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Anybody ever went fullbore into Linux and then went back to Windows?
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AlabamaCajun
Member
I've was on a Linux variant (Amiga) back in the 80s, worked with Unix until 91, got dragged (and kicking) onto PCs and Dos then Windows. Haveing been disgusted with MS for years, Linux has been expanding at a tremendous rate. I've been developing on Windows since 1998 (Dos 32 before that). I now primarly develop SW for Win 2000/XP and Mac but I have FC3 and FC4 which will become my main hosting systems. I will start soon porting development to Linux as well as continue to support WIndoz and Mac.
Ah, but let's really look at security and the effects of switching, especially on the global attack profile presented by each OS.
Let's assume that our test subject is a model end user; that is, he isn't going to fall for stupid social engineering tricks, but the more esoteric aspects of computer security are above him, so his susceptability to viruses is low but random. He has been using Windows for years, but he decides to try out Linux. Suddenly, he is now a member of a relatively unhunted group. The attack profile he presents, as an individual, is extremely low after his switch; therefore, security-wise, he benefits greatly in the short run by switching. (For the time being, discount any alleged inherent security advantage.)
But what effects have his switching had globally? Since we can add one to the count of Linux machines and subtract one from the count of Windows machines, overall the attack surfaces presented have slightly grown and shrunk, respectively. Repeat this several times. All of a sudden, there are many fewer Windows users to propogate any given malware. The overall security for Windows users has somewhat increased, and the overall security for Linux has somewhat decreased. But, from the point of view of our test subject, he has still come out ahead. Yes, there will be more attempts made to compromise general Linux security than before, but up until the Linux total and the Windows total have completely switched places from t = 0, our mentioned user still comes out ahead in terms of security on the average. And if there ever comes a time that Linux attains >90% desktop usage, then something truly bizarro will have happened.
So, on the average, from a security POV, the assertion that switching your OS will not affect your security in the long run is very likely incorrect. In fact, switching up to the point of equal proportions will improve security globally, even if by just a little for some groups.
True, whatever you're accustomed to is easier to use. For you and most people, that's Microsoft Windows. For me, it's UNIX, as I used UNIX before I ever tried MS Windows.
Claiming that whatever you're accustomed to using is easier for everybody is a common fallacy, along the lines of an American claiming that English is easy because they learned it as a child. English is not an intuitive language, no matter how easy it may seem to most people on this forum.
Likewise, MS Windows is not an intuitive operating system. Even GUIs in general aren't intuitive. There have been some interesting studies showing that people who have never been exposed to a computer before find command line interfaces easier than GUIs.
I think most of the difficulty is the issue of many people being accustomed to MS Windows and the common issue of having to do your own OS install to get Linux (they'd have the same issues if they had to install MS Windows), but normal people do fine with Linux if it's pre-installed.
The average Joe doesn't open his PC case or know what a driver is. Average users will install printers, monitors, and such, but there aren't many driver issues there.
Power users will tend to have problems with driver support for bleeding edge or uncommon hardware, and they're also more likely to play computer games beyond common stuff like Solitaire and Tetris, and I don't expect software availability will change much.
How did you damage your installation? In the old days of Slackware and Redhat before UP2Date/Yum, I was often frustrated by having to manually figure out a complex dependency tree, but the great thing about Linux packaging systems is that they prevent you from damaging your OS installation by not permitting you to install over existing software and by allowing you to really un-install every bit of a software package.
On MS Windows, DLL Hell is a major PITA as software packages will install their files over files belonging to other software, breaking your older software, and un-installs frequently leave behind install fragments that cause you trouble later. MS Windows XP is better with these issues though they still exist, but if we acknowledge that, we must acknowledge that modern Linux systems have fixed the dependency hell issue.
No, but I disagree with on what some of the reasons are. The main reason isn't that Linux isn't easy to maintain, because it's easier to maintain than MS Windows, and it isn't even that Linux isn't easier to use. Ease of use is debatable, but I'll skip the Linux vs MS Windows usability debate and note most people agree that MacOS is easier to use than MS Windows, yet there are far fewer MacOS installs than MS Windows installs.
