Any word on when Mantle + TrueAudio will launch for Thief?

[OCGuy]

It has been two weeks since launch. I don't think Thief has the problems that BF4 had, so any word on what the deal is?

Does anyone own this game? I haven't heard much mention of it.

It is also supposed to be the first game to support TrueAudio once it patches, which will be the more interesting part to me.

Eidos Montreal has announced that the game they've been developing, Thief, will not come with support for AMD's Mantle API when it launches later this week. Instead, the title will initially only support DirectX, and a patch enabling Mantle will be made available during March.

The patch will also bring support for TrueAudio, making Thief the first game to utilize the dedicated DSP found on GCN 1.1-based graphics cards, such as the Radeon R9 290, R9 290X, R7 260 and R7 260X. TrueAudio shifts advanced audio processing from the CPU to the GPU's DSP, giving both better performance and more immersive audio experiences.

http://www.techspot.com/news/55773-eidos-delays-thiefs-mantle-api-support-until-march.html

 

[Skurge]

I own the game. Haven't installed it yet. I suspect they will wait till the last day of march.

 

[FalseChristian]

I like Mantle. I think it has potential and is only going to get better. I'm an NVidia nut but I was fond of Glide when 3Dfx was around as it looked better than Direct3D or OpenGL and, of course, was much faster than either.

 

[OCGuy]

I like Mantle. I think it has potential and is only going to get better. I'm an NVidia nut but I was fond of Glide when 3Dfx was around as it looked better than Direct3D or OpenGL and, of course, was much faster than either.

Wrong thread?

 

[Gloomy]

amd am cry?

Anyway, they're probably fixing the absolutely broken sound before they release TrueAudio.

I finally found a reviewer (Yahtzee) that mentioned the sound issues so I know it's not just brain or computer problems on my end. He didn't mention missing dialogue though, there's lots of that.

And oh boy, overlapping dialogue. I thought I had suffered a stroke when I spoke to the fat guy and found that I had lost my understanding of the English language. It turned out he grew a second larynx when I wasn't looking.

I no longer care about TrueAudio after actually playing the game. The most broken but physically correct audio in video game history doesn't interest me in the least. :|

On the other hand, if they fix it... well, it's not a horrible game otherwise. If you haven't started playing it yet, don't. Not worth it imo.

 

[Atreidin]

On the other hand, if they fix it... well, it's not a horrible game otherwise. If you haven't started playing it yet, don't. Not worth it imo.

That's the plan, I'll wait until the bugs are mostly worked out then try it out when it's on sale.

 

[JBT]

Got my copy with a 7870 earlier this year. Haven't played it just yet. Planned on it today, but Steam seems to be having issues...

 

[krumme]

The short demo of Thief true audio i did listen to was okey but imho not in any way using the possibilities of the tech. Sad because sound in games in general could really use a big overhaul.

As for using Mantle in this game seems utterly useless to me unless they need to port it to phones or let it be played on low end kabini machines at high setting. Lol. Man this game just looks so ue like and so dx9 to me. I am so tired of that engine on the pc. Its for midrange tablets now. Move on.

 

[OCGuy]

True audio is meant to move audio processing away from the CPU, not make things sound amazing.

It was made for consoles, so Xbone already is capable.

 

[blackened23]

The short demo of Thief true audio i did listen to was okey but imho not in any way using the possibilities of the tech. Sad because sound in games in general could really use a big overhaul.

As for using Mantle in this game seems utterly useless to me unless they need to port it to phones or let it be played on low end kabini machines at high setting. Lol. Man this game just looks so ue like and so dx9 to me. I am so tired of that engine on the pc. Its for midrange tablets now. Move on.

What kind of demo did you listen to? 3d positional audio effects do not translate over youtube or anything of the like. Even though I think the idea of adding positional audio to a GPU is frankly - stupid - it isn't something that can be judged by a video.

