Anyone DIY solar?

[dave_the_nerd]

I see lots of people getting Solar in my area on the roof. It seems it would be expensive when you need to replace the shingles...

Remove solar panels.
Remove shingles.
Replace shingles.
Reinstall solar panels.

I don't think removing/reinstalling the solar panels is all that hard. Certainly not significant compared to replacing a roof.

 

[NetWareHead]

I have a rental property with a roof that is not shaded and has a southern facing orientation. Described as "pristine" by a solar energy company. The property will need a new roof in the next 5 years and I was thinking of putting solar panels or perhaps going with Tesla's solar shingles when this time comes.

I have a landlord electrical meter and panel that is independent from the tenants' electrical systems so I would certainly wire the solar setup into this electrical system. There is a light load on this electrical meter, a few smoke detectors, some common hallway lights and the house exterior lighting. The issue is that I am almost certain that I will make way more power than I am going to consume.

Is there a limit to how much power I can generate and be paid for? I dont want to install solar and find out I can only make so much profit off of the system due the the location's own limited power consumption which would be far outpaced by its generation ability.

I hear there is a new law which is being considered that will allow solar users to give or "send" excess generation that they cant use to another electrical customer. This would be perfect for me as we live in a property that has a flat roof and is shaded. The power I generate at my rental property theoretically be used to offset our power consumption at an entirely different property. Anyone know what this law is called so I can research this better?

 

[Darwin333]

I haven't seen a lot of answers here, so I guess I'll post what I've found. First, there's Solpad. If the iPhone popularized computers, Solpad, particularly Solpad Mobile, is the iPhone of solar panels. The only problems with it are it seems to be vaporware so far, and they don't mention a price. I can only hope it's priced like an iPhone.

If you really mean DIY, the only place I've found a separate grid-tied inverter is, oddly, for an exercise bicycle. I think it can just plug into the wall, but I'm not sure.

If you are talking about DIY as in actually build it yourself then that is a serious no-go on a grid-tied inverter. It must by UL certified to be connected to the grid and I'd wager that local code requires it to be UL certified to be connected to your homes electrical system.

 

[herm0016]

solpad is the next coolest cooler.

it is illegal and dangerous to reverse feed your electrical system and micro-inverters are not new or special.

I have built a few systems for charging batteries on my campers and they work well. we also have 4800 watts on our house with a grid tie inverter and net metered.

i usually get stuff from solarblvd.com

we re-roofed about 6 months ago, it cost about 3k to remove and reinstall the solar. total for the roof and solar was about 12k.

 

[Kaido]

I have a rental property with a roof that is not shaded and has a southern facing orientation. Described as "pristine" by a solar energy company. The property will need a new roof in the next 5 years and I was thinking of putting solar panels or perhaps going with Tesla's solar shingles when this time comes.

I have a landlord electrical meter and panel that is independent from the tenants' electrical systems so I would certainly wire the solar setup into this electrical system. There is a light load on this electrical meter, a few smoke detectors, some common hallway lights and the house exterior lighting. The issue is that I am almost certain that I will make way more power than I am going to consume.

Is there a limit to how much power I can generate and be paid for? I dont want to install solar and find out I can only make so much profit off of the system due the the location's own limited power consumption which would be far outpaced by its generation ability.

I hear there is a new law which is being considered that will allow solar users to give or "send" excess generation that they cant use to another electrical customer. This would be perfect for me as we live in a property that has a flat roof and is shaded. The power I generate at my rental property theoretically be used to offset our power consumption at an entirely different property. Anyone know what this law is called so I can research this better?

Start on page 33 for some intro material:

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/54570.pdf

Some places let you sell back solar to the grid, but at wholesale prices, so you're not making much. I'd imagine that as solar catches on, a lot of these incentives will disappear.

 

[Darwin333]

Good info. My wife and I are starting to plan for home ownership and I was really planning to investigate solar/wind. Admittedly, I am (was?) guilty of the ill-conceived notion that having solar would help charge batteries and make us more self sufficient, but really it seems like you suggest it's more economical to just run off solar when you can, and then use the grid when you can't rather than the hefty price of batteries?