Linux wasn't around when Microsoft began its OS domination, so we can't look at the initial contest as there wasn't one. What we can look at is why MS continues to be dominant, and there we see that the main reason is the prior existence of MS dominance in several forms:
1. People are accustomed to using MS Windows.
2. More software is available for MS Windows because it's more common.
3. For the same reason, more hardware drivers are available.
However, that doesn't mean that Microsoft will dominate computers forever. It's common for young people to equate computer and PC, but let's take a broader perspective and look at the history of computers. No mainframe maker was a successful minicomputer manufacturer. Likewise, no minicomputer vendor was a successful PC vendor.
While we'll likely have PCs for a long time, as we still have mainframes today, there's no reason to believe that the PC era will last forever. PCs are complex to maintain and use, as this thread has illustrated, and security issues are making it more obvious that average users don't have the ability to be their own system administrators, even on a commodity OS.
I don't know what the next type of common computer will be, but it will be smaller and less powerful initially than PCs, as the PC was compared to the minicomputer, and there will be a good chance that the vendors that dominated the PC era will not fare as well int he post PC era.
I did, with the last rev of red hat before it went to fedora. I think it was rh9.2 or something like that... not sure if im getting it confused with mandrake or not... tried so many distros....
It was ok. I dont like rpm. I like apt get. Its alot easier and alot more manageable plus the programs seems to just be there... and just work. I had so many problems with rpms and compatibility and stuff i just deleted it and went back to xp.
Im thinkin of dual bootin again over to kubuntu... but who knows... im probably just bored.
It was ok. I dont like rpm. I like apt get. Its alot easier and alot more manageable plus the programs seems to just be there... and just work. I had so many problems with rpms and compatibility and stuff i just deleted it and went back to xp.
Im thinkin of dual bootin again over to kubuntu... but who knows... im probably just bored.
The "open source" equivelents are OpenGL, LibSDL, OpenAL, and others. All of them are quite commonly used in indie games and smaller game makers. Most of the major ones just use whatever their legacy code base supports or whatever the engine they are licensing supports.
Most of that doesn't realy matter though. Big-name games like Ut2004 run just fine using LibSDL natively in linux. Most of the porting was done by one person. Games like FarCry can run either in DirectX or OpenGL. The actual meat and potatoes of the game is often very independent from whatever low-level rendering method they choose.
If your programming for Windows you generally want to aim for DirectX. Everything else is spotty at best, even OpenGL, because MS controls the OS and makes sure that DirectX (and related things) are going to be the easiest and the best to program. You get to do things like that when your in complete control over a platform.
And anyways most new games are built from older games (for instance Valve still licenses Quake1 code from ID for their HalfLife 2-based games) and open source things like LibSDL don't have the history and wide use that DirectX enjoys.
And it's pretty close to a non-issue for many games anyways. Most popular ones (with some exceptions) weither or not they are OpenGL or LibSDL or Glut or DirectX or whatever run in Linux just fine. Linux, after all, has it's own native Win32 API and DirectX thru free software Wine and the commercial software Cedega. If you go to Linux gaming websites you'll have many people using HalfLife 2 or other major DirectX games in Linux. (Not that I like Halflife 2, I think that Vavle's Steam is retched.)
For indie game makers using LibSDL over DirectX seems to be more and more common. Besides API choices here are a veriaty of no-cost and low-cost Gaming Engines that are very crossplatform. For instance Ogre3d (which will run on DirectX if you want) or Crystal Space. And there are dozens others. Now these are relatively new-comers to the scene. But there are dozens of them and a handfull are actually maturing and being used for commercial and non-commercial games.
It's more to do with market share then anything else at this moment in time.
Game designers won't realy start supporting Linux until Gamers start using Linux in respectable numbers. Gamers won't use Linux until there are respectable numbers of games. Right now some publishers ignore Linux (like EA games, for instance), others only port a handfull of games (like Atari), others are content to work with Cedega to make games work decently in Linux (like The Sims game makers).
