Anyone here consider themselves non-socialists?

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Since we're playing loose with the definitions, I'm referring to someone who opposes all socialism, rather than the hybrid system we have.

Is there anyone here who supports ending:

- All taxpayer-funded education - Abraham Lincoln got some books and taught himself the law.

- All public fire departments - if you want fire protection, hire a private contractor. (Ben Franklin started the public system).

- All public libraries - the private bookseller sells books. (Ben Franklin again).

- The standing US Military - Jefferson was against one, and today, there are more private contractors hired by the government in Afghanistan and Iraq than military forces.

- All public roads - if there's a demand for a road, someone will build it and sell access.

- All emergency medical care paid for by the state - people when the country was created didn't have government paid emergency rooms.

- Putting a man on the moon - not the government's job to go around spending tax dollars to thrill the public. One of these days, the private sector can develop it.

- Federal regulation of the economic system. If you want to invest in a stock, why should the government tell you and the seller what rules you have to follow? That's not freedom.

There should be any number of competing stock markets, and the free market will ensure with competition that adequate safeguards are in place, or people won't spend there.

Why should the government have a monopoly with the dollar - private parties and states can set up whatever currencies they want.

- Federal consumer protection. If Kraft starts selling food that kills, people won't buy Kraft - the free market ensures adequate protection - we don't need red tape inflating prices.

- PBS/NPR. Potential to become 1984-like tools of government media dominance. If the people want excellent documentaries, the private sector will make all they need.

- America's Army computer game. Besides the unfair competition (free) for private shooter games, we won't need it to recruit for the no-longer standing army.

- Government-collected data. If people want economic data, they can pay a private firm to collect it.

- Police. Criminal courts will still be provided to prosecute crimes if sufficient evidence is brought to prosecutors, but the police won't invesigate for free. Hire a police service.

- Medical research sponsored by the government. The private sector researches, and that's all that we should do.

- Social Security. Before it the elder poverty rate was 90%, but the constitution is the constitution.

- Medicare. Ending Medicare will reduce the number of elders in poverty. Not the percent, but the numbers.

- Welfare. Will reduce the number of poor similarly to the Medicare effect.

- EPA. Where there is sufficient demand, the private sector can clean up pollution.

- National Parks. If people want them, private companies can buy the land and sell passes.

Does anyone here agree with opposing all socialist programs?
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Craig234
I'm a troll.
Yes you are. I know this since it takes one to know one.
Dick weed. I wish you wouldn't bother others with your self hate.

I bet it's easy for you to answer the op though - privatize them all, if people need these services, they'll find a way to pay for them - and if they're starving, fuck'em.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I'd be fine with most of that. People would organize themselves and take care of it. Humans by nature want to take care of each other, we can't really help it...we're pack animals.

You're talking anarchy/hard core libertarian stuffs though.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
I prefer to be a "cafeteria-style" socialist.


I am also a "cafeteria-style" capitalist.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
I see the difference between state, local and federal government, as well as taxpayer funded government services that benefit society as a whole, and entitlements completely whizes right over some peoples heads.
 

Praxis1452

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,197
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Since we're playing loose with the definitions, I'm referring to someone who opposes all socialism, rather than the hybrid system we have.

Is there anyone here who supports ending:

- All taxpayer-funded education - Abraham Lincoln got some books and taught himself the law.

- All public fire departments - if you want fire protection, hire a private contractor. (Ben Franklin started the public system).

- All public libraries - the private bookseller sells books. (Ben Franklin again).

- The standing US Military - Jefferson was against one, and today, there are more private contractors hired by the government in Afghanistan and Iraq than military forces.

- All public roads - if there's a demand for a road, someone will build it and sell access.

- All emergency medical care paid for by the state - people when the country was created didn't have government paid emergency rooms.

- Putting a man on the moon - not the government's job to go around spending tax dollars to thrill the public. One of these days, the private sector can develop it.

- Federal regulation of the economic system. If you want to invest in a stock, why should the government tell you and the seller what rules you have to follow? That's not freedom.

There should be any number of competing stock markets, and the free market will ensure with competition that adequate safeguards are in place, or people won't spend there.

Why should the government have a monopoly with the dollar - private parties and states can set up whatever currencies they want.

- Federal consumer protection. If Kraft starts selling food that kills, people won't buy Kraft - the free market ensures adequate protection - we don't need red tape inflating prices.

- PBS/NPR. Potential to become 1984-like tools of government media dominance. If the people want excellent documentaries, the private sector will make all they need.

- America's Army computer game. Besides the unfair competition (free) for private shooter games, we won't need it to recruit for the no-longer standing army.

- Government-collected data. If people want economic data, they can pay a private firm to collect it.

- Police. Criminal courts will still be provided to prosecute crimes if sufficient evidence is brought to prosecutors, but the police won't invesigate for free. Hire a police service.

- Medical research sponsored by the government. The private sector researches, and that's all that we should do.

- Social Security. Before it the elder poverty rate was 90%, but the constitution is the constitution.

- Medicare. Ending Medicare will reduce the number of elders in poverty. Not the percent, but the numbers.

