Anyone know anything about water heaters?

[Scarpozzi]

Rinnai tankless.

QFT. I went from electric to gas. I put one of these in and am saving $30/month on my electric bill. My gas bill jumped $6-8/month for a family of 4. (2 baths a night, 3-4 showers a day, nightly dishwasher)

Family of 4, I went with the 8 gpm condensing inside unit....Rinnai RC80i.

Best place to buy is from ebay or other sellers who can get them wholesale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rinnai-RC80...989?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c45ac5465

I found it online for under $800 after applying a coupon and bought a $60 vent kit for it....poked a hole in the wall, ran my gas lines/water lines. It's worked great. Just be sure to put a whole house water filter on the intake to prolong the life of your water heater. With the $300 tax credit, it will likely pay for itself in energy savings....

My last 2 water heaters have stopped working because of leaks developing in the tanks.

PM me if you want to know anything. I did the install myself.

 

[slag]

They sell flexible yellow gas conduit. He would just use a "converting coupling" to go from the iron pipe to the flexible line. As long as he uses pipe dope compound (for gas) he should be fine.

Something like this guy did during a stove instillation.

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?p=832608

Some places require rigid black pipe to the water heater while others allow flexible pipe. As always, check with your city code.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I'm confused about by the phrase "buy out my gas one"... Does that mean the company that installs the gas tank wants to charge more to install than the tank costs? Isn't that a given? Also if you're setup for a gas one, installing an electric one is not a simple drop in at all. Also the only way an electric one can make sense potentially is if it's a heatpump water heater, a resistive heater would never be more efficient, less expensive than a gas one. I'm confused about your situation however, what does your water heater have to do with your rental fees?

It's a rented heater. To buy it out aka stop paying, they want a ludicrus price, I think it's like 600 bucks, if more. It's an old unit that has a chimney, it's not even a high efficiency one, half the heat generated is going outside. I could cook a steak well done if I wrapped it around the exhaust and went to take a shower. If I was to remove it, I tell them to come pick it up, and that waves the buy out fee, though I still have to pay like 50 bucks or w/e for them to pick it up and cancel the service. They'll find a way to get you no matter what.

By doing that I would save myself about 20 bucks per month in rental as instead of renting I would own. House came with it as a rental so I just always left it that way. I'd just have to figure out if it would cost more to run an electric than what I pay for renting right now + consideration for how inefficient the current one is. Electric is a DIY job while gas, not so much. Though I can't base my decision on just that, I'd have to look at operating cost.

I'd have to sit down and figure out watts vs cubic metre of gas needed to generate the same amount of "watts" of heat. (measured in therms I think). Our natural gas sky rocketed in spring. Went from paying a $95/mo bill in winter to paying $160/mo in summer. Not looking forward to this winter. Idealy, at some point I want to look into options for generating my own power such as solar or wind.

 

[tortillasoup]

Well it's actually really easy to do a cost comparison...

How much do you pay per therm of natural gas?
How much do you pay per KWH of electricity?
How long do you expect to live in this residence?

Here are two water heaters, one of which I actually own.
http://www.sears.com/ge-geospring-50...irectType=SRDT
http://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-water-heaters/details/2184476
First one is the GE GEO Spring Heatpump (ELECTRIC) water heater, only $1000 maybe less if you have coupons and shit, it's pretty cheap for what it is. According to its energy guide, it will use 1830KWH in its default mode which is in hybrid mode. Hybrid mode assumes that in order to improve recovery time, like when you take a shower, it will use the resistive coils inside of the water heater to provide good recovery time AND it will run the heatpump at the same time in order to heat the water. I own this water heater.


I just did some reading and apparently, since that Geospring was released, companies are selling significantly more Heatpump water heaters of a better design by both being quieter and more efficient. Here is a Whirlpool heatpump water heater that is even more efficient and is the same price as that older design Geospring.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_89263-135-HPSE2K50HD045V_0__
Energy guide says it uses:1597KWH

http://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-water-heaters/details/2194355


So the older GE Geospring has an Energy Factor of 2.4 while the Whirlpool and a bunch of others that have recently come onto the market have an Energy factor of 2.75. Things have advanced pretty quickly as the GE Geospring was one of the most efficient models on the market but by looking at the electric fan design (cheap fan blade design, non ECM) it was easy to see where they could make improvements to its energy efficiency.