I'm like a lot of other guys. I flirt with Linux, usually some big distro like RH or Mandrake.
I wait a few releases so it's suffeciently new and different and hope whatever problem stoped me on last distro has gone away. And usually the problem has, and another takes it's place. I installed Mandrake 10 I think it was recently, stuff worked well overall, there were not twelve compression programs and eight media players, etc, etc, least not bad as it used to be. I was able to adjust my refresh rate and rez with the mouse(which even recent redhat's I could not do in, which was absolutly STUPID IMO) I don't believe it saw my external NTFS 200gig USB drive, have not tried firewire, which is a quick anoyance because ALL my stuff is on that drive. Otherwise it worked really well. Granted I have old hardware, celly 500, 256meg, 440LX. I'll also note that compared to Win2K, even with all the visual crap turned off I could find, it's still SLOWWW compared to 2K. Same on my laptop of roughly the same specs. XP would probibly drap some, but 2K is downright quick if you keep an eye on mem usage. That's another thing, clean booted the same comp with no programs, Mandrake used WAY more memory, before even starting to use any apps. I'm griping, sorry.
I figure another ten years and someone will make a real everyday everyone desktop linux. Figure some of that time for hardware manufacturers to get there collective crap together. This is MS isnt going to be doing nothing, and lord knows Apple isn't. MacOS is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen on a PC, simple, quick, solid, and the hardware is just very nearly art(reguardless of the CPU). And no I've never owned one, but one day.
For the record, I miss BeOs. It ran rings around anything other than Warp4 on my old Unisys dual p2/333, rings. It reminds me of a Mac somehow, damn shame it went the way it did.
I wait a few releases so it's suffeciently new and different and hope whatever problem stoped me on last distro has gone away. And usually the problem has, and another takes it's place. I installed Mandrake 10 I think it was recently, stuff worked well overall, there were not twelve compression programs and eight media players, etc, etc, least not bad as it used to be. I was able to adjust my refresh rate and rez with the mouse(which even recent redhat's I could not do in, which was absolutly STUPID IMO) I don't believe it saw my external NTFS 200gig USB drive, have not tried firewire, which is a quick anoyance because ALL my stuff is on that drive. Otherwise it worked really well. Granted I have old hardware, celly 500, 256meg, 440LX. I'll also note that compared to Win2K, even with all the visual crap turned off I could find, it's still SLOWWW compared to 2K. Same on my laptop of roughly the same specs. XP would probibly drap some, but 2K is downright quick if you keep an eye on mem usage. That's another thing, clean booted the same comp with no programs, Mandrake used WAY more memory, before even starting to use any apps. I'm griping, sorry.
I figure another ten years and someone will make a real everyday everyone desktop linux. Figure some of that time for hardware manufacturers to get there collective crap together. This is MS isnt going to be doing nothing, and lord knows Apple isn't. MacOS is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen on a PC, simple, quick, solid, and the hardware is just very nearly art(reguardless of the CPU). And no I've never owned one, but one day.
For the record, I miss BeOs. It ran rings around anything other than Warp4 on my old Unisys dual p2/333, rings. It reminds me of a Mac somehow, damn shame it went the way it did.
i'm not acnowledging anything yet...
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Originally posted by: bersl2
Exactly what is it telling you is missing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well followed thier link to freshrpm.org and tried there here is the output:
[root@epsilon dan]# yum localinstall videolan-client-0.8.1-2.1.fc3.fr.i386.rpm
Setting up Local Package Process
Examining videolan-client-0.8.1-2.1.fc3.fr.i386.rpm: videolan-client - 0.8.1-2.1 .fc3.fr.i386
Marking videolan-client-0.8.1-2.1.fc3.fr.i386.rpm to be installed
Resolving Dependencies
--> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait.