Exactly, your solar panels will have a power production guarantee for 25 years and frankly there is nothing in them to break so they can work far longer than that. Batteries just add a huge and unnecessary cost to the system as well as a significant ongoing maintenance cost compared to the rest of the system. As I said, the idea (at least the smart one) is to save money year over year so that your solar system pays for itself and then starts actually making you money. I have been in the solar industry going on a decade now and I have NEVER, not once, seen a system with batteries capable of powering the house for any decent length of time that would ever pay for itself much less make a return on the investment.

 

[Kaido]

solpad is the next coolest cooler.

it is illegal and dangerous to reverse feed your electrical system and micro-inverters are not new or special.

I have built a few systems for charging batteries on my campers and they work well. we also have 4800 watts on our house with a grid tie inverter and net metered.

i usually get stuff from solarblvd.com

we re-roofed about 6 months ago, it cost about 3k to remove and reinstall the solar. total for the roof and solar was about 12k.

Does your 4800w system cover your daily needs?

 

[herm0016]

Does your 4800w system cover your daily needs?

we produce a bit more than we need in the summer and a bit less in the winter. we are paying the minimum for about 9 months per year. if we produce more than we use in a month, it is banked for the next month.

 

[Kaido]

we produce a bit more than we need in the summer and a bit less in the winter. we are paying the minimum for about 9 months per year. if we produce more than we use in a month, it is banked for the next month.

Nice! I just started power monitoring last week to see what I use (granted, everything is LED lighting, Energy Star appliances, etc.). Curious to see where I stand in a month.

 

[K1052]

Gates used a worse case scenario. Battery storage requirements vary by location. One can go days w/o sufficient sunshine for days in the NE or NW regions in the US.

Few people are saying that solar+storage should be used for total grid independence. It's a piece of the overall picture.

 

[Kaido]

Few people are saying that solar+storage should be used for total grid independence. It's a piece of the overall picture.

If it was cheap, it would be great. I would like to build a home someday & Tesla solar shingles & a Tesla PowerWall sounds like a great combination...when rolled into a new mortgage. But even if your panels last virtually forever now, the battery(s) will still need to be replaced periodically (maybe every decade?). Like a Tesla EV, it's a great idea, if your budget allows.

 

[Darwin333]

I have a rental property with a roof that is not shaded and has a southern facing orientation. Described as "pristine" by a solar energy company. The property will need a new roof in the next 5 years and I was thinking of putting solar panels or perhaps going with Tesla's solar shingles when this time comes.

I have a landlord electrical meter and panel that is independent from the tenants' electrical systems so I would certainly wire the solar setup into this electrical system. There is a light load on this electrical meter, a few smoke detectors, some common hallway lights and the house exterior lighting. The issue is that I am almost certain that I will make way more power than I am going to consume.

Is there a limit to how much power I can generate and be paid for? I dont want to install solar and find out I can only make so much profit off of the system due the the location's own limited power consumption which would be far outpaced by its generation ability.

I hear there is a new law which is being considered that will allow solar users to give or "send" excess generation that they cant use to another electrical customer. This would be perfect for me as we live in a property that has a flat roof and is shaded. The power I generate at my rental property theoretically be used to offset our power consumption at an entirely different property. Anyone know what this law is called so I can research this better?

I haven't heard of that law but I will see what I can dig up, the laws dealing with net metering and solar in general are state-based so if such a law is being considered it will likely be in only one state. As far as "profiting" from the electric company it's pretty much universally impossible. The way the net metering laws work is that you can offset your yearly power usage by selling power back to the electric company at the same price you pay for it. Once you exceed that you become a "power provider" and the electric company pays you what they pay their other large scale power providers which are VASTLY less than what they charge you. So if you pay $.12 KW/H once you become a power provider they will pay you $.03 KW/H. It's practically impossible to profit from selling power to the electric company above offsetting your yearly usage with residential/commercial solar. Check the incentives in your area, it may be profitable to connect it to your tenants and find a way to bill your tenants so that they save too.