Here is a natural gas high efficiency water heater. This one is so efficient, you'll actually have to wire up an electric fan to vent out the exhaust gasses.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Ec...ater-Heater-ECORHE50/203856743#specifications

According to its energy guide, it will use 183 therms per year.


One thing you should know is that these energy ratings are when the water heater is tested at 135F. Knowing a bit about the law of thermodynamics and the carnot cycle, the heatpump water heater will get significantly more efficient as you turn the temperature down. The heatpump water heater also has the benefit of selectively reducing the first hour rating by switching into heatpump only mode, making it significantly more efficient than its ratings will indicate... However on the other hand, the heatpump water heater will likely lose to the natural gas water heater if the ambient room temperature gets significantly below 45f as it will then be forced into turning on its resistive heater, making it no better than a typical electric water heater.


So in short: very cold room: Natural gas water heater wins. HOT room: Heat pump water heater wins in almost all scenarios. 60F average room temperature, then it depends on utility rates and how often you use the hot water. I will say that a heatpump water heater sounds about as loud as a room air conditioner so that may be an issue.

 

[Scarpozzi]

One thing you should know is that these energy ratings are when the water heater is tested at 135F. Knowing a bit about the law of thermodynamics and the carnot cycle, the heatpump water heater will get significantly more efficient as you turn the temperature down. The heatpump water heater also has the benefit of selectively reducing the first hour rating by switching into heatpump only mode, making it significantly more efficient than its ratings will indicate... However on the other hand, the heatpump water heater will likely lose to the natural gas water heater if the ambient room temperature gets significantly below 45f as it will then be forced into turning on its resistive heater, making it no better than a typical electric water heater.


So in short: very cold room: Natural gas water heater wins. HOT room: Heat pump water heater wins in almost all scenarios. 60F average room temperature, then it depends on utility rates and how often you use the hot water. I will say that a heatpump water heater sounds about as loud as a room air conditioner so that may be an issue.

My tankless Rinnai has a wired external controller you can get. I put my tankless unit in my crawlspace out of the way and ran the thermostat cable upstairs to a control unit. I can adjust them temp on the fly using the keypad (digital settings). It will go up to 140 degrees if I want to change a pin on the motherboard of the heater unit. (commercial setting)....but I have it set to 108 so it's hot enough for a shower and won't burn the kids. We don't use a mixing valve when we take showers...we set it to 100% hot water. It raises efficiency even higher.

 

[DrPizza]

Since it's gas, you need a licensed pipe fitter to do the connection and while it could be a DIY job you need expensive pipe threading tools which may make it not worthwhile.

I would stick with a tank but look into a high efficiency one that has two pipes (intake and exhaust).

That depends on local code. Further, decent hardware stores that supply black pipe can also cut it to custom lengths and thread it for you. Last time I purchased black pipe, I think it cost $.50 per cut and $.75 for threading. (or something on that order) - it's pretty cheap to have done, plus pay by the foot for the pipe. The hardware store was a lot cheaper than box stores. For short sections, even the box stores have a huge variety of lengths: 4', 3', 2', 1', 8", 6", 5", 4", 3", 2", 1", etc. So, even in the absence of a hardware store that can cut pipe and thread it, you can piece it together. But, the more pieces, the more fittings = more cost, plus more joints to check for leaks.

And remember (someone mentioned teflon thread somewhere in this thread) - the teflon thread for gas lines is different from the teflon thread used for water pipes. Make sure you use the right stuff!!

 

[NetWareHead]

And remember (someone mentioned teflon thread somewhere in this thread) - the teflon thread for gas lines is different from the teflon thread used for water pipes. Make sure you use the right stuff!!

Correct, use the yellow teflon tape when working with gas

 

[TheSlamma]

QFT. I went from electric to gas. I put one of these in and am saving $30/month on my electric bill. My gas bill jumped $6-8/month for a family of 4. (2 baths a night, 3-4 showers a day, nightly dishwasher)

Family of 4, I went with the 8 gpm condensing inside unit....Rinnai RC80i.

Best place to buy is from ebay or other sellers who can get them wholesale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rinnai-RC80...989?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c45ac5465

I found it online for under $800 after applying a coupon and bought a $60 vent kit for it....poked a hole in the wall, ran my gas lines/water lines. It's worked great. Just be sure to put a whole house water filter on the intake to prolong the life of your water heater. With the $300 tax credit, it will likely pay for itself in energy savings....

My last 2 water heaters have stopped working because of leaks developing in the tanks.

