Anyone have experience with Airtight homes?

[Vdubchaos]

Kaido Kaido Kaido

I know you get your panties wet with excitement when it comes to "new tech" and all but you have to keep things realistic. ANYTHING that's new and not mainstream requires "guinea pigs". Basically a consumer that is willing to pay top dollar and take on a LOT of risk associated with new tech.

Let me tell you a little secret to "new technology". Basically, if it's not already mainstream, leave it the hell alone and let others take the risk and save your money.

You also have to be aware of anything that has a lot of hype around it and IS mainstream as well, and invest time to figure out if it's something that will benefit YOU specifically (apple products are a great example).

Lot of companies are slowly become gods of marketing....

One of the best insulation you can get is Rockwool. It doesn't burn, has great insulation properties and has amazing soundproofing properties (one of the best in the business). But it's not CHEAP.

Don't worry about air tight crap. You do NOT want your house to be airtight (trust me on this) for variety of reason (including the ones you stated).

You need to do a much better job at filtering the BS buddy.....

That's actually why I'm not interested in radiant floor heating. Almost everyone I've talked to say they would always get sore throats after installing it for like a year afterward. I'm not sure if that's due to outgassing or the way the heat works or what.

Radiant heating doesn't pump air into the house, it simply "gives off heat".

Sore throats you say ehh? You realize that MOST of America has Oil based heat that pumps air thru the ducts......never clean the ducts........or change the air filter........hehe

Radiant floor heating is probably one of the best way to go when it comes to heating up the house.....but it's not cheap. Stick to much cheaper alternative of simple radiators + Natural Gas. But if you have plenty of money, go nuts....might as well do Geothermal as well.

 

[Kaido]

My house is pretty airtight (I've replaced all the doors, weather stripped all the windows, and caulked the heck out of anywhere a draft was coming through). I put a 300cfm energy recover ventilator in that also acts as a radon mitigation system in conjunction with my sub-slab depressurization.

I'm not sure there are any passive systems for ventilation that will recover outgoing heat.

"Natural leakage" described in the 10% glass ratio is no different than opening a window.

Yeah, not so much interested in the heat as much as just air quality.

Is the house not high enough up to avoid radon, thus needing the fan?

 

[Kaido]

One of the best insulation you can get is Rockwool. It doesn't burn, has great insulation properties and has amazing soundproofing properties (one of the best in the business). But it's not CHEAP.

Don't worry about air tight crap. You do NOT want your house to be airtight (trust me on this) for variety of reason (including the ones you stated)

I'm interested in concrete construction, specifically insulated concrete forms, so Rockwool wouldn't really apply because the insulation is built into the construction material.

 

[bignateyk]

Yeah, not so much interested in the heat as much as just air quality.

Is the house not high enough up to avoid radon, thus needing the fan?

It's a split level house, with 1 level being completely below grade, 1 level being on grade, and the other 2 levels above grade. Radon levels (in the below grade basement) measured 35pCi/L prior to any mitigation. The sub-slab depressurization I put in dropped it to 5pCi/L. The addition of the ERV dropped it to 0.7pCi/L, which is roughly the same as the outdoor radon level.

I pump the fresh air into my below grade basement, which puts a positive pressure on the lower levels of my house, which prevents vapor from rising through the slab. I exhaust air from the main level of the house.

 

[Vdubchaos]

I'm interested in concrete construction, specifically insulated concrete forms, so Rockwool wouldn't really apply because the insulation is built into the construction material.

Just remember, insulation is worthless without a heating or cooling source.

Even the best of the best will eventually reach outside temperature.....

Read: you are wasting your time and money.

It's a split level house, with 1 level being completely below grade, 1 level being on grade, and the other 2 levels above grade. Radon levels (in the below grade basement) measured 35ppm prior to any mitigation. The sub-slab depressurization I put in dropped it to 5ppm. The addition of the ERV dropped it to 0.7ppm.

I pump the fresh air into my below grade basement, which puts a positive pressure on the lower levels of my house, which prevents vapor from rising through the slab. I exhaust air from the main level of the house.

Go anywhere around the world and no one gives a shit about Radon. Here in US they actually managed to get this into a fuckin law......

Don't get me wrong, at higher levels, it's probably a good idea to resolve the issue. But keep in mind that at 10ppm, if 10 people lived in a basement (not 1st or 2nd floor)....there is a VERY small chance of one of them getting lung cancer (below 5% I believe).

And then I welcome you to go around the world and compare the lung cancer rates vs US hehe

You might want to take a close look at the pollution in you area......vs worrying about radon. But of course no one gives a shit about REAL problems.

 

[Kaido]

Radiant heating doesn't pump air into the house, it simply "gives off heat".