---> Package videolan-client.i386 0:0.8.1-2.1.fc3.fr set to be updated
--> Running transaction check
Setting up Repos
base 100% |=========================| 1.1 kB 00:00
updates-released 100% |=========================| 951 B 00:00
Reading repository metadata in from local files
base : ################################################## 2622/2622
primary.xml.gz 100% |=========================| 340 kB 03:13
MD Read : ################################################## 879/879
updates-re: ################################################## 879/879
--> Processing Dependency: libaa.so.1 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libdvbpsi.so.3 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: liblirc_client.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libfaad.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libwx_gtk-2.4.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libxosd.so.2 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libmpeg2.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: liba52.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libdvdread.so.3 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libfribidi.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libmad.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libwx_gtk-2.4.so.0(WXGTK_2.4) for package: videolan-c lient
--> Processing Dependency: libid3tag.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Restarting Dependency Resolution with new changes.
--> Populating transaction set with selected packages. Please wait.
---> Package fribidi.i386 0:0.10.4-6 set to be updated
--> Running transaction check
--> Processing Dependency: libaa.so.1 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libdvbpsi.so.3 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: liblirc_client.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libfaad.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libwx_gtk-2.4.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libxosd.so.2 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libmpeg2.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: liba52.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libid3tag.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libmad.so.0 for package: videolan-client
--> Processing Dependency: libwx_gtk-2.4.so.0(WXGTK_2.4) for package: videolan-c lient
--> Processing Dependency: libdvdread.so.3 for package: videolan-client
--> Finished Dependency Resolution
Error: Missing Dependency: libaa.so.1 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libdvbpsi.so.3 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: liblirc_client.so.0 is needed by package videolan-cli ent
Error: Missing Dependency: libfaad.so.0 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libwx_gtk-2.4.so.0 is needed by package videolan-clie nt
Error: Missing Dependency: libxosd.so.2 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libmpeg2.so.0 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: liba52.so.0 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libdvdread.so.3 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libmad.so.0 is needed by package videolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libwx_gtk-2.4.so.0(WXGTK_2.4) is needed by package vi deolan-client
Error: Missing Dependency: libid3tag.so.0 is needed by package videolan-client
[root@epsilon dan]#
-------------------------
How do I set my laser printer to stun?
Nothinman
Elite Member
Sure, it doesn't work if you work around the system. You're trying to install a local RPM that you downloaded from god knows where and you wonder why there might be problems? Why don't you yell about cars being too complicated because you need a specific key to start yours too?
If VLC isn't in the base or updates-released repositories for FC3 (that's what it looks like you're using) then why would you imagine that all of it's dependencies would be?
Generally, when you can, you don't install individual packages like that. You use a package managing program such as yum or apt-get to do it for you.
Now if that is broken, then that's a different thing.
For Fedora Core I prefer to use 3rd party repositories. In fedora you have to be carefull about what repositories you mix.. Fedora doesn't play well with others, apparently. I use offical Fedora 'Core' packages and then use the compatability tested Dag/Freshrpms/etc etc rather then use the Fedora.us or livna.org repositories.
Read this: http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#D
Dag Weiers has good directions on how to add his repository to your Yum install and feel free to use other places that he recommends. He uses http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#D
Setting up Yum to use this is described at:
http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#B4
Be sure to read the entire FAQ so that you don't accidently miss something important.
That way once you set it up, then all you would have to do to install vlc would be something like:
(depending on the package name, I am guessing vlc, but there are search options to help you)
yum install vlc
No need to download individual packages for most of your applications. Applications and your OS are easily updated and you get access to timely bugfixes and improvements in functionality.
All this works best, though, when you setup a fresh OS with these repositories for Fedora. If you have gone around and installed rpms from this place and that place it may take extra work on your part to manually go in and uninstall and install various packages to make things function smoothly in a update.
These are the type of distros I prefer, ones with a large install base, have good packaging tools, and have package maintainers that work with each other to maintain compatability.
These include: Fedora, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, but not in nessicarially in that order. I find that Gentoo compile everything approach takes to much time. Fedora doesn't have the tested and massive package support that Debian and Ubuntu has. Personally I prefer Debian with Ubuntu coming in second.