Also what you're saying on Thief. It blows my mind because you're bashing Thief for all the wrong reasons. It isn't a great game or even a good one (IMO), but graphics also have little bearing on gameplay. Old saying but it's true. Not every game is a crysis 3 and not every game needs to be a crysis 3. Titan Fall, for instance, doesn't have amazing graphics but the game is really freaking fun - insanely detailed graphics are nice but aren't a pre-requisite for a game being good. UE3 is also not a bad engine. It isn't crysis 3, but Epic updated it for DX11 and it isn't bad. The games using it should be judged on the actual gameplay - Borderlands 2, for instance, could be a great game whether it used Cryengine3 or UE3. It does UE3 and the game is amazing because the gameplay is really fun. But let's get back to thief. Thief is just a disappointment in general NOT due to the engine. The game doesn't live up to the prior games in the series, of which I was a huge fan of. The map design, storyline, and stealth elements are just not as good as what were in the prior games in the series.

I am curious as to where you heard this so called Thief True audio demo, though. Did you hear it in person or something? Because that's the only way you can get a meaningful idea of how good the tech is.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

What kind of demo did you listen to? 3d positional audio effects do not translate over youtube or anything of the like. Even though I think the idea of adding positional audio to a GPU is frankly - stupid - it isn't something that can be judged by a video.

Its not stupid its ingenious. They need the geometry data to calculate their sound. The GPU is the ideal place.

 

[blackened23]

That could be true if Dolby surround didn't exist and worked on everything. And then there are solutions on top of that which are even slightly better such as CL's SBX surround on their latest Z* cards. But everyone essentially ignores it and uses the crappiest realtek motherboard sound available. The vast majority of PC gamers aren't even using Dolby surround even though it's widely available and is excellent.

Conversely, the solution AMD is using is present in 1 game slated for 2014 as far as I can tell. That is of course thief and True audio is apparently still being worked on. I have not heard of other titles slated for 2014 - I could be wrong on this, If there are more let me know. The benefit of application specific programming when we already have dolby surround, which is excellent with headphones BTW, is questionable at best. As far as available titles being sparse, I mean AMD has to start somewhere. So they get some leeway there. They are just starting their thing with True Audio so we'll see where it ends up, I don't know.

Personally i'd prefer GPU R+D go towards GPU performance and features. That's just my opinion though, I guess we'll agree to disagree on this. Like I said...just my opinion, grain of salt applies, etc. In any case we'll see what true audio brings whenever it's ready in Thief. Maybe it can change my mind but based on what i've read? It isn't doing anything dramatically different than what existing solutions can do. I dunno. Like I said, we'll see. My thoughts are certainly subject to change once I actually hear it, but the descriptions weren't all too inspiring.

 

[Grooveriding]

How on Earth would Dolby surround or some junk on a Creative sound card be able to deliver true positional audio ? Obviously it needs to be built into the game engine and positioning coming from the GPU, which is drawing the area, makes perfect sense.

I'll wait till I heart it until I call it stupid or not...

 

[blackened23]

Yeah how on earth does Windows 7 and 8 have built in support for 5.1 surround already? How does Windows 7 and beyond have 5.1 positional audio built in DX already? This requires very little on the part of developers since 5.1 positional audio is a part of DirectX. As I said, most PC gamers just ignore it or are completely oblivious to it. And most of them are using the cheapest junk realtek motherboard sound they can possibly use, which doesn't help.

Anyway. We'll see what true audio brings when it happens. Maybe it can change my mind despite by skepticism, i'm not trying to create an endless circular debate here of dolby surround vs true audio... just my opinion, that's all. So i'll just hold further thoughts regarding true audio until it's ready.

 

[Hitman928]

Back to the OP, the last I heard was at launch when an article said that they expect the patch to come by the end of March. So probably the very end of March or later if they run into problems.

 

[OCGuy]

Back to the OP, the last I heard was at launch when an article said that they expect the patch to come by the end of March. So probably the very end of March or later if they run into problems.

Well the problems have already been ran into it appears. This delay isn't getting the press that BF4 did, but those in the industry who it is aimed at are more than likely noticing.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Yeah how on earth does Windows 7 and 8 have built in support for 5.1 surround already? How does Windows 7 and beyond have 5.1 positional audio built in DX already? This requires very little on the part of developers since 5.1 positional audio is a part of DirectX. As I said, most PC gamers just ignore it or are completely oblivious to it. And most of them are using the cheapest junk realtek motherboard sound they can possibly use, which doesn't help.