Sore throats you say ehh? You realize that MOST of America has Oil based heat that pumps air thru the ducts......never clean the ducts........or change the air filter........hehe

Radiant floor heating is probably one of the best way to go when it comes to heating up the house.....but it's not cheap. Stick to much cheaper alternative of simple radiators + Natural Gas. But if you have plenty of money, go nuts....might as well do Geothermal as well.

I think the issue was the glues and whatnot from the tiles and other systems underneath were outgassing, although I never followed up to see if anyone had found the root cause of it.

I really like the Mitsubishi Mr. Slim units. It's basically a swamp cooler that also does heat & doesn't have to be located in a window. The outdoor unit can run one indoor unit, or there are also units that can drive multiple indoor units from a single outdoor unit. So everyone gets to control the temperature in their own room, and you can turn off the HVAC systems in the rooms you're not using. Sort of like a zoned HVAC system, except it's zoned to every room you put in an indoor unit in. I have a couple of friends who have put this system in and it's really amazing, I like it quite a bit. The room you're in starts getting hot or cold right away too, which is great.

 

[Kaido]

It's a split level house, with 1 level being completely below grade, 1 level being on grade, and the other 2 levels above grade. Radon levels (in the below grade basement) measured 35pCi/L prior to any mitigation. The sub-slab depressurization I put in dropped it to 5pCi/L. The addition of the ERV dropped it to 0.7pCi/L, which is roughly the same as the outdoor radon level.

I pump the fresh air into my below grade basement, which puts a positive pressure on the lower levels of my house, which prevents vapor from rising through the slab. I exhaust air from the main level of the house.

Ah, neat! I've opted not to go with a basement or second story in my design. Basically a raised floor with some sort of skirt around it, no slab even. Whole thing is based off a cold-pressed steel moment frame design:

http://blueskybuildingsystems.com/systems/frame/

Nice & simple, bolts together. I really like the ICF concrete construction idea, but Murus SIPs panels come CNC'd from the factory per your blueprint and they offer an XPS flavor, so that's pretty cool. Plus they can route wire runs and whatever you need, so you can slap everything together pretty quickly.

 

[bignateyk]

Just remember, insulation is worthless without a heating or cooling source.

Even the best of the best will eventually reach outside temperature.....

Read: you are wasting your time and money.



Go anywhere around the world and no one gives a shit about Radon. Here in US they actually managed to get this into a fuckin law......

Don't get me wrong, at higher levels, it's probably a good idea to resolve the issue. But keep in mind that at 10ppm, if 10 people lived in a basement (not 1st or 2nd floor)....there is a VERY small chance of one of them getting lung cancer (below 5% I believe).

And then I welcome you to go around the world and compare the lung cancer rates vs US hehe

You might want to take a close look at the pollution in you area......vs worrying about radon. But of course no one gives a shit about REAL problems.

The scam is how much people pay to mitigate it. I did the slub slab depressurization myself for about $150. A contractor charges about $1300 for the same work. The sub-slab depressurization helps keep the humidity down in our basement, which was another reason I put it in.

 

[Vdubchaos]

I think the issue was the glues and whatnot from the tiles and other systems underneath were outgassing, although I never followed up to see if anyone had found the root cause of it.

I really like the Mitsubishi Mr. Slim units. It's basically a swamp cooler that also does heat & doesn't have to be located in a window. The outdoor unit can run one indoor unit, or there are also units that can drive multiple indoor units from a single outdoor unit. So everyone gets to control the temperature in their own room, and you can turn off the HVAC systems in the rooms you're not using. Sort of like a zoned HVAC system, except it's zoned to every room you put in an indoor unit in. I have a couple of friends who have put this system in and it's really amazing, I like it quite a bit. The room you're in starts getting hot or cold right away too, which is great.

Correct

When it comes to heating and cooling you have to look to Europe or Asia for great technology.

Furnace technology is pathetic compare to rest of the world.....it's also made to be very unreliable (expect your furnace to last 15-20 years....regardless what you pay).

 

[Kaido]

Just remember, insulation is worthless without a heating or cooling source.

Even the best of the best will eventually reach outside temperature.....

Read: you are wasting your time and money.

I wouldn't say it's a complete waste...

This ICF/spray foam insulated home in Tennessee, the winner of a 2004 Concrete Excellence Award, used EnergyWise’s “systems approach” to achieving maximum heating and cooling efficiency. Although the home is a massive 13,524 square feet, electricity for the heating, cooling and hot water costs run about $5.50 per day or $166 per month.

http://www.energywisestructures.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/EW_3pg_rev.pdf

 

[Humpy]

Kaido Kaido Kaido

I know you get your panties wet with excitement when it comes to "new tech" and all but you have to keep things realistic. ANYTHING that's new and not mainstream requires "guinea pigs". Basically a consumer that is willing to pay top dollar and take on a LOT of risk associated with new tech.

