They're looking for the lowest price.

What alkemyst posted above factors in greatly too. These adult-children are driving down the pay scale.
 
I'm not actively looking at the moment, but I've noticed there's quite a big range of salaries listed for the job postings in my area(Charlotte,NC). For example, I've seen a number of similar postings for .Net developer positions requiring 5 or 6 years of experience. Some are listed as low as 60k, while I've seen others offering 90k. I guess it just depends on the company that is looking to hire. Some of them are probably on a tight budget and trying to get by with paying as low as they can, while others are fairly healthy and looking to hire someone who won't leave as soon as a better opportunity presents itself.
 
Originally posted by: boomerang
LOL at the outrage here. Supply and demand fellas. More asses and fewer seats drives down the price of labor.

Companies are just reacting to it the same as you do when shopping for your necessities. They're looking for the lowest price.

What alkemyst posted above factors in greatly too. These adult-children are driving down the pay scale.
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Pretty much yep. Nailed it. All the old people are unhappy because there is young generations that is willing to do IT for less. They got a little too fat and happy. I mean come on IT is really not as hard as it seems once you sit down and look at it. It just looks complicated to the general public. The more the general public figures this out the more unhappy older IT people are going to get. I wonder if someday IT work will be viewed as like a maid or cleaning service because it will become so mainstream and second nature to everyone....

As for the outsourcing all you had to do was look at what laws the democrats voted into force over the past 16 years and you would have seen that storm coming a long long time ago. Now we reap what we sow and the average Joe is sitting there going WHAT HAPPENED?!
 
Originally posted by: MrWizzard

Pretty much yep. Nailed it. All the old people are unhappy because there is young generations that is willing to do IT for less. They got a little too fat and happy. I mean come on IT is really not as hard as it seems once you sit down and look at it. It just looks complicated to the general public. The more the general public figures this out the more unhappy older IT people are going to get. I wonder if someday IT work will be viewed as like a maid or cleaning service because it will become so mainstream and second nature to everyone....
Click to expand...

There's way more to "IT" than fixing spyware and swaping out harddrives. Knowing the various domino effects of changes in an enterprise environment is no walk in the park.

The field service and help desk sort of jobs are being reduced, but there are still (and will continue to be) many positions out there for intelligent people who have a very good grasp on both business and technical impacts of what IT service lines provide to an organization.

 
Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: MrWizzard

Pretty much yep. Nailed it. All the old people are unhappy because there is young generations that is willing to do IT for less. They got a little too fat and happy. I mean come on IT is really not as hard as it seems once you sit down and look at it. It just looks complicated to the general public. The more the general public figures this out the more unhappy older IT people are going to get. I wonder if someday IT work will be viewed as like a maid or cleaning service because it will become so mainstream and second nature to everyone....
Click to expand...

There's way more to "IT" than fixing spyware and swaping out harddrives. Knowing the various domino effects of changes in an enterprise environment is no walk in the park.

The field service and help desk sort of jobs are being reduced, but there are still (and will continue to be) many positions out there for intelligent people who have a very good grasp on both business and technical impacts of what IT service lines provide to an organization.
Click to expand...

We can only hope....back in the day when a computer that only added and subtracted and took up a whole building there were lots of IT guys to maintain it. Maybe in 20 years the true IT guys will be down to a very select few as things will be so automated and propagate and work themselves out.
 
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