Anyway. We'll see what true audio brings when it happens. Maybe it can change my mind despite by skepticism, i'm no trying to create and endless circular debate here of dolby surround vs true audio... So i'll just hold further thoughts regarding true audio until it's ready.

The point is that the other methods are "faking" it. No one is disputing the fact that they work to provide positional audio. True audio actually uses the geometry data from the GPU to make the sound more true to life/the environment surrounding your character.

 

[BrightCandle]

DirectX isn't faking it, its using a genuine HRTF for taking 3D sound stage and mono sounds and playing them to the devices you have (headphones or speakers). The problem is its doing a poor job of it. Real binaural surround sound is actually really good, its incredibly accurate but the sort of thing we get in games isn't and I suspect that is just because the fidelity of the 4 domains of binaural sound aren't used because its too much computation (since its all done in software).

The creative soundblaster Z does quite a bit of enhancing of that surround sound from DX that produces a better positioning effect, but its still not very good in the grand scheme of things. TruAudio in theory at least could not only fix that but also do some form of beam forming to bounce sounds off the environment and give us ray traced sounds. Its probably not even remotely got enough performance on card for that but this is where sound needs to go to be really convincing.

 

[OCGuy]

The cards have a separate processor built into the GPU, it isn't the GPU itself.

Also it isn't going to make anything sound better by itself. It "gives sound engineers the freedom to follow their imaginations and the power to make their games sound as convincing as they look."

So unless someone decides to take the time to use it, all it does is unload processing power from the CPU, which was done in order to help weak/low clocked console CPUs.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/Pages/amd-trueaudio.aspx

 

[Will Robinson]

To add a little clarity:"By operating through the graphics driver, we aren’t held accountable to the limitations imposed on the hardware audio layer. We do not touch the Windows audio stack at all. TrueAudio offloads directly from the game via Wwise or FMOD, right at the point of conception, before the audio is sent through the rest of the audio pipeline to the user’s endpoint device (e.g. headsets). It’s real-time, it’s an earnest revival of advanced gaming audio

AMD TrueAudio comes into the audio chain at the application level, long before sound ever reaches the user’s audio chip or audio endpoint. Whether you have integrated audio on the motherboard, a discrete sound card, or a standalone USB headset, AMD TrueAudio is already part and parcel of the audio stream that’s being fed to these devices by the game’s audio engine. That’s the beauty of operating at the level of the audio library: it’s the first stop in the audio process! And because it’s the first stop, only AMD TrueAudio is fully aware of the game’s positional and environmental data."
AMD

 

[ocre]

Well the problems have already been ran into it appears. This delay isn't getting the press that BF4 did, but those in the industry who it is aimed at are more than likely noticing.

Its not getting the press because all the hype is faded. There is no one expecting a huge "splash" for Thief. To many, Mantle didnt turn out to be what they had hoped or hyped it up to be. Before they really didnt know what to expect. Imaginations ran wild. Speculations Wilder. Now, most of that is faded.

I just dont think there are too many that interested in mantle for Thief. Nowhere near the interest that it held in the wake of BF4. Its just not there.

I dont know if its a good thing or a bad one. See, this can play out to an advantage.....
without all the hype leading up to it there is a larger chance AMD can really impress. The element of an unexpected surprise, there is no equal.

or, the subject is just not all that interesting anymore. AMD had everyone's attention but now the crowds are walking away. Interest is just starting to fade.

Dont know where its going but I agree with you 1000%. This is not getting nowhere near the press Bf4 did. Not even a fraction of the buzz.....nowhere near the widespread interest.

 

[Headfoot]

Yeah how on earth does Windows 7 and 8 have built in support for 5.1 surround already? How does Windows 7 and beyond have 5.1 positional audio built in DX already? This requires very little on the part of developers since 5.1 positional audio is a part of DirectX. As I said, most PC gamers just ignore it or are completely oblivious to it. And most of them are using the cheapest junk realtek motherboard sound they can possibly use, which doesn't help.

Anyway. We'll see what true audio brings when it happens. Maybe it can change my mind despite by skepticism, i'm not trying to create an endless circular debate here of dolby surround vs true audio... just my opinion, that's all. So i'll just hold further thoughts regarding true audio until it's ready.