Let me tell you a little secret to "new technology". Basically, if it's not already mainstream, leave it the hell alone and let others take the risk and save your money.

You also have to be aware of anything that has a lot of hype around it and IS mainstream as well, and invest time to figure out if it's something that will benefit YOU specifically (apple products are a great example).

Lot of companies are slowly become gods of marketing....

One of the best insulation you can get is Rockwool. It doesn't burn, has great insulation properties and has amazing soundproofing properties (one of the best in the business). But it's not CHEAP.

Don't worry about air tight crap. You do NOT want your house to be airtight (trust me on this) for variety of reason (including the ones you stated).

You need to do a much better job at filtering the BS buddy.....

There isn't much new technology available for housing construction that hasn't been proven one way or another. Much of it isn't mainstream in the US because of our focus on cost per square foot. The vast majority of the houses built here are the worst houses that can legally be built, i.e. "built to code".

An air tight house can easily be made efficient and healthy by including the dead simple, inexpensive, and proven ERV. A high R value structure is pretty useless if there is high air infiltration. It does all have to work together and it is almost always a pay now or pay later type of trade off.

 

[bignateyk]

I think the issue was the glues and whatnot from the tiles and other systems underneath were outgassing, although I never followed up to see if anyone had found the root cause of it.

I really like the Mitsubishi Mr. Slim units. It's basically a swamp cooler that also does heat & doesn't have to be located in a window. The outdoor unit can run one indoor unit, or there are also units that can drive multiple indoor units from a single outdoor unit. So everyone gets to control the temperature in their own room, and you can turn off the HVAC systems in the rooms you're not using. Sort of like a zoned HVAC system, except it's zoned to every room you put in an indoor unit in. I have a couple of friends who have put this system in and it's really amazing, I like it quite a bit. The room you're in starts getting hot or cold right away too, which is great.

I put in something similar to the Mr. Slim. I went with LG:

http://www.pexsupply.com/LG-LMU369H...Outdoor-Unit?gclid=CIL5qonqm7kCFdGj4Aod9U8ADQ

I have one outdoor unit that services four indoor units. 1 on each level of the house. Cost me about $5500. I did all the install myself except for the refrigerant work, which I paid a buddy of mine $100 to do.

 

[Vdubchaos]

The scam is how much people pay to mitigate it. I did the slub slab depressurization myself for about $150. A contractor charges about $1300 for the same work. The sub-slab depressurization helps keep the humidity down in our basement, which was another reason I put it in.

Correct, I'm getting readings of 8 or so and was going to do it in case I had to sell the house etc.

I already have a fan, just haven't really gotten around to do the work (it's no big deal, just a hole/sealant/PVC piping/electrical).

Truth is, anytime you get ANYONE to do ANY work for you = SCAM

Entire Business model is a scam hehe

In general, $800-1300 is about the going rate for these mitigation systems. People gotta get rich man.

 

[Vdubchaos]

There isn't much new technology available for housing construction that hasn't been proven one way or another. Much of it isn't mainstream in the US because of our focus on cost per square foot. The vast majority of the houses built here are the worst houses that can legally be built, i.e. "built to code".

An air tight house can easily be made efficient and healthy by including the dead simple, inexpensive, and proven ERV. A high R value structure is pretty useless if there is high air infiltration. It does all have to work together and it is almost always a pay now or pay later type of trade off.

Not disagreeing with that

 

[Kaido]

When it comes to heating and cooling you have to look to Europe or Asia for great technology.

Furnace technology is pathetic compare to rest of the world.....it's also made to be very unreliable (expect your furnace to last 15-20 years....regardless what you pay).

I would also like a fireplace for backup, just in case of power loss/generator failure/electric issues/whatever. There's a nice page on fireplaces in tight homes here:

http://woodheat.org/fireplace-tight-house.html

 

[bignateyk]

Correct, I'm getting readings of 8 or so and was going to do it in case I had to sell the house etc.

I already have a fan, just haven't really gotten around to do the work (it's no big deal, just a hole/sealant/PVC piping/electrical).

Truth is, anytime you get ANYONE to do ANY work for you = SCAM

Entire Business model is a scam hehe

In general, $800-1300 is about the going rate for these mitigation systems. People gotta get rich man.

The hardest part of the install is digging out the suction pit underneath the 4" hole in the slab. It's a bitch getting 2 or 3 5 gallon buckets of compacted stone/clay out of a tiny little hole that you can't fit any tools through to help excavate it. I ended up buying a bulb auger to attach to my drill to help loosen the soil (That was after I wore my hands raw from trying to dig it out with my bare hands).