 

[Darwin333]

Few people are saying that solar+storage should be used for total grid independence. It's a piece of the overall picture.

Regardless, it is universally cheaper to install a grid-tied system and get a natural gas generator for emergency power versus using batteries to store power.

 

[K1052]

If it was cheap, it would be great. I would like to build a home someday & Tesla solar shingles & a Tesla PowerWall sounds like a great combination...when rolled into a new mortgage. But even if your panels last virtually forever now, the battery(s) will still need to be replaced periodically (maybe every decade?). Like a Tesla EV, it's a great idea, if your budget allows.

Prices have fallen substantially in the past decade for both technologies and they continue to decline, so we'll see. If that keeps up I'm sure there will be even deeper penetration.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Regardless, it is universally cheaper to install a grid-tied system and get a natural gas generator for emergency power versus using batteries to store power.

I assumed the panels generate DC and you need an inverter to tie them back into the grid. I've got some decent rooftop for a system....about 1000 square feet at a 4/12 pitch....and then probably another 420 sq ft facing south that would get full sun in the afternoons. What kind of panel and equipment would I consider. I'm just curious what the investment and return could be.

 

[K1052]

Regardless, it is universally cheaper to install a grid-tied system and get a natural gas generator for emergency power versus using batteries to store power.

Assuming you have NG at the ready, yes at present. It's possible that battery storage will fall below alternatives in the not too distant future but I wouldn't like to speculate on how many years that will be. It still won't be appropriate for every use case but more probably. Utility scale storage is starting to pick up now and the costs, while still high, are less than anticipated compared to NG peaking capacity.

 

[Kaido]

Regardless, it is universally cheaper to install a grid-tied system and get a natural gas generator for emergency power versus using batteries to store power.

fwiw, I was quoted $16k for a whole-house NG generator vs. $15k for a pair of Tesla PowerWall V2's (14 kWh/ea). Downside is the batteries only last until they run out, whereas the permanently-connected generator with ATS can run indefinitely off natural gas from the city.

 

[Darwin333]

I assumed the panels generate DC and you need an inverter to tie them back into the grid. I've got some decent rooftop for a system....about 1000 square feet at a 4/12 pitch....and then probably another 420 sq ft facing south that would get full sun in the afternoons. What kind of panel and equipment would I consider. I'm just curious what the investment and return could be.

Actually due south is the absolute ideal way to face solar panels. Your energy production will slowly taper off the more east or west that you orientate them. And yes, you absolutely need an inverter to tie it into your home and the grid. The size of your system will dictate your inverter choices.

There are a myriad of panel choices, generally I'd suggest getting whatever is cheapest per watt unless you have specialized needs. I would need to see a layout with dimensions to give you any real idea of what you could put on your roof but you can get a fairly accurate design using Unirac's online tool here http://design.unirac.com/tool/project_info/solarmount_2/?pitched=true

This will give you a decent idea of what you can expect to save.
http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

 

[Darwin333]

fwiw, I was quoted $16k for a whole-house NG generator vs. $15k for a pair of Tesla PowerWall V2's (14 kWh/ea). Downside is the batteries only last until they run out, whereas the permanently-connected generator with ATS can run indefinitely off natural gas from the city.

That will last you roughly a day if you are an average electrical user with no additional power. A typical 5KW solar system won't fully charge that in a day during August and would only halfway charge during January it in my area and we have pretty good sun hours. Still, I hadn't realized that the powerwalls have gotten that cheap, truly awesome. If you had a very large solar system and low enough consumption that might actually be viable.

 

[Kaido]

That will last you roughly a day if you are an average electrical user with no additional power. A typical 5KW solar system won't fully charge that in a day during August and would only halfway charge during January it in my area and we have pretty good sun hours. Still, I hadn't realized that the powerwalls have gotten that cheap, truly awesome. If you had a very large solar system and low enough consumption that might actually be viable.