Hardware audio acceleration is gone since Vista, so all these great DX API bells and whistles come at the expense of CPU cycles that the developers generally spend on other things higher in the priority list. I'm not sure to what extent audio can be spun off into its own thread. It's my understanding some but not all audio processing can be done off of the main thread/compute threads. This calculus can change as you undertake more advanced audio techniques which is the point of offloading to an extra core or to a DSP in the case of the consoles and TrueAudio.

I really hope this takes off as I would love to see a resurgence of advanced audio techniques. My suspicion is that game companies are used to not spending much budget for dev/artist hours into audio (much less hiring more professional level sound designers) and the majority won't see the cost-benefit analysis going to TrueAudio's favor. Maybe they will in some of the music based games but those are also indie which have even less budget for elaborate sound design.

 

[blackened23]

Just to answer the above post: 3d hardware accelerated audio is not needed and has NOT been needed for YEARS because we passed the threshold of hardware accelerated sound being useful or required a long time ago. If it were needed, it would exist.

It is not needed. CPUs are so ridiculously fast now that positional audio processing is completely trivial with no effect on gaming performance. This was not the case in 1997. Look at the calendar. It is not 1997. We are not using Pentium-150s P55C CPUs. The times have changed. 3D audio acceleration made sense THEN. In 1999. 2000. Yes. Now? No. It isn't needed. If it were, it would exist in DX. Manufacturers move on because CPUs became exponentially powerful enough as to handle any audio related tasks with absolutely zero (in practical use, not literally) overhead.

So it's pretty strange to me when someone brings up hardware acceleration. It isn't the year 1999 anymore. It isn't a situation such as in 1999 where attempting to do any type of positional sound processing would tank your framerate by 1/3rd or more. Does that happen now? No. If you have positional audio, and most people do, enable 5.1 in your control panel and fire up Battlefield 3. Yes, dolby surround works in BF3. More than likely, most folks here are using crappy realtek motherboard sound so they won't notice a difference but the point remains. Use dolby surround in various games. To get good positional audio, you'll need a good set of cans or 5.1 speakers. But it works and is excellent positional audio. Anyway with 3d positional audio in BF3 - Is the framerate affected with dolby surround? Nope. Is there a reason for hardware acceleration for positional processing? Absolutely not. You're talking about something that has zero effect on framerate or performance. This was not the case in 1999. It is no longer 1999.

 

[BrightCandle]

Hardware acceleration isn't necessary for what they do today, which is near and far field HRTF transformations with a bit of reverb. But a higher quality HRTF takes up a lot more computation and beaming it around the environment and accounting for materials changes is definitely in the realms of ray tracing like computation overhead, its the same problem.

So while I agree what we do today doesn't require hardware acceleration we could have dramatically better sound if we had enough computation resources to do it, which we don't currently. Audio isn't done, its not a solved problem that can't improve, the very fact that a soundblaster z on 5.1 to headphones sounds is a lot more accurate for positioning than DX headphone mode tells us there is more to be done.

Microsoft didn't bring the 3D positioning into DirectX because there was no need for hardware anymore. It did it because its operating systems were getting crashed by two things - GPU drivers and sound drivers. They dramatically changed the driver interface for both, with GPUs they had no choice but to allow them in user space but minimised the interface they could have in the kernel to reduce crashing. But with sound they decided to do it all in software at a lower fidelity because it could be done on the CPU. There its stayed for years without any improvement. Before MS did that we were starting to see the emergence (from Aureal) of beamed environment bounced sound not just binaural surround sound and that was a big deal. Today with a sufficiently powerful card (I doubt TruAudio is that) we could have that and more.

I am constantly disappointed with surround sound today, its really poor quality compared to what we had a decade or more ago, a lot more can be done to produce compelling sound stage in games. A lot of it doesn't require these companies to do anything more, its the same interface as they have always been using (play a sound at position X,Y,Z with object moving at speed in x,y,z). The rest is all in the API. Clearly Microsoft isn't interested in doing this so its high time someone did, I am just disappointed its not Creative who should have been working on it for the last 10 years.

 

[wand3r3r]

<snip/>

It's a little early to argue so strongly "against" a technology you have never seen, isn't it?

Wouldn't you usually check the end result before forming a conclusion?