I have a feeling most contractors say fuck it, dig out like 3 inches of soil, and call it quits.

 

[Humpy]

Not disagreeing with that

Damn it! I was in the mood to argue about something trivial.

 

[vi edit]

Ah, neat! I've opted not to go with a basement or second story in my design. Basically a raised floor with some sort of skirt around it, no slab even. Whole thing is based off a cold-pressed steel moment frame design:

If basements are the "norm" for your area, I think you are seriously hurting any future ability to resell the place later on. Basements are cheap storage/expandable space and really take very little maintenance. Don't overthink things, especially if you claim this to be a "starter home".

 

[Vdubchaos]

This ICF/spray foam insulated home in Tennessee, the winner of a 2004 Concrete Excellence Award, used EnergyWise’s “systems approach” to achieving maximum heating and cooling efficiency. Although the home is a massive 13,524 square feet, electricity for the heating, cooling and hot water costs run about $5.50 per day or $166 per month.

a) where is the house located (geographically)
b) what energy source?

Just because they give you this marketing BS doesn't mean it can be accomplished easily or cheap.

If we are talking California.......sure. There really isn't much need for cooling or heating there. How about North east?

I can't imagine a 13k sq ft home located in Northeast or Canada that's using Oil to be $166 per month....no way in hell. No insulation or "air tightness" can EVER do that.

 

[Kaido]

I put in something similar to the Mr. Slim. I went with LG:

http://www.pexsupply.com/LG-LMU369H...Outdoor-Unit?gclid=CIL5qonqm7kCFdGj4Aod9U8ADQ

I have one outdoor unit that services four indoor units. 1 on each level of the house. Cost me about $5500. I did all the install myself except for the refrigerant work, which I paid a buddy of mine $100 to do.

Yeah, my buddy has the tools since he did his himself, wasn't too hard. How is the performance on yours feeding 4 units? My buddy did 1:1 since he upgraded over time as he remodeled each room, plus they have the new high heat system from negative temperatures, which is nice because it can get pretty cold here in New England sometimes.

Not really sure if I'd want to do a starter home or a regular home, depends on the job location I guess. There's so much you can do yourself now (well, easier anyway, not that you couldn't do it before) - ductless mini-splits, structured wiring, PEX (and oh how I love PEX haha), etc. Really nice to have more control over things, both in installation and in end-user usage. I think there's even a Mitsubishi HVAC app now for your phone, so you can change the temperature without even having to find the remote control hehe.

 

[Vdubchaos]

The hardest part of the install is digging out the suction pit underneath the 4" hole in the slab. It's a bitch getting 2 or 3 5 gallon buckets of compacted stone/clay out of a tiny little hole that you can't fit any tools through to help excavate it. I ended up buying a bulb auger to attach to my drill to help loosen the soil (That was after I wore my hands raw from trying to dig it out with my bare hands).

I have a feeling most contractors say fuck it, dig out like 3 inches of soil, and call it quits.

Correct

Above really depends on the age of the house too...

 

[bignateyk]

Yeah I wouldn't spend much money on a custom starter home. The only thing's that add value to a house are the ones that have visual appeal, especially to first time buyers who might be buying your home someday.

 

[yottabit]

Why not just make a monolithic dome?

 

[Kaido]

If basements are the "norm" for your area, I think you are seriously hurting any future ability to resell the place later on. Basements are cheap storage/expandable space and really take very little maintenance. Don't overthink things, especially if you claim this to be a "starter home".

Yes they are, and I detest them. I hate stairs and hate dealing with a leaky basement. And I know 2-story homes are more efficient for heating in the winter, but eh. I'd rather build it how I want and go from there. But yeah, you have a good point - so I'd have to decide on a starter house vs. a full house, depending on the job, depending on the location. Too many variables, so just in the research phase for right now :biggrin:

Can I just live in an RV instead?

 

[Vdubchaos]

If basements are the "norm" for your area, I think you are seriously hurting any future ability to resell the place later on. Basements are cheap storage/expandable space and really take very little maintenance. Don't overthink things, especially if you claim this to be a "starter home".

agreed

Less is more. Keep is simple and use proven building techniques.....

Sure there is materials and techniques out there that are better than others. The big question is "How much are you willing to pay extra for CERTAIN % of the benefit".

You really have to keep the perspective in mind. Always go with the best bang for the buck. Not too cheap to offset the cost in energy costs later down the road, but not too expensive to pay premium for little bit of a benefit.

Remember OP, bigger the home, more it will be on the taxes........more to build......more to maintain and clean etc.

Don't go chancing the Jones-es. Just build something that YOU WANT. WAY too many people customize their house and do BS to impress others.....in the end all that shit is worthless.

Not caring what others think will save you SO much money....