- Welfare. Will reduce the number of poor similarly to the Medicare effect.

- EPA. Where there is sufficient demand, the private sector can clean up pollution.

- National Parks. If people want them, private companies can buy the land and sell passes.

Does anyone here agree with opposing all socialist programs?
Yes. I'm an anarchist so I'd agree. Much more closely related to anarcho-capitalism than other forms of anarchy ex. Anarcho-communism/pure-communism. But I'd say simply that I'm an egoist.

But a few points I'd like to make, and then you can attempt to troll me.

1. There is a difference between a public library/anything supported by funds from the community, who in exchange have access to the wealth of information stored there, and a public library paid for by people under the threat of imprisonment. And you will go to jail if you don't pay taxes.

2. I even like anarcho-communism to some extent.

3. People don't have rights. Why do you have the "right" to free speech to property etc.? Because there are people with guns to enforce such rights. To put the people who try to take your property in prison. Police don't appear magically out of thin air. They are created by society and paid by them willingly or unwillingly. People too often use the word rights as something different than "I think this should happen" or "I believe this is the way things should be" as if describing some natural law of the universe that must be enforced. Last I checked gravity did not need police. And this is where I disagree with anarcho-capitalism. Anarcho-capitalism believes that property is a right.

4. I say that without police to defend your "property" or yourself or private contractors, any person stronger than you can make it his quite easily. And in this manner property is something gotten through aggression against all who could also have such property. Given a limited supply of say land, by taking/using/claiming some land, you have taken that land away from others who might also have owned it. By taking the land whether by force or diplomacy have gained rightful access to it.

5. Simply put: Might is right. And that's why I'm anarchist. Government(democratic/representative) is not an agent of good for all or some neutral entity, it is power controlled by votes. Votes which rely on majority for the most part. So those who produce more children and indoctrinate children to their beliefs have more power. Of course their are nuances such as border lines, states, etc. But in the end the basic element of democracy is that 51 people know better than 49. I think it's horrendously false.

6. Going along with the rest of my comments I don't believe all people are equal. Equal under the law? Why should everyone get equal treatment if they are not all equal?

7. I don't believe in fantastic ideas that people have created about humanity, but rather I believe in what actually occurs. When a man is imprisoned by the government, he did not become imprisoned because he was in the wrong. Such subjective arguments are worthless. He became imprisoned because he was not as powerful as the government, as society.
 

themusgrat

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2005
1,408
0
0
Craig, in a perfect world, socialism would be the best government. That's obvious. Where you and your thankfully-few buddies get it wrong, is that we don't live in a perfect world. A perfect world is a requirement for true socialism, but not the other way around. You can make an argument for all the things you listed, just like you can make an argument against them. Some are things we need, some aren't. You know what though? Any of the extremes are bad. Pure socialism, or no socialism. Maybe long, long ago, we could have completely lived without any socialist practices or services whatesoever, but it's obvious that our society has made ourselves dependent on many of the things you list above. Now we tell ourselves we have the right to those things.

All that said, none of it gives you an excuse to come here and give us moar and moar flame bait. There's enough of that already.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: seemingly random
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Craig234
I'm a troll.
Yes you are. I know this since it takes one to know one.
Dick weed. I wish you wouldn't bother others with your self hate.

I bet it's easy for you to answer the op though - privatize them all, if people need these services, they'll find a way to pay for them - and if they're starving, fuck'em.

Self Hate Dems have that cornered too with electing BHO. Hell it made them just feel better about themselves.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Your Craig and you reply to threads with good arguments and supply links n stuff, so I have to put a crazy label on you so I can make it throu my day
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: spidey07
.... People would organize themselves and take care of it.

As in creating a government to make sure it gets done??

The problem is the right wingers want to paint a black and white picture about socialism but completely ignore the fact that we already have a lot of socialist elements in place. Most of which they take for granted.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: themusgrat
Craig, in a perfect world, socialism would be the best government. That's obvious. Where you and your thankfully-few buddies get it wrong, is that we don't live in a perfect world. A perfect world is a requirement for true socialism, but not the other way around. You can make an argument for all the things you listed, just like you can make an argument against them. Some are things we need, some aren't. You know what though? Any of the extremes are bad. Pure socialism, or no socialism. Maybe long, long ago, we could have completely lived without any socialist practices or services whatesoever, but it's obvious that our society has made ourselves dependent on many of the things you list above. Now we tell ourselves we have the right to those things.

All that said, none of it gives you an excuse to come here and give us moar and moar flame bait. There's enough of that already.

Who is arguing for a pure socialist system? Nobody that I know of. But whenever anyone mentions UHC the righties bring out the socialist arguments. Like a poster said above you pick from the capitalistic things that work as well as the socialistic things. Capitalistic health-care is broken for most Americans and needs to be fixed.
 

Praxis1452

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,197
0
0
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: spidey07
.... People would organize themselves and take care of it.

As in creating a government to make sure it gets done??

The problem is the right wingers want to paint a black and white picture about socialism but completely ignore the fact that we already have a lot of socialist elements in place. Most of which they take for granted.

