Anyone DIY solar?

[desura]

im thinking it might be an interesting project to start small, like a 1kw array in the backyard, and then gradually add on to it. Only thing that is scary is the electrical part of it. Also, during blackouts a solar house is required to cut itself off from the grid so that utility workers don't get shocked?

 

[Cappuccino]

u nerd

 

[drinkmorejava]

Don't have one, but yes, they disconnect when there is a blackout. You might be looking for a grid-tie inverter charger. Combined systems like this allow battery operation off the grid. They have only been around for a few years, but they actually provide some real use other than just lowering your electricity bill.

From everything I've heard the electrical isn't actually bad. A lot of inverters like to say they're so simple that end users can install them. Still don't know if I would trust myself.

 

[local]

I have thought about doing something like this over the years but figured I would start off with a little wind power first, seems like it is always windy here. Funding is the major concern for me I'm not worried about electrical, anyone who comes near it probably should though.

 

[shortylickens]

u nerd

NO U!

 

[Red Squirrel]

I've been pondering it for a while, but we don't really get much sun here, ex: not enough to go off grid. The days are too short. It would work great in summer as the days are very long, but for rest of year not so much. Taking snow off would be a lot of work too. From a money standpoint, the only way to save is to go off grid, as the hydro bill is expensive because of all the fixed costs not the usage. Can sell back to grid but that's hit and miss, they don't have that program everywhere.

I have room for about 3kw worth of panels on my roof, I measured and then checked dimensions of panels and then did a basic cad layout. 3kw would not quite be enough to go off grid but it would run a lot such as my server room. What I'd probably do is have it power a separate system that has a bunch of stuff wired into it, then that system would also be connected to hydro, so when the battery voltage is low it would fire up the rectifiers to top them up. It would also act as a UPS. That's another option too, have it power the whole house, but also have a separate set of rectifiers. So it's a whole house UPS + solar. In a black out situation you could more or less continue to power everything, just need to conserve more at night when sun is down. When you think about it, as far as big loads go, they are things that don't run for a long time. Microwave, oven, dishwasher, dryer, washer etc. So if you run those in the day when sun is out then let the batteries charge. Could do one load of laundry per day too, different things you could do differently.

If I had a large property I'd love to just do a big ground mount system, if you make it big enough and have enough batteries then it would be viable to just go off grid.

I'll be building a shed this summer, so I may eventually put solar panels on it and have a small system in the shed. Kinda to test the waters. Also get an idea of how much of a pain it is to take snow off, maybe it comes off really easily and slides off, or maybe not. Or maybe it actually does not stick to it at all and they don't get covered as much as I think. Would be a good way to test, with a smaller system. If anything it would give me an outlet to plug the weed whacker in the summer.

Pure sine Inverters in the kw range get expensive though and for a decent setup you want that, even if the solar panels are not in the kw's it's nice to be able to draw a big load from the batteries, just need to be aware that you can't draw such a load for too long. But yeah I will probably build out a small system for my shed when I build it, it will power lights, and I'll have a couple outlets inside and out for various loads. I'll probably make it a 12v system, though a 48v system is tempting, but overkill. 12v does have the advantage that a lot of stuff will run directly on that.

Whatever you do though you want some kind of relay/cutoff switch if the batteries get too low, then you want it to kick back on when solar panels produce again. Need to design that in your system. Some charge controllers may have it built in.

 

[Darwin333]

im thinking it might be an interesting project to start small, like a 1kw array in the backyard, and then gradually add on to it. Only thing that is scary is the electrical part of it. Also, during blackouts a solar house is required to cut itself off from the grid so that utility workers don't get shocked?

Any commercial inverter you buy will have that cutoff built into it. The inverter must "see" proper grid voltage to turn on and are required to automatically cut off when grid voltage isn't present. I would highly suggest that you hire an electrician to hook up your inverter and it is probably required by your local building code. If you are going to expand the system you might want to consider micro-inverters which you can install yourself, they just plug into the panels themselves, and you would have an electrician install a panel that they feed into.

 

[Darwin333]

I've been pondering it for a while, but we don't really get much sun here, ex: not enough to go off grid. The days are too short. It would work great in summer as the days are very long, but for rest of year not so much. Taking snow off would be a lot of work too. From a money standpoint, the only way to save is to go off grid, as the hydro bill is expensive because of all the fixed costs not the usage. Can sell back to grid but that's hit and miss, they don't have that program everywhere.

While I can't speak for your specific utility companies fees, it's almost never economical to go off-grid if you already have grid power. You are way better off using the grid as your "backup battery" and buying a nat-gas generator for blackouts. I am a solar expert and I have not once seen a single situation where it was economical to go off-grid versus a grid-tied system except for things like camps that didn't have access to the grid or would have to pay a ton to get them to run power lines to them. People really need to get out of the mindset that solar is intended to get you off the grid or is anything other than an investment, adding batteries to the system makes it a really really bad investment.