PM me if you want to know anything. I did the install myself.

Have you had to have the scale cleaned out of that unit yet?

As far as best brand for tank I would do Bradford White, they are the last tank made in the USA (michigan) and their tanks put up with some serious punishment.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Have you had to have the scale cleaned out of that unit yet?

As far as best brand for tank I would do Bradford White, they are the last tank made in the USA (michigan) and their tanks put up with some serious punishment.

Well, the new water heater is installed. They did a nice job, very professional. We went from a 40 gallon heater to a 50 gallon and the water coming out of our tap now is very hot. Might have to turn it down a bit as it is almost scalding hot.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

I'm getting ready to replace ours. It is 20 years old and is way overdue to be replaced. Originally I was going to buy one and install it myself with the help of a friend who has done this before. Problem is, he is busy, I am busy and I don't really want to impose on his time to help me with a simple plumbing issue so now I'm thinking of hiring someone to do it.

My wife called a plumber, she is a Realtor and used to be a property manager for large industrial properties (multi-million sq ft properties) so she is actually very knowledgeable in this area and has people she has used for years. Anyway, they use and recommend Bradford White water heaters. I've never heard of this brand before so I was wondering if this is a quality product.

My friend has a Rheem water heater and he thinks those are good quality.

Anyone have any recommendations?

BTW-I love that my wife can handle this kind of thing. I really do. :biggrin:

Stiebel Eltron Accelera 300 - Hybrid electric HW heater. Was the most efficient on the market as of last year. Costs us ~$340/year to run (family of 4) and we are not sparing when it comes to hot water.

http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/accelera.html

 

[Scarpozzi]

Have you had to have the scale cleaned out of that unit yet?

As far as best brand for tank I would do Bradford White, they are the last tank made in the USA (michigan) and their tanks put up with some serious punishment.

I've not done the flush on it yet. I installed it last February and don't have hard water. I've got the cold water feed going through a 5 micron filter. I'll probably flush it this winter when I get a chance.

I just upgraded all my water lines in the house to 3/4" copper up from 1/2" copper, so I don't want to touch that stuff for a few more weeks. It was a heck of a job...

 

[WilliamM2]

As far as best brand for tank I would do Bradford White, they are the last tank made in the USA (michigan) and their tanks put up with some serious punishment.

They are good tanks, but they are not the only tanks made in the USA. Rheem, American, State, A.O. Smith, etc, all still make tanks in the USA. They also sell them under many other brand names, Whirlpool, Kenmore, Rudd, etc.

 

[Scarpozzi]

They are good tanks, but they are not the only tanks made in the USA. Rheem, American, State, A.O. Smith, etc, all still make tanks in the USA. They also sell them under many other brand names, Whirlpool, Kenmore, Rudd, etc.

Exactly. There are quite a few still made in the USA. I can't say you get what you pay for when it comes to water heaters. All of them typically work until they break....whatever the problem ends up being. Some tank units have extra intelligence built in or are extra efficient using new technologies....

For me, a leak developed somewhere in my last water heater (A.O. Smith). I drained it and tried replacing the elements thinking a seal had failed, but saw rust around the threads. I couldn't tell where the water was coming from, but it was leaking just as bad after I tightened everything back down, so I opted to replace it. A cheap, non-EnergyStar model was $300-350....and went up to $700-800 for the nicer tank models.

 

[TheSlamma]

They are good tanks, but they are not the only tanks made in the USA. Rheem, American, State, A.O. Smith, etc, all still make tanks in the USA. They also sell them under many other brand names, Whirlpool, Kenmore, Rudd, etc.

All the AO's and Rheems I have seen all say Mexico?

 

[TheSlamma]

I've not done the flush on it yet. I installed it last February and don't have hard water. I've got the cold water feed going through a 5 micron filter. I'll probably flush it this winter when I get a chance.

I just upgraded all my water lines in the house to 3/4" copper up from 1/2" copper, so I don't want to touch that stuff for a few more weeks. It was a heck of a job...

That sounds great, I've heard mixed things on the tankless and it was all based on water quality, sounds like yours will do just fine for a long time. That's cool about upgrading the lines to the 3/4" I did a 100% conversion from galvanized to copper at my last house, my wife and I just moved in here in December and this place is mostly done but I have a few runs I'd like to upgrade to the larger lines and 1 outdoor silcock that still has galvanized to it. For the outdoor lines the difference is amazing having all that additional volume.