There happens to be a large difference between organization itself and government. One occurs voluntarily, and one uses force to maintain "order".
 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,631
88
91
Originally posted by: Praxis1452
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: spidey07
.... People would organize themselves and take care of it.

As in creating a government to make sure it gets done??

The problem is the right wingers want to paint a black and white picture about socialism but completely ignore the fact that we already have a lot of socialist elements in place. Most of which they take for granted.

There happens to be a large difference between organization itself and government. One occurs voluntarily, and one uses force to maintain "order".

Any organization that deals with common property resources will inevitably apply coercion to some extent. These organizations have to deal with Pareto inefficiencies resulting from the free rider problem.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: spidey07
I'd be fine with most of that. People would organize themselves and take care of it. Humans by nature want to take care of each other, we can't really help it...we're pack animals.

You're talking anarchy/hard core libertarian stuffs though.

People organizing themselves and taking care of it is exactly what govt is. Govt is not some mythical beast or deity. It is us. 'Libertarian stuffs' is about seeking to use as little coercion/force as possible while organizing ourselves.

edit: 2 other separate points I'd like to address in this thread:
- The present heath system in the US is not 'capitalistic' (whatever that means). Capitalism requires market economies, and markets require some type of association/negotiation relationship between producers and consumers. That does not exist in our present health care system, where consumers have no idea what the costs are prior to consumption.
- Socialism would not be the best form of government even in a perfect world (whatever that means as well). This faulty premise is IMO the biggest misnomer among both socialism's proponents and opponents alike. The very notion of perfection is an OPINION, and opinions are fantasies.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
The only purpose of this was to troll as that the OP has not returned in over a day after the initial post.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: dphantom
The only purpose of this was to troll as that the OP has not returned in over a day after the initial post.

Looks like everybody didn't take the bait and instead had an intelligent discussion.
:thumbsup:
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: spidey07
I'd be fine with most of that. People would organize themselves and take care of it. Humans by nature want to take care of each other, we can't really help it...we're pack animals.

You're talking anarchy/hard core libertarian stuffs though.

People organizing themselves and taking care of it is exactly what govt is. Govt is not some mythical beast or deity. It is us. 'Libertarian stuffs' is about seeking to use as little coercion/force as possible while organizing ourselves.

<snip>

That was kind of my point and what I alluded to. That across all human cultures and AFAIK most all primates there is a hierarchy and organization. You're right about the force aspect though. In the natural world socialism cannot exist as it completely inhibits and denies evolution and natural selection. Don't call me a nazi/facist, call me a social Darwinist...been that way for a long time.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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It's a rare day indeed when I can even somewhat agree with Craig234 but I have to support him in this case. This thread is no more a troll than the other. If anything it's a separate response to demonstrate that there's a little bit of socialist in nearly everyone, just as there's a bit of conservative, along with a bit of liberal, and maybe even a dash of communism (because one thing most all of us have in common is idealism of one kind or another). Our only differences are in what percentages of those each of us individually subscribes to.
 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,631
88
91
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: spidey07
I'd be fine with most of that. People would organize themselves and take care of it. Humans by nature want to take care of each other, we can't really help it...we're pack animals.

You're talking anarchy/hard core libertarian stuffs though.

People organizing themselves and taking care of it is exactly what govt is. Govt is not some mythical beast or deity. It is us. 'Libertarian stuffs' is about seeking to use as little coercion/force as possible while organizing ourselves.

<snip>

That was kind of my point and what I alluded to. That across all human cultures and AFAIK most all primates there is a hierarchy and organization. You're right about the force aspect though. In the natural world socialism cannot exist as it completely inhibits and denies evolution and natural selection. Don't call me a nazi/facist, call me a social Darwinist...been that way for a long time.

There's both a hierarchy and sense of community. Across many cultures, people feel a sense of pleasure at what is perceived to be charity and a sense of fairness. It is likely partially culturally based as well as physiologically based. It's interesting to note the results of the Ultimatum Game. It suggests that utility is not necessarily based on personal gain and social Darwinism, but the well-being of the community as a whole. In many cultures, player 1 will offer a completely fair 50:50 split, completely in opposition to the belief that player 1 will maximize their utility by capturing as much wealth as possible.

It has also been shown that the chemical Oxytocin can increase generosity in humans and other primates. You can read an interesting journal article here. It certainly suggests that the community has played a strong role in our evolution as a species. A little social Darwinism, yes, but also a sense of community, fairness, and social justice as well.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: seemingly random
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Craig234
I'm a troll.
Yes you are. I know this since it takes one to know one.
Dick weed. I wish you wouldn't bother others with your self hate.

I bet it's easy for you to answer the op though - privatize them all, if people need these services, they'll find a way to pay for them - and if they're starving, fuck'em.

Self Hate Dems have that cornered too with electing BHO. Hell it made them just feel better about themselves.

actually, no.....it was because the republican party gave us the worst president in our history
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,670
4
0
Craig, in a perfect world, socialism would be the best government.

And you're saying capitalism doesn't need a perfect world?!?!?!?!?

How about a hybrid system, which most progressives promote?


 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
I'll throw $100 on OP's one-way to Caracas. Flights are cheap right now. Oh, and I'm a man of my word.