Anyone here work for a phone svc provider or 911 call center? (caller ID question)

[Ichinisan]

Probably a long shot looking for an answer here...

I work for a small local cable company and we offer digital phone service through an EMTA device (technically VoIP). Customers getting phone service for the first time would frequently choose to hide both the number and the name from the caller ID info.

Now I'm told that we can no longer allow customers to hide the phone number because it's necessary for emergency 911 services. We're told to tell customers they must dial *67 every time to hide the caller ID info during outgoing calls.

That sounds strange to me. I've always been aware of businesses and individuals that don't show a name or number through caller ID, and they don't have to dial *67 each time.

I also remember someone playing a phone prank in the late '90's and using *67 when calling a local pizza place. The pizza place somehow got the number and called right back to make sure the order was legit. I always assumed that some organizations, like pizzerias and 911 call centers, would be able to tell the number even if it's not included in the caller ID info.

I think we're making it harder to sell our phone service for no real reason. Does anyone here know about this sort of thing?

 

[drebo]

The idea is that the location information for 911 is looked up based on the phone number (or transmitted out-of-band if you have one of the ridiculously expensive setups that allows you to transmit E911 location information in real-time).

So, if 911 doesn't know what phone number (because you're not providing it), it doesn't know where the caller is. More than that, though, the PSAP the call is routed to is determined (in part) by telephone number.

The best course of action would be to hide callerid unless the caller is calling 911. Depending on your softswitch, this could be rather easy (asterisk) or rather difficult.

 

[geno]

It's perfectly legal to restrict your caller ID at the far end, this is usually called CLIR which restricts caller ID. This isn't done at the originating point, but by the carrier's network, so the originating number is always known (by the carrier, at least), but not always delivered to the far end / destination point. I don't know how that works with 911, but I'd be willing to bet that CLIR is forced off so the calling number is always displayed on those emergency calls. I think your company isn't entirely clear on what it means to have a restricted caller ID, since it's not legal to have NO caller ID, it sounds like the two scenarios are being mixed up. Either that or your company doesn't uphold the privacy flag in the call setup.

Now, maybe there is a possibility that by enabling CLIR that the number will not be delivered to 911, but I just don't know why carriers wouldn't force the CLI to be present on such calls.

 

[BoomerD]

Hell, we've had call blocking for years, yet on the couple of occasions when I've called 9-1-1, they knew exactly where the call originated. While it may not be so everywhere, caller id isn't blocked for such calls around here.

 

[GeekDrew]

Your company's implementation of caller ID blocking is flawed. Hire an engineer that knows how to properly provide telephony services to customers.

 

[drebo]

Hell, we've had call blocking for years, yet on the couple of occasions when I've called 9-1-1, they knew exactly where the call originated. While it may not be so everywhere, caller id isn't blocked for such calls around here.

As stated, it depends on the implementation. If you flat-out block all caller ID for any calls originating from that peer, then 911 isn't going to know what number the call is coming from.

Your carrier has its system configured to provide caller ID to 911 calls, but not to other calls.

 

[BoomerD]

As stated, it depends on the implementation. If you flat-out block all caller ID for any calls originating from that peer, then 911 isn't going to know what number the call is coming from.

Your carrier has its system configured to provide caller ID to 911 calls, but not to other calls.

Well no shit...the point being, WHY would any municipality or state even permit caller ID blocking to affect 9-1-1 calls?

According to one of the local (non-AT&T phone providers, Kahlifornia PUC sez:

You cannot block transmission of your telephone number for calls to 9-1-1, 800, 888, 855, 866, 877, or 900 service, regardless of the blocking option you choose. If, for some reason, you want to report an emergency without having your number displayed, you should call the agency's seven-digit number instead of 9-1-1. If the number you are calling from is not equipped with Complete Blocking, you will need to press *67 before you dial the agency's number in order to block your number from being shown (or 1167 on a rotary telephone). Caller ID blocking may not work on interstate calls.

Apparently this is common in many states.

 

[rudder]

I worked for one for several years. It was nasty work... having to get old fat guys all worked up and listen to them get off.

oh crap... nevermind I thought you said phone sex provider.

 

[drebo]

Well no shit...the point being, WHY would any municipality or state even permit caller ID blocking to affect 9-1-1 calls?

Oh, I'm well aware of the regulations. The issue here is that the provider doesn't know how to configure their equipment to operate correctly. The gubment can mandate whatever they want, and the telco will get plenty of complaint letters when they send calls to the PSAP with no callerid. The company's solution is to not offer the service, rather than adjust their equipment to behave correctly.

The provider knows what port (logical port, in this case) a call originates on, and the provider knows what phone number is associated with that port, thus the provider can assign whatever callerid to that call he wants at any time, until that call leaves his network. On a call to 911, he would see the port/account associated with where the call is originating from, see that it was destined to 911, and overwrite whatever other callerid (or lack of) was there with the appropriate callerid.