Yeah the new ones are very nice, they are outdoor-friendly (rain & snow are OK), kid-friendly (won't get zapped), can be wall-mounted, and can be stacked 10 high for floor mounting. Really great design. Equipment price is $6,200 for a single 14kWh gen2 battery with the required support hardware; they guesstimate installation ranges from $800 to $2,000, plus tax and permit fees, depending on your area. If I ever get to build & can just roll everything up in the mortgage, I'd definitely cover the entire roof with Tesla tiles, do a couple batteries, a whole-house generator, a grid-tie, and a Synaps6 to tie them all together:

http://www.milbankworks.com/synap6.aspx

I just installed a TED Spyder system on my mains & individual circuits to do data collection on power consumption. Great little rig with a 10-year data recorder & web server onboard, super easy to setup:

http://www.theenergydetective.com/tedprohome.html

 

[Ajay]

Few people are saying that solar+storage should be used for total grid independence. It's a piece of the overall picture.

Agreed.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Reverse feeding is a whole different beast than normal solar. With reverse feeding the hydro company has to be involved so they setup a different type of meter/system, your system has to be fully inspected and approved etc, and your area has to actually offer feed-in. As far as I know here they don't. In southern Ontario they do but not here in the north. We produce too much power already and it all gets given to the states at a loss. It's a huge corrupt system.

If you go with a normal system with batteries you are independent (or partially) from the grid. You can use the grid to keep the batteries at a certain charge but you won't be feeding back. There is no danger here as if the power goes out your system just keeps working like a UPS, but none of your power is going back in the grid. Provided yo don't do something stupid, that is.

My ideal system would be something like this:

Solar panels -> charge controller -> batteries -> whole house redundant 120/240v inverter that can do like 20kw+ -> Transfer switch -> main electrical panel

Then you have:

Hydro in -> Splitter. The splitter would basically be a box that splits the feed, it could be a panel. One feed would go to a bank of rectifiers that will top up your batteries if solar is not providing enough, the other feed would go to the transfer switch. The transfer switch would allow you to completely isolate the solar system and just run your house straight off hydro. In normal cases you would not do this but it would be nice to have if your system fails.

The rectifiers would be set to like 48 volts, while the charge controller would be set to 54 volts. (assuming a 48v nominal system). That way when solar is providing power it would be charging the batteries, and if solar is not providing enough the rectifiers would take on the load.

Another option is replace hydro with a generator, then you go fully off grid. The generator would kick on if batteries get below 48v. In that case you'd set the rectifiers to like 54 volts. Maybe even 55. Then it would run for a set time, like 2-3 hours, then disconnect and then measure voltage and see if it needs to connect again. You could pretty much use Arduino to control all that.

The issue as mentioned in this thread is lot of places are going to start making solar illegal. Can't allow the hydro companies to have competition!

 

[Ajay]

The issue as mentioned in this thread is lot of places are going to start making solar illegal. Can't allow the hydro companies to have competition!

Absolutely idiotic. I should check with a friend who works for a power company, but I think this could be avoided with a more efficient grid (wider possible distribution area).

 

[Red Squirrel]

Absolutely idiotic. I should check with a friend who works for a power company, but I think this could be avoided with a more efficient grid (wider possible distribution area).

The issue is the hydro companies cry to the government, and the government only listens to big corporations, so they get their way, and the people lose. Same with electric cars, once they actually do start to take off the government is just going to put a stop to it just like they did when the original GM electric car came out. Only takes a couple lithium ion battery fires and they'll use that as an excuse. These days it only takes a few incidents for a whole product line, hobby etc to be destroyed. It's ridiculous.

The states tend to be first when it come sot this kind of legislation, then Canada follows. I just hope that existing installs would be grandfathered because that would be ridiculous to spend that money and be ordered to remove it. Heck it's already illegal to go off grid in lot of places, so it's not that far off already from them just saying that the panels themselves are illegal.

 

[Ajay]

Getting a bit OT, but...

@Red Squirrel - yeah, unencumbered capitalism is the best, except when it comes to corporate welfare