Other popular distros, such as the Redhat ES clones, Suse, Mandrake, and others I don't mess around with much. I'd use Suse or Redhat ES for businesses because of the support options, and Redhat for it's support of propriatory software and certification proccesses. But for home use I find having good package manangement tools combined with large number of aviable packages to be very attractive in a OS. (Debian/Ubuntu currently has over 16000 different programs and software aviable to it's end users, gigs and gigs of software)
Now if that is broken, then that's a different thing.
For Fedora Core I prefer to use 3rd party repositories. In fedora you have to be carefull about what repositories you mix.. Fedora doesn't play well with others, apparently. I use offical Fedora 'Core' packages and then use the compatability tested Dag/Freshrpms/etc etc rather then use the Fedora.us or livna.org repositories.
Read this: http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#D
Dag Weiers has good directions on how to add his repository to your Yum install and feel free to use other places that he recommends. He uses http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#D
Setting up Yum to use this is described at:
http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#B4
Be sure to read the entire FAQ so that you don't accidently miss something important.
That way once you set it up, then all you would have to do to install vlc would be something like:
(depending on the package name, I am guessing vlc, but there are search options to help you)
yum install vlc
No need to download individual packages for most of your applications. Applications and your OS are easily updated and you get access to timely bugfixes and improvements in functionality.
All this works best, though, when you setup a fresh OS with these repositories for Fedora. If you have gone around and installed rpms from this place and that place it may take extra work on your part to manually go in and uninstall and install various packages to make things function smoothly in a update.
These are the type of distros I prefer, ones with a large install base, have good packaging tools, and have package maintainers that work with each other to maintain compatability.
These include: Fedora, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Debian, but not in nessicarially in that order. I find that Gentoo compile everything approach takes to much time. Fedora doesn't have the tested and massive package support that Debian and Ubuntu has. Personally I prefer Debian with Ubuntu coming in second.
Other popular distros, such as the Redhat ES clones, Suse, Mandrake, and others I don't mess around with much. I'd use Suse or Redhat ES for businesses because of the support options, and Redhat for it's support of propriatory software and certification proccesses. But for home use I find having good package manangement tools combined with large number of aviable packages to be very attractive in a OS. (Debian/Ubuntu currently has over 16000 different programs and software aviable to it's end users, gigs and gigs of software)
It has all to do with Linux as well as MS. If i cant play the games i want to play without a bunch of hassle, its not going to work for me. I will however, use linux as a dual boot and use it for office stuff and email etc. I have no other use for it. So, for all instances i can do everything i want from windows. Its too bad too, because, i hate MS.
Linux is just too much work in my opinion compared to what i am used to with windows. That is my situation... not anyone elses. So remember, take that into consideration before posting something where i am the one that didnt work... i know i dont have the time to d1ck with it. I just want something that works.
because my car came with two keys ( now on the otherhand had the dealer handed me a key and I tried starting the car and the light on the dash lit up and said this key only works with 2 dealerships in southern Japan, then I probably would have yelled about that.)
And fedora should come with basic libraries to run if not vlc then at least play a freaking dvd on the one it came with totem-xine.
At least drag had some useful information not just a raving put down. have you ever considered drinking less coffee?
Welcome to the wonderful world of "I effed myself." You use Windows. Game makers make games for Windows. They don't make games for linux because not many gamers use Linux. Why don't gamers use Linux? Because game makers don't produce Linux games.
If gamers demanded Linux support en masse it would come. I hope you enjoy hugging your knees and staring at your feet. 🙂
drag: some good input thank you.
Yes, I have been very leery about mixing repositories.
last thing I tried from wieers didn't work wither downloaded his yum and all the mirrors timed out for 2 days straight so seemed to not work.
this one I tried was from freshrpm.org
I need to add that to my exsisting yum or do a second yum for them??...would seem I would want to update from one or the other all the time right?
I am hoping ubuntu has a bigger package selection but in the meantime have been using fedora to learn with.
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