And I'm pretty sure that all states have a net-metering program that basically allows you to sell back to the grid to offset your usage. You usually produce most of your power while you are at work and aren't using much so that power goes into the grid and your meter literally spins backward (well, depending on the meter). So if you use a total of 1,000KW/H in a month and you produced 800KW/H you only get charged for 200KW/H regardless if you used the power you generated or not. If you have time of use billing you can save even more since they usually charge more for power during the time that your system is producing it. Now actually profiting from selling power because you produce more than you use on a yearly basis is another thing altogether and not something that you really want to get into. The idea is to try and come as close as you can to offsetting your bill which is frankly almost impossible for most people on its own.

 

[Darwin333]

Don't have one, but yes, they disconnect when there is a blackout. You might be looking for a grid-tie inverter charger. Combined systems like this allow battery operation off the grid. They have only been around for a few years, but they actually provide some real use other than just lowering your electricity bill.

From everything I've heard the electrical isn't actually bad. A lot of inverters like to say they're so simple that end users can install them. Still don't know if I would trust myself.

Combined systems have been around for as long as grid-tied systems have, we just have better inverters now that have integrated charge controllers for your batteries.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

 

[desura]

So the inverter is kind of a problem...

Umm, why hasn't anyone figured out a system that runs D.C. Power parallel to ac from the grid, and then run stuff like computers off it? It is pretty wasteful isn't it to convert from solar D.C. To a.c. In the inverter back to D.C. For the laptop.

 

[stormkroe]

So the inverter is kind of a problem...

Umm, why hasn't anyone figured out a system that runs D.C. Power parallel to ac from the grid, and then run stuff like computers off it? It is pretty wasteful isn't it to convert from solar D.C. To a.c. In the inverter back to D.C. For the laptop.

DC doesn't travel well, and doesn't transform. The amount of power in your house that goes through those multiple rectified/inverted steps is minute. DIY renewable should mainly be supplemental, bi directional metering gives you the savings without ridiculous battery costs and REAL efficiency loss.

 

[Ken g6]

I haven't seen a lot of answers here, so I guess I'll post what I've found. First, there's Solpad. If the iPhone popularized computers, Solpad, particularly Solpad Mobile, is the iPhone of solar panels. The only problems with it are it seems to be vaporware so far, and they don't mention a price. I can only hope it's priced like an iPhone.

If you really mean DIY, the only place I've found a separate grid-tied inverter is, oddly, for an exercise bicycle. I think it can just plug into the wall, but I'm not sure.

 

[dmcowen674]

Many states have made Solar Power illegal, check your state before you go to jail.

 

[shortylickens]

Many states have made Solar Power illegal, check your state before you go to jail.

what was their argument for banning?

 

[pcgeek11]

I see lots of people getting Solar in my area on the roof. It seems it would be expensive when you need to replace the shingles...

Remove solar panels.
Remove shingles.
Replace shingles.
Reinstall solar panels.

 

[dmcowen674]

what was their argument for banning?

Protecting the profits of Utility Companies. Missouri is about to add the the list of states banning Solar

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/mo-hb340-anti-solar-bill.2504491/

 

[K1052]

I see lots of people getting Solar in my area on the roof. It seems it would be expensive when you need to replace the shingles...

Remove solar panels.
Remove shingles.
Replace shingles.
Reinstall solar panels.

If done around the same time both components have about the same expected lifespan. Some people are holding off getting solar until they get their roof re-done in a few years.

 

[TheVrolok]

While I can't speak for your specific utility companies fees, it's almost never economical to go off-grid if you already have grid power. You are way better off using the grid as your "backup battery" and buying a nat-gas generator for blackouts. I am a solar expert and I have not once seen a single situation where it was economical to go off-grid versus a grid-tied system except for things like camps that didn't have access to the grid or would have to pay a ton to get them to run power lines to them. People really need to get out of the mindset that solar is intended to get you off the grid or is anything other than an investment, adding batteries to the system makes it a really really bad investment.

And I'm pretty sure that all states have a net-metering program that basically allows you to sell back to the grid to offset your usage. You usually produce most of your power while you are at work and aren't using much so that power goes into the grid and your meter literally spins backward (well, depending on the meter). So if you use a total of 1,000KW/H in a month and you produced 800KW/H you only get charged for 200KW/H regardless if you used the power you generated or not. If you have time of use billing you can save even more since they usually charge more for power during the time that your system is producing it. Now actually profiting from selling power because you produce more than you use on a yearly basis is another thing altogether and not something that you really want to get into. The idea is to try and come as close as you can to offsetting your bill which is frankly almost impossible for most people on its own.