The issue here is not that it can't be done, but rather that the company doesn't know how to do it.

 

[BoomerD]

Oh, I'm well aware of the regulations. The issue here is that the provider doesn't know how to configure their equipment to operate correctly. The gubment can mandate whatever they want, and the telco will get plenty of complaint letters when they send calls to the PSAP with no callerid. The company's solution is to not offer the service, rather than adjust their equipment to behave correctly.

The provider knows what port (logical port, in this case) a call originates on, and the provider knows what phone number is associated with that port, thus the provider can assign whatever callerid to that call he wants at any time, until that call leaves his network. On a call to 911, he would see the port/account associated with where the call is originating from, see that it was destined to 911, and overwrite whatever other callerid (or lack of) was there with the appropriate callerid.

The issue here is not that it can't be done, but rather that the company doesn't know how to do it.

Sounds like a personnel problem to me...

 

[Ichinisan]

Coming back to this thread after a long time...

Your company's implementation of caller ID blocking is flawed. Hire an engineer that knows how to properly provide telephony services to customers.

Strange thing is, our phone service offering is powered by a major telco that is never mentioned to our customers. The modems automatically obtain a config file with SIP credentials to access the major telco's phone switching system. All the stuff mentioned in this thread would be handled by them, so it's strange that this would be a matter of having competent engineers. I've never heard of another phone company with this limitation.

 

[GeekDrew]

Coming back to this thread after a long time...



Strange thing is, our phone service offering is powered by a major telco that is never mentioned to our customers. The modems automatically obtain a config file with SIP credentials to access the major telco's phone switching system. All the stuff mentioned in this thread would be handled by them, so it's strange that this would be a matter of having competent engineers. I've never heard of another phone company with this limitation.

That's surprising to me. Perhaps the company has found a loophole that permits this? Or perhaps they take the cheap way out of everything, and bought equipment that can't do what it needs to do. Regardless..... stupid.

 

[D1gger]

That's surprising to me. Perhaps the company has found a loophole that permits this? Or perhaps they take the cheap way out of everything, and bought equipment that can't do what it needs to do. Regardless..... stupid.

Or perhaps the major telco is screwing with their competitor by not configuring their call handling properly. The OP's company then is forced to deliver an inferior product to their customers (forcing them to dial *67 with each call).

 

[Spydermag68]

At where I work we have access to 3 types customer numbers.
We over-write one of them and the number becomes hidden.

The reason why 911 can get your number and know where your house is that we deliver the other two in the clear. That is also the reason pizza chains can call you back to verify that you ordered.

 

[Lifted]

At where I work we have access to 3 types customer numbers.
We over-write one of them and the number becomes hidden.

The reason why 911 can get your number and know where your house is that we deliver the other two in the clear. That is also the reason pizza chains can call you back to verify that you ordered.

Does this work with a PRI? I haven't gone too crazy with it, but I can put any number I want on my lines and that number and associated CNAM entry is presented to the called party. It may be different throughout different regions of the country.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Strange thing is, our phone service offering is powered by a major telco that is never mentioned to our customers. The modems automatically obtain a config file with SIP credentials to access the major telco's phone switching system. All the stuff mentioned in this thread would be handled by them, so it's strange that this would be a matter of having competent engineers. I've never heard of another phone company with this limitation.

sounds just like how they used to screw over alternative dsl companies.

ooops! misconfigured network!
ooops! cut fiber!
ooops! no power in the rack!
ooops! it fell out the window!

if you're paying for a service, do not put up with this crap. a municipal or other small MSO might not afford a soft switch and engineers, but you should be able to find another contractor.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Probably a long shot looking for an answer here...

I work for a small local cable company and we offer digital phone service through an EMTA device (technically VoIP). Customers getting phone service for the first time would frequently choose to hide both the number and the name from the caller ID info.

Now I'm told that we can no longer allow customers to hide the phone number because it's necessary for emergency 911 services. We're told to tell customers they must dial *67 every time to hide the caller ID info during outgoing calls.

That sounds strange to me. I've always been aware of businesses and individuals that don't show a name or number through caller ID, and they don't have to dial *67 each time.

I also remember someone playing a phone prank in the late '90's and using *67 when calling a local pizza place. The pizza place somehow got the number and called right back to make sure the order was legit. I always assumed that some organizations, like pizzerias and 911 call centers, would be able to tell the number even if it's not included in the caller ID info.

I think we're making it harder to sell our phone service for no real reason. Does anyone here know about this sort of thing?

Um, you just set the passthrough option to 0 or 1 for specific numbers?

People can already program their IP boxes to do that with whatever numbers they want and they'd connect to your server so you could do it right there.

I don't know how it works in the US with other services though, you might want to get up to speed on that before you start reconfiguring the servers.