Good info. My wife and I are starting to plan for home ownership and I was really planning to investigate solar/wind. Admittedly, I am (was?) guilty of the ill-conceived notion that having solar would help charge batteries and make us more self sufficient, but really it seems like you suggest it's more economical to just run off solar when you can, and then use the grid when you can't rather than the hefty price of batteries?

 

[Ajay]

Interesting perspective on storing energy by Bill Gates: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Energy/It-Is-Surprisingly-Hard-to-Store-Energy

The interesting part is how the amortization of battery costs radically increases the cost of using Solar w/storage.

 

[K1052]

Interesting perspective on storing energy by Bill Gates: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Energy/It-Is-Surprisingly-Hard-to-Store-Energy

The interesting part is how the amortization of battery costs radically increases the cost of using Solar w/storage.

Cell cost is already below what he used as his assumption and continues to fall. Also, the idea that you'll size a battery for a week's worth of storage is nuts. Batteries will end up smoothing out the daily peaks in production and demand. We'll still need the grid to move power from where you have it to where you need it through high capacity HVDC connections.

 

[desura]

Yeah, I'm getting a bit more granular now. So it looks like you can just buy solar cells direct from China for pretty cheap and then solder them yourself into a board.

Arduino I wonder if you could make that into any sort of solar controller.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I was researching Solar as a heat source a few years back. The problem is converting solar energy to electricity (DC), then either converting DC to AC and heating water is waaaayyy inefficient. It's more efficient to use evacuated tubes to heat water directly in a loop and pump that into a storage tank that has a heat exchanger. I read a warning though that an array of evacuated tubes can actually generate enough heat for the water/liquid to reach temps upwards of 450 degrees if you aren't pushing enough volume through the system (small loop). A guy set up an array and used pex.....he had a pipe blowout because the pex melted.

I was pretty serious about investing in some equipment, but the prices were still too high when I was looking. I'll probably hold out another few years, but have the bones to set this up for radiant heat in my garage....I already have 4 pex circuits in my poured slab...I'm just waiting to get the heat source figured out.

 

[Kaido]

Good info. My wife and I are starting to plan for home ownership and I was really planning to investigate solar/wind. Admittedly, I am (was?) guilty of the ill-conceived notion that having solar would help charge batteries and make us more self sufficient, but really it seems like you suggest it's more economical to just run off solar when you can, and then use the grid when you can't rather than the hefty price of batteries?

For a full-blown system, solar needs to be more of a personal goal than an economical goal. You need solar panels, batteries, supporting hardware, and labor for installation. Prices are coming down, but they're still not cheap. For example, one 14 kWh Powerwall battery is approximately $7,500 installed. And you may need two or three, depending on your home's energy requirements. No word on Tesla's solar shingles pricing yet, but if you hit up Costco, you can get a 5,830-watt grid-tied solar system for only $10k:

https://www.costco.com/Grape-Solar-5830-Watt-Grid-Tied-Solar-Kit.product.100242525.html

Generate Between 310kWh and 723kWh of Electricity Per Month, Includes 22 Polycrystalline Solar Panels, SolarEdge 5000 Inverter with Power Optimizers, Roof-top Mounting System

That may sound like a lot of money, but that kit has dropped $3,000 just recently, so prices are definitely coming down. Big-picture, you have to think about what goals you want to achieve...do you want to be 100% independent? Then you'll need enough solar to cover your daily needs, plus battery storage for use at night, and possibly a turbine or a natural-gas generator for backup to cover for rainy days. Then you'll need to make sure your roof has enough solar coverage to generate sufficient power to cover your needs, or else rig up panels on stilts in your backyard, etc., etc. etc. It's certainly doable, but the price does add up.

There are companies out there that lease the panels to you & handle installation for a subsidized costs, and for some people, that does make a certain amount of financial sense. Unfortunately, it's not very cut & dry at the moment, primarily due to the pricing of the various equipment packages. That Costco solar kit with a PowerWall & installation will probably run you $20,000 up-front. If you have a $300-a-month power bill, then it could essentially pay for itself in 5 or 6 years. Lots of math to be done, solar coverage to be figured out, etc.

 

[Ajay]

Cell cost is already below what he used as his assumption and continues to fall. Also, the idea that you'll size a battery for a week's worth of storage is nuts. Batteries will end up smoothing out the daily peaks in production and demand. We'll still need the grid to move power from where you have it to where you need it through high capacity HVDC connections.

Gates used a worse case scenario. Battery storage requirements vary by location. One can go days w/o sufficient sunshine for days in the NE or NW regions in the US.